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Dev blog: Introducing Upwell Refineries

First post First post First post
Author
Dark Lord Trump
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#161 - 2017-03-22 21:05:01 UTC
Will I be able to get multiple moon materials from one moon with the changes? For example, will a Dysprosium moon spawn rocks that yield only Dysprosium, or will they refine into multiple minerals, such as Titanium or Technetium as well? Will I be able to get small amounts of rarer moons from a lower-tier moon? Will there be new mining crystals for these moon materials?

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!

Hoshi
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#162 - 2017-03-22 21:07:13 UTC
Querns wrote:
mkint wrote:
Hooray, even stricter dividing lines between the mega-alliance-null-stagnation and the 90%-of-the-playerbase! Exactly what this game needed! The barriers of entry to go from difficult to impossible! awesome!


So the large number of moons being freed up because of a need for active mining is somehow going to make "stagnation" worse?

I do see a future where several of the large blocks like PL and Goons actively going around with their supers and killing drilling refineries just to stop others from gaining utilizing those moons that they don't want to use themselves.

"Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason."

Leo Augustus
Rolex Classic
#163 - 2017-03-22 21:13:45 UTC
Moons won't be "freed up." It's just more tedium to extract the goodies.

Anyone planning on taking a fleet of hulks into PL space to mine under their cit's guns, nm their fleet?

Sign me up for that.. lol.

It just adds another layer to the tt2 process, so the real winners will be mission runners and anyone who hunts faction bpc's, since they're basically all superior to t2 anyhow.

In fact, there's no point to even having basic or intermediate moon mats if all that has to be done to refine them is run a bpo, aside from eating up finite industry.... errr... reaction slots and forcing alts into the reacting business.

Also kills any efficiencies one might gain by running a complex reaction at a moon that produces an ingredient for a mid-range input. It ALL has to be mined and built like t2 components.

If we're gonna have to mine it, at least cut out the two bullcrud steps of basic and intermediate and just have Crystalline Carbide and Ferrogel moons... ok, so maybe unrefined ferrogel...

But seriously, the point to adding two more steps to t2 production is what again? And adding mining to a production process that has never relied heavily on it?

Would be an easier pill to swallow if the goal was clear. Is the goal to see people who hate mining but are forced to die horribly?

You know what used to generate meaningful content and pvp? SOV warfare... that is until it was turned into mining.... errrr.. entosisisng Smile
Lobo de Madera
Cherokee Pride
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#164 - 2017-03-22 21:17:32 UTC
Another sad day for EVE ONLINE!
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#165 - 2017-03-22 21:17:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ptraci
Timers and alarm clock ops. Because CCP knows we love that stuff.

Alternatively it could be called "we can't think of an actual game mechanic, so here, have more timers".
Leo Augustus
Rolex Classic
#166 - 2017-03-22 21:22:53 UTC
Alright miners...

Alliance needs a ship-ton of evaporite deposits and atmospheric gases cuz you slackers haven't been meeting quotas.

How many times have I told you all not to cherry pick the high-value moon mats, or the ores worth 20 times more like scordite?

MANDATORY mining op now, paying 80% of Jita Buy...
Nivek Steyer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#167 - 2017-03-22 21:27:34 UTC
Centurax wrote:
Moon Drilling/Mining in Wormholes and even High Sec please, that would be really amazing for the game new content for all is what we are looking for.

Even if the materials are restricted in High Sec to what are currently R8, R16 and Gases I don't see that necessary breaking the market seeing as someone has to mine it unlike the current press start and wait..

WHs are prefect for this type of mining, also more content for everyone, and I don't just mean the miners Blink .




