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Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

First post First post First post
Author
zluq zabaa
Inhumanum Legionis
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#221 - 2017-03-23 03:57:31 UTC
SIEGE RED wrote:
zluq zabaa wrote:

First here is my counter-proposal:
Basic idea: make Moon-Mining more Active by not making it a stupid AFK-Mining-Fleet.
...
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6883034#post6883034


Duh, I thought this was pretty clear already. Doesn't take a genius, EVE has experience with the introduction of this kind of systemic mechanisms with origins in mechanical (as opposed to behavoural) focus. It's an exact repeat of the POS Moon Mining introduction once upon a time.


I wasn't looking for your confirmation of me being a genius, which I naturally wouldn't do, be it only for the reason that I doubt you could see one if you met one. To be blunt, I don't like your smug way of telling CCP "you are almost there" while basically taking over other peoples arguments and blunting them by mixing them with some text-book 2nd year undergraduate psychological system and game theory boredom, which you obviously are able to repeat, but don't seem to understand. Otherwise you'd be able to either condense your very simple thoughts into a simple "yep, bla" or be able to bring something deeper into the discussion than generalized talk about form, function, behaviour and structure. Don't get me wrong here: I think using theory can be an important part of understanding what we need in this game. But for this to work you actually need to be able to apply theory and not merely repeat the words you've learnt somewhere and trying to push your very basic understanding of a few things over the complex social world that EVE is after all, like some clowns mask over a face. If that is your personal need to give yourself the feeling to grasp EVE in some way, so be it. I will read your postings and I will think my part about this wannabe intellectual try hard posture. But please, don't be so smug - and I happily repeat myself - to tell CCP "you are almost there" as if you would understand any of it.

So kindly take your "Duh" and smear it into your hair.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#222 - 2017-03-23 04:14:37 UTC
Leo Augustus wrote:
Querns wrote:
Leo Augustus wrote:
Moons won't be "freed up." It's just more tedium to extract the goodies.

Anyone planning on taking a fleet of hulks into PL space to mine under their cit's guns, nm their fleet?

Sign me up for that.. lol.


Moons will be "freed up" in the sense that it makes zero sense to pay fuel every month to hold a moon that you lack the manpower to exploit.


We have hostile cits and pos's dropped in our space simply to generate content on the off chance that the deploying force has the peeps online to defend. Often they don't and it dies without a fight. I wouldn't count on rational thought dictating behavior


Sure, dropping the odd structure to provoke folks is one thing, but the idea that we or PL or anyone would simply drop structures on every money moon, especially outside our/their immediate tantrum radius, for no gain, is simply absurd. That shit costs money.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Sullen Decimus
Polaris Rising
The Bastion
#223 - 2017-03-23 04:15:17 UTC
Locke Beulve wrote:


Quote:
The existing reactions will be converted to new blueprints that enable the reaction process in the new system, and new reactions will include small amounts of ice products in each run to compensate for the lower number of starbase towers needed for advanced industry.


Whoaaaaaa there. Already ice products are required to be used to fuel these structures, which makes use of ice mats. There's no need to go overboard and make the fuel block prices skyrocket even more then they already are from shortages of Strontium. There is huge potential for these new structures, but lets not reinvent the wheel here.


This will be absolutely necessary. You can now essentially do ALL of your reactions in a single structure. Without this a huge portion of the isotope demand in the game would die as one of the single largest consumers of isotopes is reaction farms.

CSM XI Member

Twitter: Sullen_Decimus

Tweetfleet: @sullen_decimus

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#224 - 2017-03-23 04:15:42 UTC
FeMalogalotalotim wrote:
Quote:
The Mining Ledger

With all this new activity around the moons of New Eden, the corporations claiming the moons will need new tools for tracking what’s going on in their territory. The mining ledger is the new open-ended tool for Refinery owners to keep track of who is mining in their belt.


Remove that **** option and it will be ok i think. Otherwise all the big alliances will simply use smaller players to make money for them, i.e. more money and less work.


Not going to happen. In order to make it worthwhile to actually drop these things, tracking is needed.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#225 - 2017-03-23 04:16:44 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:
Let's make the game even duller than it already is by now making people mine instead of PVP enjoying the beautiful parts of the game, instead treat eve like your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th job...


So don't mine if you don't want to mine?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#226 - 2017-03-23 04:18:25 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:
This suggestion doesn't even come close to gaming style and personas. Do some research and you'll see people who play MMORGP's want to do things solo and in small groups... When will Fozzie learn this?


