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[March] Balance Tweaks: Fighters, Supercarriers & Burst Projectors

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Anna Aele
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#381 - 2017-03-15 16:39:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Anna Aele
I'm a supercap pilot and here's a rundown of this change from a nyx bro point of view(all T2 all5 stats):
PVP
1)Fighters were already easy to counter since they are EXTREMELY easily jammable. Theoretically one falcon with 5 profile jammers can 100%+ jam all 5 of your squads. Permanently. One falcon. Seriously? Heavy drones have more sensor points(3x times more even though fighters seem to get buffed by NSA which then gets closer to 2x difference).
2)It's kinda good(ish) to bring fighters' signatures in line with heavy drones. But heavy drones (t2 comparison) have almost 2x base speed even though they have a little less EHP considering resists. Also drones' signature doesn't get rekt by their mwd that much honestly.
Let's not even compare them to the gecko. It is nearly as fat as a whole light SQUAD.
2.1)Fighters are kinda stupid and are standing still unless you command them not to. Drones can auto-aggro.
3)You are now bombing your own light fighters for up to 65% of their shield with T2 DDAs. No comments.
4)Now the cost. Did I really just buy a 20bil ship with 10bil fits and ~3bil fighters to not even be able to hit a target if enemy has 1 falcon\1 smart BS\bomber\etc.? Don't think so. Players had the option to permajam fighters already. Why should some plebs be able to nullify&kill a super (while not losing a single ship of their own) without specialised ships anyway?
5)Support fighters except for sirens are unusably awful. Have you actually seen any of them? I didn't. Because they are really really bad. Now you nerf damage ones that were decent along with already dead content wise support ones.
PVE
1)Due to citadel changes now carriers&supers require a decent amount of APM to kill NPCs(well, actually anything, really) efficiently. None of my previous PVE boats required that much APM as a nyx.
2)This gets worse considering the fact that a wave can now legitimately alpha off your light fighter even if it's moving.
2.1)This gets worse considering that you have to lock a structure to keep fighters moving to reduce the chance of them being alphad.
3)Gilas and Ishtars have the option to do anomalies almost completely afk due to auto-aggroing drones and can do that in large amounts (multibox) using assist. Carriers&supers can't. You can't really PVE efficiently and safely in more than one super unless you're a masochist\genius\starcraft pro.
4)Why should people get punished for purchasing an EXPENSIVE ship that requires decent APM and skill investment to get decent ticks? Gila&Ishtar&VNI are dirt cheap and can actually do anomalies afk as mentioned above and even if you lose one - in ~5 afk hours you earn enough money for another. Does that work for a super? No.
TLDR: nerf is bad&unjustified. I can't see a legitimate logical reason for this change except for CCP wants more account subs for afk dronboats and subcap accounts in general. Well, you just lost a few. I unsubbed. Eve is a game where you should overcome difficulties to become successful but not the ones that developers put in your way without any logical reason. Losing the ability to ride my super efficiently considering how much work&time I've put in it isn't legit anymore.
PS but hey at least while I have my subs still up I am able to use projectors more effectively. YAY!
Limur Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#382 - 2017-03-15 16:58:11 UTC
You true, carriers like Dominx but with large shield at the moment. Buy the VNI or Rattlesnake and forget about carriers.

