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Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

First post First post First post
Author
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#401 - 2017-03-24 15:14:54 UTC
Sky Marshal wrote:
Rowells wrote:
zluq zabaa wrote:
Moon mining is not passive.

So when you warp away or log off for the night, the moon harvester turns off? Income generation halts?

If we follow this logic, market orders are passive income. CCP should nerf them.

That jump from passive to nerf bat wasn't logical at all.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#402 - 2017-03-24 15:17:43 UTC
Momiji Sakora wrote:
How about Fracking barren moons to generate ordinary ore anoms?

CCP Fozzie wrote:

Q: Can this new moon mining mechanic be expanded to include highsec and wormhole space?
A: As we mentioned in the blog we think this general mechanic has potential in other areas of space, but we're not currently planning on opening up collection of T2 moon materials into areas beyond lowsec and nullsec. We've run the number and we don't think diluting the sources of T2 materials across more areas of space would be beneficial to the feature.

This would be a good compromise.

Don't give us moon goo we don't need that space drama and risk adverse wardeccers and Nullsec botters. If anything, do this but give use ICE fields!

For the art department, give us something that ******* looks like space refineries, not random useless towers!
Gray Mare
WE Hate Corporations
#403 - 2017-03-24 15:33:27 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi again folks. Thanks as always for participating in the thread.
Let's do a bit of a Q&A to answer some of the questions we've been seeing come up repeatedly.

Q: What will happen to Siphons in the new system?
A: We currently plan to phase out siphons since they don't really fit with the new system (there will be much more direct ways to steal moongoo). Siphons were a solid attempt at achieving a worthy goal, but for a number of reasons that particular implementation was doomed to extremely niche status. We think that overall direct spaceship interaction will be a more fun way of engaging in guerilla attacks against moon mining infrastructure.

Q: Will Rorquals be able to dock in the large refinery?
A: Yes. The medium refineries will have the same docking restrictions as Astrahus and Raitarus, while the large will allow those ships plus the Rorqual thanks to dedicated Rorqual docking facilities. Non-Rorqual capitals will not be able to dock in the large refinery however.

Q: What types of ships will be able to mine the new ore spawned by moon mining events?
A: The new ores won't require special ships to mine. They'll be minable with the normal ore mining ships that are available today (including Rorquals).

Q: Will the new moon ore require new types of mining lasers and drones to mine?
A: Our current plan is to use the same mining lasers, strip miners and mining drones that currently mine the existing types of ore. We are interested in hearing what the community thinks about this however, and are keeping our options open.

Q: Can this new moon mining mechanic be expanded to include highsec and wormhole space?
A: As we mentioned in the blog we think this general mechanic has potential in other areas of space, but we're not currently planning on opening up collection of T2 moon materials into areas beyond lowsec and nullsec. We've run the number and we don't think diluting the sources of T2 materials across more areas of space would be beneficial to the feature.
However in future iterations we would be very interested in investigating expanding this same "scheduled mining event" gameplay to all areas of space using different resources. These might take the form of new resources or allowing the collection of existing resources such as normal minerals or T3 gasses.
For the first release we need to keep a reasonable scope so any expansion of that kind would need to come later if it comes. That also means that if we expand this gameplay to other resources in other areas we'll be able to integrate the lessons learned from the first release.

Q: Will starbases (POS) be removed when this feature is released?
A: No, the removal of starbases will be a gradual process and even with the release of refineries there will still be major starbase functions that are not yet replicated by new structures (cyno beacons, cyno jammers and jump bridges). We will have some news on the next steps towards the starbase phase out soon.



so no t2 strip miners.............
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#404 - 2017-03-24 15:34:22 UTC
zluq zabaa wrote:
So would you say taking a dump is active or passive? You press really hard and then relax and let gravity work for you... passive?
Once you hit and release the flush and then the water and suction will do the rest... passive?

Active. Shitting up forums without realizing it might be considered passive though.

zluq zabaa wrote:
What about AFK Mining, AFK Ratting?

Still active, even if the input requirements are lower. I you are not logged in and present, no progress is made. Arguments can be made its passive, but no progress is made when logged off.

zluq zabaa wrote:
If you give me - in my R16 example - 200M for warping a few systems, getting fuel, warping back, fueling pos, waiting 10 minutes, taking goo, hauling goo to market, selling goo. Is it less passive then in your eyes if the Goo would be created once a month in 10 minutes when I am actually there?