I am pretty sure you can mine in small groups. You can also shoot miners in small groups.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

LTC Vuvovich
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#227 - 2017-03-23 04:23:18 UTC
Hello Everyone,

My optimism upon reading this blog on Refineries could only be described as a 'mixed bag' ... maybe good and maybe not. What I fear most is that the structure will not even come CLOSE to fulfilling it's greatest potential. So with that having been said... I'd like to make a few suggestions in earnest.

1. The new Upwell Refinery Structure should have the capability of producing system wide mining bonuses (like Rorquals and Orcas used to do).

a. One possible benefit this could have obviously, is eliminating but not replacing 3 different 'boosting' vessels ( namely Rorquals, Orcas, and Porpoises). This would be extremely beneficial to Corporations/Alliances that routinely conduct larger scale mining ops and it would almost certainly streamline things logistically speaking for sure.

b. Lets say for instance a Medium Refinery is given mining bonuses commensurate with Orcas and a Large Refinery is likened to Rorqual bonuses. Both can be achieved through the proper creation and utilization of M-Standup and L-Standup refinery modules. As these new structures are intended to be geared toward the Industrial way of life... they should already include reprocessing and compression as standard features much like the automatic transmission is put in nearly every car and truck that is built on the planet Earth.

c. If the new refinery structure is going to be of any real use to miners in the same manner by which I am suggesting... it must also have the capability of handling Fleet/Wing/Squad command structures. The 'new' refinery structure should include a newly devised Standup module that would receive and re-transmit signals from the Mining Foreman Mindlink implant set and I believe this 'new' Standup module should give the structure owner the ability to allow or disallow this role/permission much the same way access to the station is granted.

2. Create a 'new' Mining Industrial Ship to haul what the Rorqual, Orca, and Porpoise does now. The only class of ships in the Eve Items Database that has not had a major overhaul or revamp are the Industrials. Give it some decent cargo capacity - somewhere between what Freighters and Jump Freighters haul but with a tad more speed outright or by use of low slots or both...!!! : )

3. I hope CCP that you will seriously consider making the new refinery structure WORTHY of its POTENTIAL, its ownership and subsequent deployments. Citadels are a dime a dozen... seems like everybody has one so what. A structure devised like what I am suggesting would be a crown's jewel in any Corporation's or Alliance 's portfolio... give the damn thing some real gusto, give it something really worthy of being both attacked and defended, but it needs its drawbacks as well. I would not recommend making them so easily available. A structure such as this... should require some pretty heavy duty operating costs to go along with it.
Ukiah Spyker
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2017-03-23 04:26:20 UTC
Will you remove POS's when reactions and moon mining are implemented? How much time do I have or should I just assume this is ready to go now? I figure if I take my POS's down now, I might recover the 5 Billion I just spent on setting up two reaction towers, but if I wait, I'll have to write off the ivnestment as a total loss.
FeMalogalotalotim
Renegade Stars
Stellae Renascitur
#229 - 2017-03-23 04:31:52 UTC
Querns wrote:
FeMalogalotalotim wrote:
Quote:
The Mining Ledger

With all this new activity around the moons of New Eden, the corporations claiming the moons will need new tools for tracking what’s going on in their territory. The mining ledger is the new open-ended tool for Refinery owners to keep track of who is mining in their belt.


Remove that **** option and it will be ok i think. Otherwise all the big alliances will simply use smaller players to make money for them, i.e. more money and less work.


Not going to happen. In order to make it worthwhile to actually drop these things, tracking is needed.



Ofcouse its not going to happen because not only goon but all alliance want to HAVE control and get funded by doing nothing. Or u want to tell me that Goons/whoever are going to go mine in system where they dont have presence and only got the sov? :) I dont think so....
Nerriana
Avanto
Hole Control
#230 - 2017-03-23 04:53:37 UTC
The Idea for "mining ledger" sounds like far too much automated intel for big blocks. Where is the commitment to deliberately allowing scamming, stealing and other shenanigans?

Making it possible for dishonest miners and/or mining coordinators to skim a bit is not a bug, it's a feature on EvE. What we really do not need is an automated bookkeeping system for big alliances to "big brother" their serfs.

Likewise, we don't want an automated system to monitor resources (what spontaneously-disintegrating moon goo field would be) so that aforementioned big alliances can know exactly who ninja-mined their semi-abandoned resources. This monitoring could become a seed for OTEC cartel 2.0, with big alliances more concerned of preventing protecting and exploiting their chokehold on critical materials.

On same vein the sizes of spawned moongoo-asteroids and the amount of moongoo they contain should be somewhat randomized. I know this would be a change from current steady-flow moon mining, but see above regarding opportunities for skimming.

Otherwise the idea sounds an improvement for current moon mining situation.
Delekon
Art Of Explosions
#231 - 2017-03-23 05:05:51 UTC
Things to put into WH moons: better ore than belts, ice, wh gas.