Anna Aele wrote:
I'm a supercap pilot and here's a rundown of this change from a nyx bro point of view(all T2):
PVP
1)Fighters were already easy to counter since they are EXTREMELY easily jammable. Theoretically one falcon with 5 profile jammers can 100%+ jam all 5 of your squads. Permanently. One falcon. Seriously? Heavy drones have more sensor points(3x times more even though fighters seem to get buffed by NSA which then gets closer to 2x difference).
2)It's kinda good(ish) to bring fighters' signatures in line with heavy drones. But heavy drones (t2 comparison) have almost 2x base speed even though they have a little less EHP considering resists. Also drones' signature doesn't get rekt by their mwd that much honestly.
Let's not even compare them to the gecko. It is nearly as fat as a whole light SQUAD.
2.1)Fighters are kinda stupid and are standing still unless you command them not to. Drones can auto-aggro.
3)You are now bombing your own light fighters for up to 65% of their shield with T2 DDAs. No comments.
4)Now the cost. Did I really just buy a 20bil ship with 10bil fits and ~3bil fighters to not even be able to hit a target if enemy has 1 falcon\1 smart BS\bomber\etc.? Don't think so. Players had the option to permajam fighters already. Why should some plebs be able to nullify&kill a super (while not losing a single ship of their own) without specialised ships anyway?
5)Support fighters except for sirens are unusably awful. Have you actually seen any of them? I didn't. Because they are really really bad. Now you nerf damage ones that were decent.
PVE
1)Due to citadel changes now carriers&supers require a decent amount of APM to kill NPCs(well, actually anything, really) efficiently. None of my previous PVE boats required that much APM as a nyx.
2)This gets worse considering the fact that a wave can now legitimately alpha off your light fighter even if it's moving.
2.1)This gets worse considering that you have to lock a structure to keep fighters moving to reduce the chance of them being alphad.
3)Gilas and Ishtars have the option to do anomalies almost completely afk due to auto-aggroing drones and can do that in large amounts (multibox) using assist. Carriers&supers can't. You can't really PVE efficiently and safely in more than one super unless you're a masochist\genius\starcraft pro.
4)Why should people get punished for purchasing an EXPENSIVE ship that requires decent APM and skill investment to get decent ticks? Gila&Ishtar&VNI are dirt cheap and can actually do anomalies afk as mentioned above and even if you lose one - in ~5 afk hours you earn enough money for another. Does that work for a super? No.
TLDR: nerf is bad&unjustified. I can't see a legitimate logic reason for this change seriously except for CCP wants more account subs. Well, you just lost a few. I unsubbed. Eve is a game where you should overcome difficulties to become successful but not they ones that developers put in your way without any logical reason. Losing the ability to ride my super efficiently considering how much work&time I've put in it isn't legit anymore.
PS but hey at least while I have my subs still up I am able to use projectors more effectively. YAY!
clipper shore
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#383 - 2017-03-15 17:48:31 UTC
look guys from looking at whats happening in null sec at the moment where huge numbers are not even logging into the game i would say at the next investors meeting fozzie and larkin will have alot of explaing to do why huge numbers of players have stopped playing the game

me for 1 hhas been carrier ratting for years with the carrier changes it ment i could only use 1 to rat at a time big drop in my income

now i may loose money ratting in my carrier because of these changes sorry ccp but if you want to kill null sec you have done it

never heard so much rage about this patch i think there will be a long term efect to the player base the eve will never recover from
clipper shore
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#384 - 2017-03-15 17:55:30 UTC
the rage is because people spent real money in the game to train char's and now ccp make changes that makes that money spent pointless

ccp have efectivly stolen from those players and at the moment in my country there is a case to be had to sue ccp which is being investaged at the moment
Billy Antollarenti
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#385 - 2017-03-15 17:55:43 UTC
First time in 4 years playing that I'm actually angry at CCP.

The impact on carrier ratting was obvious, predictable and predicted but all these predictions have been ignored by CCP.
Nerf it if you must, but not by screwing over fighters.

I just ran 3 havens, lost 5 fighters, and I never take my eyes of the screen, never allow fighters to sit still. I lost 2 on the way TO the site, before they fired a shot. This means a trip in a DST to the market hub to buy more, which effectively halves my ratting income today.

Think I'll try an alpha clone for a bit
Trevize Demerzel
#386 - 2017-03-15 18:01:43 UTC
It's even more "fun" when a Dread spawns. Can loose an entire wing before recalling. Killing a dread means loosing a bunch of fighters. I haven't yet seen a single good drop from a dread.. And I've killed lots of dreads... lots... With this big hit to risk vs reward could we at least put some decent loot on dreads?