I must agree. Allow WH and HS to do this as well. There is absolutely no reason not to allow the content across the platform. I know CCP is so concerned about T2 prices. Whatever happened to the T2 were originally supped to cost 2x at T1. I remember that. All moon mining became in reality was the passive cash cow. Would be nice for once, for the content to go across the cluster instead of just to null sec, cause in the end that is where it will happen majority of the time. CCP please give the content across the cluster, we need more life in the game not limitation to if your in a special alliance or null sec only. Cheers and I hope that we see the content for all to enjoy and prey upon.
El Criscado
Mongorian Horde
#168 - 2017-03-22 21:38:30 UTC
I don't see a problem with this. The vast amount of AFK mining that happens with moons will be replaced with something that requires interaction, which will force major null alliances to either recruit carebears or they will have to shrink their borders. All in all, not a bad change.
zluq zabaa
Inhumanum Legionis
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#169 - 2017-03-22 21:40:15 UTC  |  Edited by: zluq zabaa
I find it seriously funny how in a Universe in which we can use Structures to build other such Structures and Spaceships of immense complexity we still have to take the pickaxe (be it the cool T2 pickaxe for all I care) in our hands to acquire basic materials. The new Structures will be able to somehow disconnect a large piece of an astronomic entity with serious gravitational powers and "beam it up", somehow make that huge piece explode into perfectly digestable smaller pieces, but for some reason beyond my understanding of logic it cannot go the next step and do what a Venture can do.

edit: What's the explanation of this technological backlash? Could it be that you guys try the impossible: be everybodies darling, be everyones foe, try to keep things the same, while making "big changes"?
Gyges Skyeye
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#170 - 2017-03-22 21:40:57 UTC
Hoshi wrote:
Querns wrote:
mkint wrote:
Hooray, even stricter dividing lines between the mega-alliance-null-stagnation and the 90%-of-the-playerbase! Exactly what this game needed! The barriers of entry to go from difficult to impossible! awesome!


So the large number of moons being freed up because of a need for active mining is somehow going to make "stagnation" worse?

I do see a future where several of the large blocks like PL and Goons actively going around with their supers and killing drilling refineries just to stop others from gaining utilizing those moons that they don't want to use themselves.


This would actually be nice in the way of exposing those supers/titans to be ambushed each time.

The most forgotten fact of Eve is that it's universe is mostly empty. Pick a well known populated system and go 5 jumps. There's a good chance you have the place to yourself or nearly so. If your playing at off peak times, almost certainly so. They can't possibly keep it all under their control.

Cluster wide hegemony is definitely a thing to be concerned of, but outside of Serenity where botting is basically legal, there just isn't enough sheer manpower to make it happen. This whole change is aimed at -increasing- the labor hours required to make things. Which does entrench the haves (who got their stuff before increased labor hours) but it also makes it much harder for the haves to become 'have all's that you fear.
Gyges Skyeye
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#171 - 2017-03-22 21:45:45 UTC
Thoughts #1:

Any time we can move player driven gameplay and organized events into scheduled timers is a good thing. Those timers act like Fish Aggregating Devices (FADs) (Gosh you need to backronym this into something in game) bringing players together for content.

Sub thoughts:
1. Any methods we can use, within reason, to expose these timers in a moderately aggregated and anonymized way, displayed in game, will be extremely valuable in guiding players towards content. Emphasis on within reason.
A new map stat – Fracking Activity Detected, simply giving a regional (or at worst constellation) count of ongoing fracking processes, would probably suffice.



Thoughts #2:
Given how moon mining is becoming an active process, us players will need to take new approaches to organizing and disrupting these activities and will need new tools to be creative in doing so.

Potential Organizational Ideas:
1. First on the subject of asteroid layout in these moon belts; let’s make this process more dynamic, avoiding straight forward min-max theory from developing, leaving room for expression of player skill, and allowing room for accidents to happen.

How? Billiards! We can use the new fighter interface and tactical camera to have a simple minigame where we line up and shoot the detonation charge at the rotating moon chunk. The simplified ballistics of which determines where our new asteroids will land. Gives us a new belt layout every time. Let’s practiced demolitions operators kind of keep belts closer to safety, lets inexperienced demolitions operators cause hilarity. Plus, it will look cool.