That would be active by your choice, not design. I can set up PI to do a similar thing, but it will still very much be considered a passive income source by majority of people you ask.

zluq zabaa wrote:
There are things that require more or less activity, different kinds of activity, but they all do. There is no passive income. If in your personal view hauling, selling and caring about infrastructure is less active than flying a ship to (x,y,z) in space and start your auto-targeting something, well it might just be that you judge to your own preferences.

You want to know what truly separates active from passive income in great majority of situations? Ask yourself: Is progress toward the task completion still generated after pilot involvement has entirely ceased?

Not everything falls into the straight and narrow, but here's a few examples of you're typical passive/active incomes (by design not choice):

Passive
- Planetary Interaction
- Industry/Research Jobs
- Moon Mining
- Market buy/sell orders (not immediate orders)

Active
- Mining
- Ratting (including missions/incursions/sleepers/etc)
- Hauling
- Exploration

The first list includes activities that do not require a pilot to be active or even online for progress to be made. The second list has activities that completely cease once the pilot logs off. No further generation or progress is made.
Sylvia Kildare
Kinetic Fury
#405 - 2017-03-24 15:39:09 UTC
JTK Fotheringham wrote:
Will we be able to set a tax on these jobs?
While we're talking about taxes - will ore compression become a taxable feature?

Will there be a limit of one refinery per moon, or will an alliance be able to set up say half a dozen, and have one extracting a chunk of moon per day?


A) if you take the survey they want us to take, there's a question in there about making compression taxable. I hope they leave it free, though, as a consumer of free compression services (and cheap refining/reprocessing, which is more worth paying for).

Or if not... could the Orca get the ability to compress ore or ice in its ore hold, pllllz?

B) I believe I read that while refineries can be built int he same areas with the same restrictions/distance limitations as citadels and engineering complexes, only one refinery per moon-goo-having moon may turn on its moon drill at a time. Presumably after the moon chunk is turned into a belt, that refinery could shut down its moon drill and another refinery within range of the moon could have a turn?

ArmyOfMe wrote:
Also, even tho making this an active thing, it will make life in low sec even harder, as most large alliances in low sec doesnt have industrialists in their ranks.


Perhaps they should start recruiting some, then.

Also, I have a feeling lowsec corps and alliances probably have more industrialists/miners in their ranks than they realize. Some may just do it on their alts or not talk about it much since they figure their corpmates are all PVP-only folks. Everyone assuming that about each other and then it turns out they all have a secret mining habit. heh.

I knew a couple incursion boxers who had a few toons in lowsec corps and enjoyed both PVP and industry in low/null, so... they're out there. Just gotta find 'em.
Trixi Laminer
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#406 - 2017-03-24 15:39:35 UTC
Lunarstorm95 wrote:
RIP alliance srp for small-medium size alliances (not like free ships did anything in the way of content anyways, right guys?)

Also RIP t2 in general... incoming rebirth of t3 meta


you know t3 geting hit with rebalancing pass this summer right?
Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#407 - 2017-03-24 15:43:36 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hi again folks. Thanks as always for participating in the thread.
Let's do a bit of a Q&A to answer some of the questions we've been seeing come up repeatedly.

Q: What will happen to Siphons in the new system?
A: We currently plan to phase out siphons since they don't really fit with the new system (there will be much more direct ways to steal moongoo). Siphons were a solid attempt at achieving a worthy goal, but for a number of reasons that particular implementation was doomed to extremely niche status. We think that overall direct spaceship interaction will be a more fun way of engaging in guerilla attacks against moon mining infrastructure.



Could they not be used as a personal moon mining array, bringing up say one asteroid instead of an entire field?
AOAm Adranas'Lira
Atreidun Order
#408 - 2017-03-24 15:48:48 UTC
I like the sounds of this.

My only comments would be I understand not diluting the T2 resources pool down by adding mineable moons all over high sec. Risk verses rewards must stay balanced. I do think it would be interesting though see drills being deployed somehow in high sec though. If it is introducted it should be restricted to 0.5, perhaps 0.7 systems or lower. I also came up with two other options for deployment.

1. Moon mining activity spawns standard ores for collection (Veldspar, Plagioclase, etc). Maybe some mid-grade ores. I realize this doesn't fall in line with the idea of moon goo, but just a thought.
2. If moon products were introduced into high sec, they need to be lower value, and lower qualities than would be present else where in space (null, etc). Important to keep risk/reward in check. This is were usage in lower security system would be important; so they wouldn't pop up everywhere.

Thanks for the info Fozzie.
Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#409 - 2017-03-24 15:50:41 UTC
Fredric Wolf wrote:


First off I already have the skill don't attack me because you can't be bothered to look and see that alpha clones do not have deep core mining on their skill tree. How about you not being lazy with your quick attacks


Let's try this again.