-
xOmGx
Heroic Farming inc.
#387 - 2017-03-15 18:10:56 UTC
Trevize Demerzel wrote:
It's even more "fun" when a Dread spawns. Can loose an entire wing before recalling. Killing a dread means loosing a bunch of fighters. I haven't yet seen a single good drop from a dread.. And I've killed lots of dreads... lots... With this big hit to risk vs reward could we at least put some decent loot on dreads?



never seen and or heard about any good drops from dread beside these parts

LOL now Carriers cant kill dreads GZ ccp "good job"
Astro Agnon
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#388 - 2017-03-15 19:20:34 UTC
Yesterday, I lost 10 fighters while at a Haven with my Thanny.

I do not fight semi-afk in any fashion. I am always at the controls.

Like others have posted, I lost 3 with seconds, one shot. When they started taking damage I would get them off the field, but when there at 10% damage, and litterly the next second at 90%, that fighter is toast.

I for one, do not mind things becoming balanced, but heck, let's not tip the scales to the other side!!!!!!

I got around 30 million for the site, replacing 10 fighters, 40 mill. Hmm................CryCryCryCry
d3vi0us sander
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#389 - 2017-03-15 19:53:32 UTC
Yup this nerf is just over the roof awful. in forsaken hub lost 3 fighters just in 2 waves. that is ridiculous. i can make more isk in a VNI with way shorter training and way less attention than i do in a carrier that i trained for a while to fly and fit. If this wont get fixed i concider finding new game to play. I havent had my carrier for even few months and boom all that waiting turned waste of time.What?
Anna Aele wrote:
I'm a supercap pilot and here's a rundown of this change from a nyx bro point of view(all T2 all5 stats):
PVP
1)Fighters were already easy to counter since they are EXTREMELY easily jammable. Theoretically one falcon with 5 profile jammers can 100%+ jam all 5 of your squads. Permanently. One falcon. Seriously? Heavy drones have more sensor points(3x times more even though fighters seem to get buffed by NSA which then gets closer to 2x difference).
2)It's kinda good(ish) to bring fighters' signatures in line with heavy drones. But heavy drones (t2 comparison) have almost 2x base speed even though they have a little less EHP considering resists. Also drones' signature doesn't get rekt by their mwd that much honestly.
Let's not even compare them to the gecko. It is nearly as fat as a whole light SQUAD.
2.1)Fighters are kinda stupid and are standing still unless you command them not to. Drones can auto-aggro.
3)You are now bombing your own light fighters for up to 65% of their shield with T2 DDAs. No comments.
4)Now the cost. Did I really just buy a 20bil ship with 10bil fits and ~3bil fighters to not even be able to hit a target if enemy has 1 falcon\1 smart BS\bomber\etc.? Don't think so. Players had the option to permajam fighters already. Why should some plebs be able to nullify&kill a super (while not losing a single ship of their own) without specialised ships anyway?
5)Support fighters except for sirens are unusably awful. Have you actually seen any of them? I didn't. Because they are really really bad. Now you nerf damage ones that were decent along with already dead content wise support ones.
PVE
1)Due to citadel changes now carriers&supers require a decent amount of APM to kill NPCs(well, actually anything, really) efficiently. None of my previous PVE boats required that much APM as a nyx.
2)This gets worse considering the fact that a wave can now legitimately alpha off your light fighter even if it's moving.
2.1)This gets worse considering that you have to lock a structure to keep fighters moving to reduce the chance of them being alphad.
3)Gilas and Ishtars have the option to do anomalies almost completely afk due to auto-aggroing drones and can do that in large amounts (multibox) using assist. Carriers&supers can't. You can't really PVE efficiently and safely in more than one super unless you're a masochist\genius\starcraft pro.
4)Why should people get punished for purchasing an EXPENSIVE ship that requires decent APM and skill investment to get decent ticks? Gila&Ishtar&VNI are dirt cheap and can actually do anomalies afk as mentioned above and even if you lose one - in ~5 afk hours you earn enough money for another. Does that work for a super? No.
TLDR: nerf is bad&unjustified. I can't see a legitimate logical reason for this change except for CCP wants more account subs for afk dronboats and subcap accounts in general. Well, you just lost a few. I unsubbed. Eve is a game where you should overcome difficulties to become successful but not the ones that developers put in your way without any logical reason. Losing the ability to ride my super efficiently considering how much work&time I've put in it isn't legit anymore.
PS but hey at least while I have my subs still up I am able to use projectors more effectively. YAY!
Juvir
Omega Nebula BattleWorks
#390 - 2017-03-15 20:10:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Juvir
xOmGx wrote:
Trevize Demerzel wrote:
It's even more "fun" when a Dread spawns. Can loose an entire wing before recalling. Killing a dread means loosing a bunch of fighters. I haven't yet seen a single good drop from a dread.. And I've killed lots of dreads... lots... With this big hit to risk vs reward could we at least put some decent loot on dreads?