2. Before CCP took it’s own direction with Rorquals I had an idea that they should be transformed into a platform for horizontally scaling mining architecture rather than the new apex miner that they were reworked into (which meant that everyone just mines in rorquals now *frowny face*). Now that refineries will be on grid with the moon belts in what is intended to be a collaborative gameplay, we can consider inserting those features here. My idea was to introduce mining service drones that provided utility rather than raw mining stats. That utility could be applied in the form of increasing quality of life for mining ships and thus their *applied* mining rates, rather than just stat boosting the max rates which would cause the markets to crash(*hmm*).

Mining service drones: (fighter sized things)
A. Retrieval Drone: Scoops out ore from the target ship’s cargo and ore holds, (potentially compressing it,) and returns this ore to the mothership’s own stores. Requires no consent allowing use offensively and defensively. Streamlines the process of jet can mining and saves the lives of PvPers forced to join Mining CTAs.

(note these were thought of long before PANIC was a thing)
B.) Warp Core Boosting drone: A drone that gives the target an additional +n points of warp strength to target ship. An anti-point.
C.) Sacrificial auxiliary shield drone: Consumable one use drones that add grey health/overshields to target.
C.b)Sacrifical PANIC drone: Consumable one use drone that gives a short PANIC duration to the target. Might be the more modern way of doing it.

3. Ledgers:
These will be a net ‘good thing’. However, I’m not sure that ninja mining showing up on these ledgers is the best idea. Detectable siphons made them pointless. Punch card mining logs will do the same to ninja mining. There are a few options I can think of for addressing it. Each has their own pros and cons.

A.) Make ledgers operate from a reciprocally validated Access List. Wouldn’t track ninja mines. This has the potential to get unwieldy fast. Especially for NRDS organizations like Provibloc.

B.) Make ledgers operate from proposed Retrieval Drones. This lets collection and tracking of ore be handled in one step. Any ore some ninja warps off or docks with goes untracked, and unpaid. Probably the most convenient for all parties. However it operates under the assumption of the implementation of Retrieval Drones and presence of a Refinery (or drone user) in the mining op.

C.) Put ledgers into the Ihubs themselves. This would be a catch all that covers ice and ore anoms. However this can be untenable for renters who are stuck waiting on landlord bureaucracy to find out the results of their ledger.

*disruptive ideas to come in another post later.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#172 - 2017-03-22 21:49:25 UTC
Curious as to how it's going to work with all the 'crap' materials, the silicates, atmospheric gases etc, that underpin reactions - are people going to want to mine those? or will they be just contained in lots of the ore types from the moon crust as by-products?

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Lunarstorm95
Godless Horizon.
#173 - 2017-03-22 21:50:34 UTC
Querns wrote:
mkint wrote:
Hooray, even stricter dividing lines between the mega-alliance-null-stagnation and the 90%-of-the-playerbase! Exactly what this game needed! The barriers of entry to go from difficult to impossible! awesome!


So the large number of moons being freed up because of a need for active mining is somehow going to make "stagnation" worse?



I don't know what you don't get... in theory maybe but no one will be able to harvest them in enough capacity to matter.....

“You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.” ― Robert A. Heinlein "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." ― Confucius 

Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#174 - 2017-03-22 22:01:11 UTC
as others have mentioned including myself.. ccp just caused one hell of a headache for t2 production.

you guys need to nerf ccp rise's favorite faction crap because now you just killed t2 production and are making t2 ships and its mod even more expensive than ever before.

smh.. i cant believe these dudes came up with this process.
Orakkus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#175 - 2017-03-22 22:02:14 UTC
I didn't see it in the posts (might have missed it), are reprocessing facilities going to be removed then from Engineering citadels when Refineries go live?