This is a nice mechanic and i think it can be implemented to whspace providedbit does not yield T2 stuff.
Proteus Smith
Covert Reconnaissance and Acquisitions Bureau
#232 - 2017-03-23 05:40:31 UTC
Personally speaking, I kind of like the idea that CCP is making heavily passive parts of the game more active. I think that this will create all new kinds of social dynamics and ways to play the game. That said, I feel that there will need to be an increase in the output of any given moon's overall yield per month, due to the high likelihood of harassment from external (and some internal) sources that will curtail the amount of moongoo successfully harvested and retrieved by the corp owning the refinery. This will encourage corps and alliances to find better ways to manage their moons and even create more PvE and PvP content, perhaps by baiting enemies with juicy mining barges.

In regards to what the moons will generate, I don't see much of a reason for the moons of nullsec and lowsec to change at all. It seems to have done well this far anyways. But when it comes to the moons of highsec and wormholes, I feel that there should be a different type of extracted item for players to collect to help keep the economy healthy, and still provide an opportunity for players in those systems to play with these features. I think that the old "Alloys and Compounds" could make a strong comeback in these areas. Obviously each moon should only be able to provide certain types of these items, and in different amounts depending on system stats. Of course these moons could also include more standard ores and ices, at the CCP's discretion.

But that's just my two cents.
Yetimal Mallet
The Final Gate
French ConneXion.
#233 - 2017-03-23 05:52:27 UTC
So the structure such like Personal hangar array will desapear ?

and i guess u cannot solo kill a dread with a reffineries... and the moon goo is now activ isk ?

that a violent change...
Ukiah Spyker
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2017-03-23 06:01:43 UTC
Proteus Smith wrote:
Personally speaking, I kind of like the idea that CCP is making heavily passive parts of the game more active. I think that this will create all new kinds of social dynamics and ways to play the game. That said, I feel that there will need to be an increase in the output of any given moon's overall yield per month, due to the high likelihood of harassment from external (and some internal) sources that will curtail the amount of moongoo successfully harvested and retrieved by the corp owning the refinery. This will encourage corps and alliances to find better ways to manage their moons and even create more PvE and PvP content, perhaps by baiting enemies with juicy mining barges.

In regards to what the moons will generate, I don't see much of a reason for the moons of nullsec and lowsec to change at all. It seems to have done well this far anyways. But when it comes to the moons of highsec and wormholes, I feel that there should be a different type of extracted item for players to collect to help keep the economy healthy, and still provide an opportunity for players in those systems to play with these features. I think that the old "Alloys and Compounds" could make a strong comeback in these areas. Obviously each moon should only be able to provide certain types of these items, and in different amounts depending on system stats. Of course these moons could also include more standard ores and ices, at the CCP's discretion.

But that's just my two cents.


It may already be the case, but it would be an interesting twist to the game to set up the production chains such that you cannot run a Refinery or Moon Mining operation without a steady stream of WH materials. For example, the moon blasting operation might require a special propellant material that can only be obtained from WH asteriod belts or gas clouds. Doing this would require the major NullSec corps to interact with WH corps. Currently these seem to be two disparate groups with their own flavor of SOV, and WH corps are already dependent on Null Sec corps as they cannot build T2 ships or modules (which are required for WH security) without Null Sec support. This could eithe create significant content as NullSec corps would now be required to constantly scan for wormholes and then "mine" in them, or pay a significant tax to WH SOV alliances who could use the revenue to take control of Null Sec moons.
Bussan
Kabukicho
#235 - 2017-03-23 07:16:12 UTC
The new moon mining system sounds interesting and fun, but there will be some quite big problems about it...

The main one is that you move something from a completely automatic and unattended system to a very active one.
It means that nearly all the moons that are haversted now, will become unused.
Why? Because most of the moongoo is made from big alliances, whith hundreds of POSes around null.
After the changes, they will only keep the most valuable ones, as much as they can actually keep mining every week (or whatever the settings will be). All the other moons will be freed.
This will lead to a very big rebalance of T2 prices, as the available moongoo in the hubs will be a LOT less than now.

Moreover the basic system will remain the same... few big alliances will own 80% of the moongoo market (talking about value, not quantity).

In order to make things more interesting and open to as many players as possible, few changes would imho be important:

1. Every moon should have way more kinds of moongoo.

Maybe not all the kinds of moongoo, but something like the PI materials distribution on planets.... maybe keeping max 1 r64 per moon, 1-2 r32, and so on... and a total of 5-8 different types on every moon,
The materials should be random, included the quantity, but could be tied to "moon type" and true sec. A little bit like the ore belts.