never seen and or heard about any good drops from dread beside these parts

LOL now Carriers cant kill dreads GZ ccp "good job"


Only ever gotten one "good" drop off of a dread, and it was a BPC for a faction capital module (think it was a shield extender). Required the parts that drop off of NPC capitals to build it + the T1 variant. Carriers used to be called in to kill these NPC dreads, because with another dread it becomes a standstill. They tank each other and get nowhere. The NPC dreads already 1-2 shot VNIs and Isktars off the field, even if they're still speed/sig tanking.

Now dreads are killing fighters due to the changes? Well, I guess we weren't ever supposed to kill these, eh CCP? Just let them roam from site to site, belt to belt, killing anyone who is in system and in space doing anything meaningful. Because i'm sure not calling in a titan to deal with it, since that's the only option now.

I honestly think unless CCP has plans to change these back, or fix the other bugs with carriers/supers/fighters very soon, they should allow pilots to request skill refunds for their fighter skills. Carrier skill is still useful for FAX piloting, but the fighters are just garbage now. Could use those skills toward something useful, like a venture, since that's what they want us flying now.
ValhallaCCB
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#391 - 2017-03-15 20:44:41 UTC
Seeing as this is the place to leave feedback I will put in my two cents. I have been using carrier ratting as my source of income to allow me to learn and grow as a PvP'er. However, after playing around with this new patch I have lost more fighters than I have for the past few months of ratting. It isn't at a balanced level in my opinion. Loosing a fighter here and there is within the normal range and is part of the ratting process. But going into each site and loosing 5-9 of them because figs, cruisers, and battle cruisers instantly swap then volley them isn't fun. At this point, I don't really see it as being a viable income source for me anymore due to the losses. However, as stated above this is just my experience with the new aggro. Maybe it could be lowered a little or change to make it not so instantaneous or more warning of an aggro swap.


Thanks for the consideration CCP.
TekMek
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#392 - 2017-03-15 21:41:53 UTC
ShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedShockedRollRollShockedShocked
Hy CCP :-)

first of all I want to thank you for the wonderful changes to fighter squadrons and the workaround for them.

And for the brilliant idea of giving the roqual a mining flagship role. I hated having it under a pos , but on the other
hand I loved it to be of use in eve even while beeing at work.

I have some thoughts about capitals though. I think something in general is just going into a wrong direction.
Why are capitals slowly moving to over expensive battleships with paper tank and damage nerfs ?

just consider. a single tengu does 1000 dps
a single rattlesnake does 1500 dps

a fully equipped carrier does at maxed out skills around 3000 dps.

and it merely is bit of nothing. What could a carrier really be ? Base for fighters maybe letting him have a jump clone bay for example so that a carrier pilot could pilot a group of 5 to 10 corp mates into a new system just by clone jumping them there
and letting them take there ships out of hangar (that would be a role that would fit for pvp)

and Dreadnoughts ? Where are these highly tanked stuff without the ability to stand their man ?

And why these over complicated siege, triage, bastion, industrial core calculations ?? Would it not make much more sense
in giving them all a unique cycle time from 2,5 minutes to 0,5 minutes depending on skill level ? Why not thinking about the
details and why different fuel for those all or fuel at all ?? could they not work as other modules simple and usable ?