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander

ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
Already Replaced.
#176 - 2017-03-22 22:09:49 UTC
I think large alliances have just gotten WAY to used to such huge amounts of no effort passive income from some of the comments in here XD
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#177 - 2017-03-22 22:15:55 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
I didn't see it in the posts (might have missed it), are reprocessing facilities going to be removed then from Engineering citadels when Refineries go live?



current rigs will be unfitted from the structures. so you decide if you want to put it back in or into the refinery.. the refinery will provide the bonus to refinement via the service mods..


so by default.. you just spent 1 rig slot on the refinery... good luck on figuring out the 2 slots.. and brace for the t2 rig version.. guess that also means somebody better do some calibration math quick.. cause its not looking pretty at all.

zluq zabaa
Inhumanum Legionis
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#178 - 2017-03-22 22:26:22 UTC
First here is my counter-proposal:
Basic idea: make Moon-Mining more Active by not making it a stupid AFK-Mining-Fleet.

Introduce the new Structures, make Moon-Mining an Industry Job with a Moon-Mining Skill (just as you plan to do it for Moon Reactions, which is great) and in order to change the current problem of rich-guys sitting on the moons, just change the current mechanics of the same moon always having the same Goo.

More concrete: randomly spawn ressources on moons (if you need lore: some tectonic movement revealed... your geologist found...) and let them be depleted after some time (either random or fixed depending on the size of the moon-mineral deposit - because ressources deplete on Planets too and they are Planets and not tiny little moons).
It would force people to do moon-scans if they want to stay in business, to move their installations rather than just sitting on them and it allows for some move diversity in the T2-market.

Plus it would offer some true opportunity to the Highsec Dweller who wishes to acquire some Moon-Goo by doing the simple calculation of risk vs. reward (e.g. putting up some 800M Structure to mine r64 Goo on some moon noone else found yet - hoping that noone will notice their structure within the next week so it becomes profitable). In regard to this I'd also suggest to not show the Mining Platforms on the Star Map or as a Beacon (just like POS now), but to force people actively looking for them.



Now the critic of the current outlines:

Read all the posts, look at who is writing it and you will basically see the types:
* already rich SOV Null Entity guy loves the idea, trying hard to convince others it'll be great and hide that only he will profit
* Lowsec Dudes shocked how CCP again shifts to a little less fun, a little more grind
* Wormholies trying to get additional source of income (tbf, WH is risky enough for most so it should pay out)
* Highseccers dreaming of the day they can make Null profits with less risk (pro tip: Sov Nullsec is already less risky than Highsec)

The one good thing that could come out of it is the end of largely passive income for the already rich... Muahahahahaha!!!111
It just forces them to behave more like other Null Lords and find mining contractors willing to pay to be allowed mining their fields for some margin of profit.

Any small-time guy or gal who already got moisty, do you really think that with the current outlines anything apart from Ninja-Mining will suddenly become profitable or even doable? Do you really think that any Alliance will allow anyone to just use moons in "their" area, wether they use them or not? If people can't make a profit for themselves, it doesn't mean that they won't be motivated destroying your efforts to make some. If it was any different you'd all be already out there Moon Mining with the current mechanics (some are, which is good, but it will be harder for them in the future).
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#179 - 2017-03-22 22:40:00 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
I didn't see it in the posts (might have missed it), are reprocessing facilities going to be removed then from Engineering citadels when Refineries go live?

Yes. Rigs will be refunded. The service module can already be removed.

You can then choose to put the rigs back on, at likely a reduced reprocessing yield (no rig bonus from structure).
Fish Hunter
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
Renaissance Federation
#180 - 2017-03-22 22:43:05 UTC
zluq zabaa wrote:
[b] Do you really think that any Alliance will allow anyone to just use moons in "their" area, wether they use them or not? If people can't make a profit for themselves, it doesn't mean that they won't be motivated destroying your efforts to make some. If it was any different you'd all be already out there Moon Mining with the current mechanics (some are, which is good, but it will be harder for them in the future).


Hell no nobody will let someone else mine in "their area" . These changes do make Alliance level income much harder for groups that currently get some income from moon mining. Probably need some ESS type method or Alliance taxes for Alliances to suck isk from ratter bounties. The big null alliances already have renting programs because of the isk it brings in, hell now those guys might charge more for the moon mining option.