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Nothing I would say. Goons are doing a good job building up supers . They protect their miners for next year or so and will have a better cap force then NC and PL. With them letting people fight in the thunder dome they will have ton of peepons.

I'm sorry about not all moons need to bare T2 materials. This is eve and let's add a bit more to the table here. So place a different resources on the moons at the same time. I'm sure their a ton of players wanting to do this in empire. If it can't be t2 moon stuff then give us something else with this update. We all know once this feature hits you wont touch it for some time again.

You are absolutely right! But they’re not going to happen. As far as CCP is concerned the ‘small’ sizes are already in game and are the deployable like the mobile depot. What they are announcing is what we are getting.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6757639#post6757639


I wish it wasn’t so, I had high hopes for the new structures and hoped they would bring more granularity to the landscape. Instead they have removed rungs from the ladder at the bottom. And it’s not like the CSM or any of the regular ‘voices’ CCP listens too gives a crap about small scale groups or gameplay either. And for the ones that do, ‘small’ groups seem to be defined as over a hundred, not the many 1-30 man corps out there currently utilizing POS’s. Half the forum warriors from large groups will just yell ‘adapt or die’ (which should just be ‘adapt or unsub’) all while ignoring that the problem is options to adapt are being taken away from small groups with the new structures. It’s hard to ‘adapt’ when your choices are becoming more limited from what you had before.

Hell CCP didn’t even know that there was even any negative feelings towards these they are so disconnected with the small corp community.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6747090#post6747090

They REALLY needed to do a round table or something with smaller groups, but the fact they never did shows their level of concern is zero. Hell, I predict they will instead point to supper rich 1% indy guy who showers Mercs with banking ISK to keep him alive as ‘proof’ everyone can use these while the not so rich 20 man corp who had a POS and now want’s to build a home/base/indy startup will be told to just ‘uses someone else’s’. Just look at Fozzie’s reply on this thread about removing POS’s.The things that he is concerned about are not mobility for small groups, viable income for them or even the barrier to entry. It was all ‘cyno generators’ and ways for big guys to move caps.


CCP has raised the bar to structure ownership/gameplay significantly (all while marketing them to ‘everyone’), and have taken many of the financial niches that small groups use to keep up and handed them over to the big boys by default now. Just look at reactions. Right now there is kinda a soft upper limit to how many reactions a large scale/med operation can do based on how many POS’s the owners/logistic guys feels like dealing with, putting up, fueling, and managing (which is all a pain). But after these come out that limit disappears since there will be no limit to the amount of jobs per structure. So things where a small crop could buy the raw materials off the market and run some reactions at a no value moon to fill a gap in the market, or drug production are going to be gone since all production will be out of fewer of these run by larger groups (since they themselves will be able to fill those gaps on alts without the multiple POS hassle).

This is all great for the large scale industrialist, and the large groups needed the changes these structure are brining (I support most of the changes), but it really screws the little guy. Just like everything else about the new structures. And yet while with each new structure a larger part of the player base is feeling left out of CCPs vision for the game, CCP is really unwilling to even acknowledge it let alone talk about it with the small groups community.

[quote=


CCP has raised the bar to structure ownership/gameplay significantly (all while marketing them to ‘everyone’), and have taken many of the financial niches that small groups use to keep up and handed them over to the big boys by default now. Just look at reactions. Right now there is kinda a soft upper limit to how many reactions a large scale/med operation can do based on how many POS’s the owners/logistic guys feels like dealing with, putting up, fueling, and managing (which is all a pain). But after these come out that limit disappears since there will be no limit to the amount of jobs per structure. So things where a small crop could buy the raw materials off the market and run some reactions at a no value moon to fill a gap in the market, or drug production are going to be gone since all production will be out of fewer of these run by larger groups (since they themselves will be able to fill those gaps on alts without the multiple POS hassle).

This is all great for the large scale industrialist, and the large groups needed the changes these structure are brining (I support most of the changes), but it really screws the little guy. Just like everything else about the new structures. And yet while with each new structure a larger part of the player base is feeling left out of CCPs vision for the game, CCP is really unwilling to even acknowledge it let alone talk about it with the small groups community.[/quote]


Exactly what I've been trying to say. The limiting factor on pos's (or cits) is what makes running reactions a way to make a living. Hundreds of alts running reactions = fractional margins. It's handing that whole segment of the game to station traders and others that never undock.

Also makes basic t2 manu incredibly tedious. building slots, copy slots, invention slots, and now reaction slots too?

T2 was interesting because it required non-mine-able mats and you had to be inventive. Now it's all just different flavors of ore, bought and hauled from Jita.

There was always a mild SP barrier to entry into t2, but the real barrier was the complexity, logistics, and relationships required to build profitably. You might even invest in reaction towers to churn out finished reactions you used a lot of. Now u JF to Jita, consult your spreadsheet, buy the precise volumes needed of ice, standard minerals, mined moon mins and jf home and start cycling through alts and running jobs in the standard indy UI. Or you milk the local miners for mats at 85% of Jita buy cuz they don't have a jf and u won't work cheap.. lol.

• I like the idea of a new reprocessing skill for the moon materials but don't do it unless you pre-seed the skill book and give people enough time to train it to 5 before release. If you don't do that there will be a gap where suddenly everyone is stockpiling the raw material until they can refine it perfectly.
• Similarly, a new mining skill seems good but tie it to new T2 mining crystals. Newbros in their Ventures should be able to take part in this corp based activity without having to specialize into it too far.

Other than the already talked about reinforcement mechanics there's one other major issue with citadels that really needs addressing. By putting so much of the cost of these structures into the rigs and making the rigs so specialized at the smaller sizes CCP have effectively killed small group/solo industrialism.

I do capital production (not supers). Currently I use one high sec POS to do research and ore compression. The results of this get shipped to null sec where I do capital production inside several engineering complexes. On the null sec side there are already 3 complexes required: a Sotiyo/Azbel with T1 rigs for hull production (because T2 is so expensive), a Raitaru with T2 rigs for refining and capital component production and another Raitaru with T2 ME rigs for equipment, fighters and T2 components. With the refinery changes that's now adding a fourth structure in null sec and the high sec POS would need to be split out into two structure (assuming compression won't be available on Raitarus).

All of this adds up to 6 structures, each with 3-5b worth of rigs, to do the job I used to be able to do with one small POS and an outpost. Granted, the industrial bonuses in null sec are quite a bit nicer than they were then but I also don't get TE bonuses anymore because it doesn't make any sense to have one Raitaru per class of item that needs producing.

There is now an absolutely massive startup cost which completely prices small/new corps out of the industrial game unless they can rely on wealthy members or take advantage of infrastructure other corps in their alliance have set up.

Given that planets are what are barren or ice or plasma, etc. not moons exactly, I'd love to see this brought to wspace in this way. Allow barren planets to be fracked for ore and ice planets to be fracked for ice. This would naturally limit the number of resources available in wspace because planets are less numerous than moons and give wspace access to this mechanic without upsetting the balance of materials for T2.

Start stockpiling moon materials boys because people in lowsec wont mine moons anywhere near as much as current POS mechanic.

Is there any plan to introduce a structure that replaces the ability to house (even a single) dread/carrier for the cost of a ship maintenance array?

We must have access to a wide selection of moon goo so we can finally be self-sufficient. Let the chunks be completely random, with a higher chance of the good stuff if you have a large structure/t2 rig etc. If we don't all have to run to jita, that'd be great.

I'm okay with that!