2. Open the moon mining to HS and WH.

In LS it's actually quite hard to mine... in Null the mined moons will be a lot less than now... and the alliances will focus on the best ones... So we will need a way to have enough low-end moongoo, not to completely crash the market.
Following my suggestion #1, in HS it would be possible to mine mostly low-med end materials, with small quantities of higher ones.
In WH it should be possible to get the same ones as in null... but most of the people living in WH won't mine them anyway.
At least, having the chance of doing it would be an improvement to the gameplay, wouldn't ruin anything.
And at least it would give some value for these structures in HS... the way they are now, they can only be used to refine ores.
Pestilen Ratte
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#236 - 2017-03-23 07:37:50 UTC
I have taken time to reflect on these changes.

What?

More mining. Really?

Really, CCP?

You think the way to move the game forward is to spend vast numbers of man hours....... giving us more mining?

But it isn't really "more", is it? We don't get anything new out of this. No new ships. No new modules with new mechanics that effect combat.

It is a skin change on the already existing mining mechanic.

That's it.

That is, frankly, incredibly lazy and arrogant conduct by the directors responsible. If you turned in that kind of work, for that budget of time and treasure, at my company, I would sack you with no comment.

It is massive, open show of disrespect by the directors at CCP. they have stopped worked and downed tools.

The owner wants to sell and the directors have gone militant and downed tools.

Fascinating stuff.

twoflower Secret
Federation Star Invention
#237 - 2017-03-23 07:46:10 UTC
Hi

Can you please look into fuel costs of the Citadels, a alarmingly growing number of Citadels in hi-sec (no experiences in low/null-sec) is not fueled and thus necessary services are not available. In the region I travel more than 50% of the citadels seems not fuelled at all.

Giving the fuel costs Citadels seems like a big money pit for most smaller corporations (<10 member). Low or no tax to attract customers for a refinery does not make it any better for the competition.

Please do a count of how much of the cited 7800 corps have one or more Citadels with only the free services running (repair/insurance/storage/offices).
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#238 - 2017-03-23 08:08:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Drago Shouna
twoflower Secret wrote:
Hi

Can you please look into fuel costs of the Citadels, a alarmingly growing number of Citadels in hi-sec (no experiences in low/null-sec) is not fueled and thus necessary services are not available. In the region I travel more than 50% of the citadels seems not fuelled at all.

Giving the fuel costs Citadels seems like a big money pit for most smaller corporations (<10 member). Low or no tax to attract customers for a refinery does not make it any better for the competition.

Please do a count of how much of the cited 7800 corps have one or more Citadels with only the free services running (repair/insurance/storage/offices).



I fully agree, the one in my home system put up by a largish corp The Night Crew is now unfuelled so no processing or compression.

It was always going to come down to the cost, and if large corps and alliances are letting them go dormant then there's no hope whatsoever for the smaller guys, unless they want to buy a plex a month just to keep one running, with a reasonable chance of a wardec and it being hit as well.

Now they want more expensive targets in space, well at least they'll be mainly in null because for the life of me I can't see a role for them in HS.

As for the mechanics surrounding moon goo when these go live, yeah I can agree with that, it's about time the major null blocks had to do some work to collect the isk they are used to getting afk.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#239 - 2017-03-23 08:08:53 UTC
1. About what amount of ISKs we are talking with passive moon mining here, from a single moon? I'm glad that passive income will go away (burn it with fire!) but judging from Rorqual thread changes, our min-max community with as little effort as possible, I presume negative reception.
2. Refineries will have mining bonuses (mining ledger, moon mining, refine bounses) what will driling platforms have?
3. I'm kinda lost when it comes to citadels. We will have specialized structures soon, what is the purpose of "Citadels" when more specialized EC, Refineries, Drilling platforms and more will come?
4. POS - remove? when? Outposts--->Citadels, POS--->?
5. Economy earthquake (passive gathering into active) and how to avoid it?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Aspecter en Welle
Iris Covenant
The Gorgon Empire
#240 - 2017-03-23 08:41:51 UTC
1. We will mine new types of ore with Moon materials. Will reprocessing skills affect the efficiency of reprocessing this ore?
2. Can i compress new tupes of moon ore?
2.1 Can i compress moon ore on Upwell Refinery Complex?
3. BIGGEST BOOMS! Chunk of the moon Iwill be beautiful to blow up?
4. Blueprints. Do i need to reseach moon, polymer and booster reactions BPOs?
4.1 Price for reacion BPOs?
5. Moon ore will give only moon materials or normal minerals too? Tritanium maybe

ex-RusEVERadio leader

Ireland - terrorists and guiness. Iceland - ice and Eve