T2 production is one of the few industry areas that actually have some decent skill requirements to produce stuff. High skill requirements are a good thing, because it limits the number of people that choose to pursue that niche of EVE.

Do I care that alpha's can't use deep core equipment? no.

Do I care if CCP changes it so alpha's can use deep core equipment? no.

The skills and equipment required for a good moon goo operation should be based on how specialized the other areas are. Even gas harvesting has its own modules and skills.

Whether or not alpha's can participate should not lead the decision on how to set up the system. The system should be set up, and then alpha access can be determined afterwards. Does that mean alpha's gain deep core mining? maybe, maybe not.
Infamous en Distel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#410 - 2017-03-24 15:56:45 UTC
I have not been able to read the whole forum post, so maybe this is redundant in some ways.

As people have mentioned, a fair portion of the process of creating moon materials is automated, for theory's sake 1 person could operate and manage 5-10 moon mining control towers. In this new system, that number could flip to now need 5 people to maintain the same production rate per day per moon that the current system operates at.

If there is a concern over lack of player involvement that could disrupt the production of T2 materials, could a mining module for the refinery itself be considered?

This module would cost 1 High slot, and burn down the capacitor of the refinery so it could operate for 15 minutes / hour or so (don't know off the top of my head what the recharge rate on the capacitor would be). Burning the Cap on the tower would come with the inherent disadvantages of not being able to use its defensive modules as long as initially planned.

The aim would be to make the module capable of mining enough resources to maintain 40-50% of the current daily production rates, through the power of 1 person and a moderate time investment, on a belt that takes 24H to spawn.

I really like the idea of turning moon mining into an operation more players can be involved in, but the types of miners I know of are very risk averse and may not be interested in mining in lowsec.
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#411 - 2017-03-24 15:57:50 UTC
Zanar Skwigelf wrote:
Fredric Wolf wrote:


First off I already have the skill don't attack me because you can't be bothered to look and see that alpha clones do not have deep core mining on their skill tree. How about you not being lazy with your quick attacks


Let's try this again.

T2 production is one of the few industry areas that actually have some decent skill requirements to produce stuff. High skill requirements are a good thing, because it limits the number of people that choose to pursue that niche of EVE.

Do I care that alpha's can't use deep core equipment? no.

Do I care if CCP changes it so alpha's can use deep core equipment? no.

The skills and equipment required for a good moon goo operation should be based on how specialized the other areas are. Even gas harvesting has its own modules and skills.

Whether or not alpha's can participate should not lead the decision on how to set up the system. The system should be set up, and then alpha access can be determined afterwards. Does that mean alpha's gain deep core mining? maybe, maybe not.


T2 production shouldn't change what skills are used but right now to harvest moon goo you need anchoring lvl 3 that is not at all skill intensive.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#412 - 2017-03-24 16:02:10 UTC
Just going to add, as i mentioned on slack, please make the timer for when the drill makes the belt publicly available. I live in a wormhole and plan to try and ninja moon goo, so it would be really handy to warp tot he structure and see if the belt is coming soon or if i should close my hole and move on.

That and as a former sov holder it would be nice to not have to answer the question of 'hey reap, when will the belt spawn?' from alliance members daily.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

tarkathian
Fuel Blocks for Dante
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#413 - 2017-03-24 16:02:46 UTC
so, by adding a huge time sink for miners(this is not a complaint), will you then boost the harvester drone mining amount again to compensate for the loss of time mining normal minerals? as this is going to mean a lot less "normal" minerals being harvested, especially if you have hundred's of moon roid belts being mined every week in some of the larger allianes?
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#414 - 2017-03-24 16:17:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mai Khumm
Infamous en Distel wrote:
I have not been able to read the whole forum post, so maybe this is redundant in some ways.

Come back after you read it, and the Devblog.

As people have mentioned, a fair portion of the process of creating moon materials is automated, for theory's sake 1 person could operate and manage 5-10 moon mining control towers. In this new system, that number could flip to now need 5 people to maintain the same production rate per day per moon that the current system operates at.

Good!

If there is a concern over lack of player involvement that could disrupt the production of T2 materials, could a mining module for the refinery itself be considered?

Obviously not, T2 anything is too cheap nowadays. It needs a price balance.

This module would cost 1 High slot, and burn down the capacitor of the refinery so it could operate for 15 minutes / hour or so (don't know off the top of my head what the recharge rate on the capacitor would be). Burning the Cap on the tower would come with the inherent disadvantages of not being able to use its defensive modules as long as initially planned.

You obviously have no idea how Structure Vulnerability works...