Why must there be 10-15 minutes cycle time on a rorquals industrial core when it does not work in a pos ?? Thats killing that modules use for all could say its like grieving even.

Should there not be a real capital class ? Where a fleet shudders when getting capitals enter a battle instead of seeing them as valuable kill mail food ? Where has been the awe when this big clumpy things enter a battlefield ?

Yes of course. A fleet of 5 capitals could be a deadly threat if the where such nonbalanced as described
and Yes of course there could be capital wars burning tons of ISK , of course .

But do we all really want that our tech III cruiser fleets with 1000 dps per tengu rule the places
or that the Rattlesnakes are the highest goal for the ambigous ratter ?

Me I must say I hate it. I love the Raven and loved it all the time . but with his 1000 dps I early found out that a 1500 dps rattlesnake is much more effective to a anomaly then any other ship I had flown. But sorry I am getting off topic.

Back to the changes.. Good job with the scanners when offdocking the windows from the map there are only good points left.
Looks good , makes scanning more understandable, gives the screen a good look. Nice.

Expanding the keyboard commands to fighters and to mining drones ... Good to give this a thought and very good that you implemented it Whoever remembered about doing this could be a nice thing and ease things a bit yeah ! Great !

Looking at the market, dont forget to get the industrial core alive please. It is unusable at the moment and the cost of burning strontium clathtrate down (which have made a price up from 400 to 9000+ isks should get a thought at too please).

Why not cutting down the cycle time and the use of all these modules to the bastion module ? Would make it much easier to use for all... Triage, Siege, Industrial core , bastion, why not releasing the "must burn something" mode and why not setting them all to a base of 2,5 minutes on skill level 1 and down to 0,5 minutes at skill level 5 ? Remember 30 seconds are still deadly if in a rorqual in an ice belt for example or when a big fleet comes into a system where a fleet of dreadnoughts are fighting some other capital fleets ??

What will happen if you cannot crack a capital with a fleet of smaller ships ??
Easy ... your foe will have to bring capitals to fight capitals. So whats the problem then ?

And what if you need big fleets to get small fleets of capitals down ?? Maybe make a balance in COST... Make a balance in ISK... It must not be perfect though, but a bit of thought about value and worth would be nice.

If you need 5 battleships worth 3 billion to get a carrier or dread thats worth 3 billions down .. that would be a balance....
or 10 cruisers or 90 frigates :-) ... There will be always ways to get a big ship down. Remember its slow and cannot turn around or warp out that fast.

I appreciate your work. These are just thoughts. No matter if someone really hears them and gets them up.
I know .. many places where work wants to be done.

friendly greetings and fly smart o7
Tekmek
Black Salt
Doomheim
#393 - 2017-03-15 23:20:37 UTC
Firstly, I'd like to address your comments regarding "We have done lots of tests", I find this somewhat hard to believe unless you're using a PC which is directly interfaced into your test servers and isn't having to use any kind of internet.

Anyone with even a slightly slow connection will have latency issues when inputting commands for fighters making it near impossible to keep fighters moving 100% of the time, so I'd questions the validity of your testing methodology, however, I couldn't find any information on how you perform your test, so I can only assume this is an oversight or a deliberate lie, not a very good way to treat customers and is covered under the Consumer Protection Act within the UK if the latter is found to be true.

Moving away from this material, I would like to address the changes to fighters in general.

Fighters take an insurmountable amount of damage when volleyed by the PVE content in anomalies, a single volley from a carrier rat spawn, for example, is able to kill 3 fighters in a squadron, assuming it takes them a couple of seconds to get there, that is potentially 6 fighters lost. This reduces the DPS on a Carrier to the point of not being able to kill the Carrier Rat and makes the reward less than the losses you've just sustained, whilst annoying is not the end of the world.

What I feel is absolutely unacceptable is the loss of fighters against a battleship, frigate and cruiser "rats" while a Heavy Drone has far more hit points, far more regen, and actual resist to types of damage making heavy drones more effective in tanking than fighters are.