The aim would be to make the module capable of mining enough resources to maintain 40-50% of the current daily production rates, through the power of 1 person and a moderate time investment, on a belt that takes 24H to spawn.

The whole point of Moongoo rebalancing is to make it not AFK. This was said, literally in the first sentence when this was announced!

I really like the idea of turning moon mining into an operation more players can be involved in, but the types of miners I know of are very risk averse and may not be interested in mining in lowsec.

Whenever something is reworked, it's impossible to please everyone...oh, and obviously the whole risk vs. reward thing.

The whole point is to make moon goo not AFK anymore, and Fozziesov for people to actually use the space!

Nullsec income needs to be less AFK orientated!
Somethingski
Bunnyhop and Bears
#415 - 2017-03-24 16:32:19 UTC
Hi if i have 3 refinery's on a moon with one miner active and someone else puts up 3 refinery's and then kills my active one are we going to clickspam in the other 5 refinery's and let RNGeesus decide who gets the miner active? currently if you kill a pos you can hold grid and put a new one up but i assume that wont be the case with the new structures.
Leo Augustus
Rolex Classic
#416 - 2017-03-24 16:42:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Leo Augustus
Where are all these supposed miners coming from?

I've never seen a nul or ls corp or alliance turning down applications cuz they just have too many miners.

Plus no one likes dying over and over, so rental or noob miners would need protecting. So now, half your alliance has to babysit them or be posted up spotting for them three gates out.

In that case, you might as well just plex a handful of mining toons, plex them in npc corp, allow them docking access, and let them die whenever. Ship losses and plex expenses get calculated into material sell price.

Quite possibly the fuel requirements for a clone bay will be added to moon product prices as well, cuz seriously, who wants to fleet in barges. JC in mining alts from one moon mega alliance holds to the next and mop up the goo on a schedule.

I see where everyone's heart is in the right place. It's just not gonna shake out how you'd like.

So now the moon guru and the miining director's positions are more closely aligned and the really big boys no longer have to bother dropping cits to get content.

Hell, maybe they don't even have to bother maintaining moon ops at all. Why bother when they can simply drop in on neighbors at harvest time, brush aside your fleet, and mine the goo while you pay the fuel bill.

Go ahead and try to start a fight with them over it.. caps will just drop and crush u. These guys are dropping and letting cits die undefended half the time simply in search of content, on the off chance they'll have people online and kicking ur as* is convenient for them at that moment. If not, they just lose the cit and care about as much as I would losing a gecko.

Plus, this looks like a pretty permanent situation, given that the existing system was going for over a decade.

Mining is all well and good. I used to freaking love it. I know a lot of people enjoy it. Give it two or three years, trust me, the thrill wears off.... all the way off.

I'm just not seeing the upside to significantly increasing the mining demand and demand for dedicated miner toons. Most, not all, look forward to the day they can graduate from mining and do something a bit more active. With all this new mining required, there's no end in sight, for any of us.

Providing a little spice and opportunity for the <10M SP crowd to get some cool goo... I get that, I support that. Still there has to be a better mechanic to allow for that than mining.

Please find a way that refinery cits can continue to soak up the reactions passively while still leaving the floating asteroids, chunks, dust, whatever, exposed to theft... Like ESS-style theft.

Stealing ship lands, activates "fracking" or "jackhammer" module, fills up on unrefined promethium, and tries to make it home alive. This would be fantastic for wh'ers.

The huge alliances feel the pinch some on distant moons, cuz the one thing they can't do is be everywhere at once. Perhaps some far-flung r64's and 32's are eventually conceded owing to attrition and lack of profitability. I guarantee you they'll find the time to be there though if anyone brings Rorq's, Orcas, or even a dozen exhumers on field. They freaking live off of those tears.
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Brave Collective
#417 - 2017-03-24 16:58:59 UTC
Leo Augustus wrote:
I guarantee you they'll find the time to be there though if anyone brings Rorq's, Orcas, or even a dozen exhumers on field. They freaking live off of those tears.

a dozen properly set up exhumers are not to be trifled with haha
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
#418 - 2017-03-24 17:00:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Nana Skalski
zyalino
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#419 - 2017-03-24 17:04:06 UTC
will the moon goo asteroids chunk be placed next to the citadell?
because, if yes, i understand that mining ops will take place within docking or at least tethering range. will the mining, or locking, of asteroids generate a weapons timer?


with the removal of siphons, do i understand right, that there won't be a way to steal from reactions anymore?

whatever

Wiera Yezalel
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#420 - 2017-03-24 17:07:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Wiera Yezalel
Edit..


Got my brain back, asked stupid question.