The only way I can see this being balanced is if you make the production of fighters instead of making a single fighter, make a full squadron worth per cycle, while perhaps doubling the required materials for the industry aspect of a single fighter for the entire squad.

This, in turn, alleviates build queues for players who spend 90% of their time making fighters, encourages them to buy the minerals needed which pushes up the mineral prices.

This, however, does not fix the issues with PVP but that's a different issue and I would leave that to someone with more experience in the field than myself to discuss/express.

Before I unsub and leave the game, I'm waiting to see if you rectify or readdress the balancing issues in some way however if this isn't rectified, I will not be renewing my sub for the game and will actively dissuade friends from playing the game if asked.

I'm sure you can appreciate the fiscal effect such actions can have against your company and your brand as CCP, aka "The Pirates of the Gaming Industry here to take your money, move goalposts and make changes based solely on greed without realising their players are not morons".
Gadzooki
Doomheim
#394 - 2017-03-16 02:34:43 UTC
Black Salt wrote:
Firstly, I'd like to address your comments regarding "We have done lots of tests", I find this somewhat hard to believe unless you're using a PC which is directly interfaced into your test servers and isn't having to use any kind of internet.

Anyone with even a slightly slow connection will have latency issues when inputting commands for fighters making it near impossible to keep fighters moving 100% of the time, so I'd questions the validity of your testing methodology, however, I couldn't find any information on how you perform your test, so I can only assume this is an oversight or a deliberate lie, not a very good way to treat customers and is covered under the Consumer Protection Act within the UK if the latter is found to be true.

Moving away from this material, I would like to address the changes to fighters in general.

Fighters take an insurmountable amount of damage when volleyed by the PVE content in anomalies, a single volley from a carrier rat spawn, for example, is able to kill 3 fighters in a squadron, assuming it takes them a couple of seconds to get there, that is potentially 6 fighters lost. This reduces the DPS on a Carrier to the point of not being able to kill the Carrier Rat and makes the reward less than the losses you've just sustained, whilst annoying is not the end of the world.

What I feel is absolutely unacceptable is the loss of fighters against a battleship, frigate and cruiser "rats" while a Heavy Drone has far more hit points, far more regen, and actual resist to types of damage making heavy drones more effective in tanking than fighters are.

The only way I can see this being balanced is if you make the production of fighters instead of making a single fighter, make a full squadron worth per cycle, while perhaps doubling the required materials for the industry aspect of a single fighter for the entire squad.

This, in turn, alleviates build queues for players who spend 90% of their time making fighters, encourages them to buy the minerals needed which pushes up the mineral prices.

This, however, does not fix the issues with PVP but that's a different issue and I would leave that to someone with more experience in the field than myself to discuss/express.

Before I unsub and leave the game, I'm waiting to see if you rectify or readdress the balancing issues in some way however if this isn't rectified, I will not be renewing my sub for the game and will actively dissuade friends from playing the game if asked.

I'm sure you can appreciate the fiscal effect such actions can have against your company and your brand as CCP, aka "The Pirates of the Gaming Industry here to take your money, move goalposts and make changes based solely on greed without realising their players are not morons".




Ahh Black salt, the saltiest salt of all.

threaten legal action - check
threaten to cancel account - check
Offer up sound changes that will go unnoticed because of the tone of your first paragraph - check

Better check the salt levels in the ocean before we proceed
Xantia Naari
Serious About Space Things..
#395 - 2017-03-16 03:17:07 UTC
clipper shore wrote:
look guys from looking at whats happening in null sec at the moment where huge numbers are not even logging into the game i would say at the next investors meeting fozzie and larkin will have alot of explaing to do why huge numbers of players have stopped playing the game

me for 1 hhas been carrier ratting for years with the carrier changes it ment i could only use 1 to rat at a time big drop in my income

now i may loose money ratting in my carrier because of these changes sorry ccp but if you want to kill null sec you have done it

never heard so much rage about this patch i think there will be a long term efect to the player base the eve will never recover from


I have changed my mind. I was under the impression that carrier ratting was going to be totally impossible, but after testing some fits on sisi I found that it IS possible not to lose a single fighter as long as you pay attention and work those hot keys. Carrier ratting was never ment to be an isk printing business you could do with more then one carrier at a time, while watching a mové..
The quote above is a good example. All ways of making isk should involve actually playing the game. You need to work a little to earn your isk. So, you have a dream of flying a carrier and making some good profit doing so? That still exists! It's just that you can't do any PvP at the same time on a separate account. I'm only talking about the PvE part here but the changes nerfes the carrier ratting obuse rather then the entire prospect of carrier ratting at all. So for those who still feel bitter, I guess you'll have to find another way to pay for your 20 accounts, 20 titans or what ever you had in mind.

There are two kinds of children that play in sandboxes. Those who build castles and those who kick them down. It's a symbiosis.
Beast of Revelations
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#396 - 2017-03-16 04:23:01 UTC
TekMek wrote:

I have some thoughts about capitals though. I think something in general is just going into a wrong direction.
Why are capitals slowly moving to over expensive battleships with paper tank and damage nerfs ?

...

But do we all really want that our tech III cruiser fleets with 1000 dps per tengu rule the places


In a word - "yes." It has been heading down this path for a while. In fact it started with battleships. There are vermin out there who love to spout nonsense like "bigger isn't better!" and "there are no tiers in EVE!" and "blah blah!" and whatever else. It's people who think relatively small cheap ships should be the end-game, and there should not be much use for anything bigger than a cruiser. Basically "Eve Online" should be "Cruisers Online."

Again, just look at the battleship and what has happened to it. Now it's just a Level 4 mission running ship. In fact I see the "Cruisers Online" vermin tout that in forum posts as a "use" and "intention" of the battleship - to be a Level 4 mission runner. "Battleships have uses!" they say.

Maybe they'll start saying carriers have their uses too. Look at all the crap you can haul around in them. Plus clone bays I guess. So that's why you should buy one over a cruiser, LOL.

Well, that's what happens when the company decides to cater to the game-playing whims of what I consider to be... "misguided" people at best, and terms I will not utter at worst.
Zenra Va'Kur
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#397 - 2017-03-16 07:46:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zenra Va'Kur
Xantia Naari wrote:
clipper shore wrote:
look guys from looking at whats happening in null sec at the moment where huge numbers are not even logging into the game i would say at the next investors meeting fozzie and larkin will have alot of explaing to do why huge numbers of players have stopped playing the game

me for 1 hhas been carrier ratting for years with the carrier changes it ment i could only use 1 to rat at a time big drop in my income

now i may loose money ratting in my carrier because of these changes sorry ccp but if you want to kill null sec you have done it

never heard so much rage about this patch i think there will be a long term efect to the player base the eve will never recover from


I have changed my mind. I was under the impression that carrier ratting was going to be totally impossible, but after testing some fits on sisi I found that it IS possible not to lose a single fighter as long as you pay attention and work those hot keys. Carrier ratting was never ment to be an isk printing business you could do with more then one carrier at a time, while watching a mové..
The quote above is a good example. All ways of making isk should involve actually playing the game. You need to work a little to earn your isk. So, you have a dream of flying a carrier and making some good profit doing so? That still exists! It's just that you can't do any PvP at the same time on a separate account. I'm only talking about the PvE part here but the changes nerfes the carrier ratting obuse rather then the entire prospect of carrier ratting at all. So for those who still feel bitter, I guess you'll have to find another way to pay for your 20 accounts, 20 titans or what ever you had in mind.



Plz can you show me where you find these people not at their computers while ratting in a carrier? I've been playing eve for 2 years and I've never once seen someone ratting in one while being AFK. The issue with the argument that you should be playing the game while ratting or else it's printing isk, is complete malarkey in terms of the build of carriers before this patch and during this current patch. No one in the 100's of people I've met in this game that use carriers do that at least from what I've seen in my time in eve. Even if their multi-boxing, I see no issue with people carrier ratting and doing pvp, or pi or any other various things while doing ratting in their carrier or carriers. Their investment they should be able to do with it as they please.

If the isk earned from multi-boxing carriers is the issue, then why aren't other drone boats being forced to be just as micro managing? It's now cheaper, less risky, and far far less work to multi-box ishtars or even a VNI for god sake. Hell just 3 VNI's will make as much as my carrier (I'm low skill).

The sad part about this is, my carrier is now a hauler, as the sites are now like rolling the dice. I lose 6 to one haven, then 1 to another, then 2 to another. I also follow the general findings everyone has done videos on to stop fighter deaths and they still get volleyed off the field and mainly by only battleships, not the cruisers or frigs that I take out early. My Ishtar loses zero. And I can actually see the health of the drones being hit, so I have a chance at calling them back when they get smacked to hard.

I'd be nice to actually have someone give me a good reason why hitting hotkeys every 2 seconds for an hour or 2 is fun. It's nothing but tedious, and detrimental to the health of my arms and hands. I have enough issues with my arms due to computer use I do not need my hobby to also add on another few hours of repetitive key pressing so that I can make some pointless space ship money. The risk of carrier ratting is so not worth it when you add the amount of damage it will do, and the risk it brings in game financially.
Trevize Demerzel
#398 - 2017-03-16 11:31:21 UTC
xOmGx wrote:
Trevize Demerzel wrote:
It's even more "fun" when a Dread spawns. Can loose an entire wing before recalling. Killing a dread means loosing a bunch of fighters. I haven't yet seen a single good drop from a dread.. And I've killed lots of dreads... lots... With this big hit to risk vs reward could we at least put some decent loot on dreads?



never seen and or heard about any good drops from dread beside these parts

LOL now Carriers cant kill dreads GZ ccp "good job"



Didn't say you couldn't kill it. I just said the fighter loss is greater then then value of the dread/salvage. So the risk/reward/ROI is total crap.

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Hiemlynn
Bubba Gump Shrimping Corp
#399 - 2017-03-16 12:30:01 UTC
Just thought I would throw my two pence in...

I have just ran multiple havens in my carrier this morning (first time after the patch) and I lost absolutely no fighters. The closest I came was when I miss-clicked on an orbit command and they sat still for 5 seconds and one fighter took damage up to 56%.
Xantia Naari
Serious About Space Things..
#400 - 2017-03-16 12:36:19 UTC
Zenra Va'Kur wrote:




If the isk earned from multi-boxing carriers is the issue, then why aren't other drone boats being forced to be just as micro managing? It's now cheaper, less risky, and far far less work to multi-box ishtars or even a VNI for god sake. Hell just 3 VNI's will make as much as my carrier (I'm low skill).

The sad part about this is, my carrier is now a hauler, as the sites are now like rolling the dice. I lose 6 to one haven, then 1 to another, then 2 to another. I also follow the general findings everyone has done videos on to stop fighter deaths and they still get volleyed off the field and mainly by only battleships, not the cruisers or frigs that I take out early. My Ishtar loses zero. And I can actually see the health of the drones being hit, so I have a chance at calling them back when they get smacked to hard.

I'd be nice to actually have someone give me a good reason why hitting hotkeys every 2 seconds for an hour or 2 is fun. It's nothing but tedious, and detrimental to the health of my arms and hands. I have enough issues with my arms due to computer use I do not need my hobby to also add on another few hours of repetitive key pressing so that I can make some pointless space ship money. The risk of carrier ratting is so not worth it when you add the amount of damage it will do, and the risk it brings in game financially.



This must be one of the most pathetic arguments in the history of gaming entertainment. God forbid you try other games like Starcraft or CS that actually requires pushing keys many times a second. If you think pushing a key every 2 seconds is detrimental to your health, I strongly suggest you quit gaming all together and get your fat ass up and exercise it. Either that or retire to a old folks home and stick to playing bingo.

All players that quit EVE because their favorite exploit has been nerfed is good riddance.

There are two kinds of children that play in sandboxes. Those who build castles and those who kick them down. It's a symbiosis.