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I was away from the game for 2 years, and happy to stay gone, then I see this awesome mining patch coming out... 6 months later I'm coming back around to "**** you CCP". Maybe you should start small and buff next time, instead of beating the **** out of something with a Nerf bat. BTW, nerfing excavators right when you're also buffing T2 drones.... not amused.

The mineral prices have been high for a while now, and the Rorqual mining is finally putting them back to their lower prices, the same prices that saw huge fleet fights, affordable battleships, etc etc. You made all kinds of changes for "new players", but the biggest complaint I've heard from them is how much grinding they have to do to afford ships. Screwing with the Rorqual is DIRECTLY interfering with the market, no 2 ways about it, and you should keep your hands off for at least another 3 months before you make this change to drone yields. 2 nerfs in 6 months to something people paid billions to use is too damn much.

Regarding the PANIC changes... where do I start? Oh I know, FIRE the IDIOT who came up with it. If you have a problem with Rorqs being used for tackle, remove their ability to fit tackle ffs, leave the damn module alone. I dare say that it would be easier to insert the code into the preexisting system that prevents certain ships from fitting certain mods, rather than inserting all new code that forces an asteroid lock for use. Start with removing the ability to use heavy webs, wait a bit, then maybe go further. See what I'm doing here, baby steps, spelling it right out for you, almost like I'm talking to children.

As a final note, you may want to have a long talk with your lawyer, if you haven't done so already, about what happened to Blizzard a while back. You know, that big lawsuit they got hit with (and LOST) where they got sued for tons of money in a class action suit. Wasn't that over nerfing something people paid big RL money for? You know, kind of like people paying money for PLEX to buy those drones... the ones you're nerfing now? Well damn, hate to be in your shoes if you pull this **** on the Asian server.

Ahh the joys of being a miner.

Another nerf to the mining community of EVE, would be fun to watch if every miner in the game decided not to mine for a few days see how the ore and mineral prices go.

Either that or actually give the Rorq what it is supposed to have for defense, I mean a bubble to protect it for a few mins, now that's going away as well unless u are actually targeting something, it is a CAPITAL ship with all the capabilities of a Jump Freighter and drone bay of more then most ships in the game.

Try and git it proper defenses i.e. the ability to actually defend itself, guns, rockets etc and the ability to field fighters instead of 5 poxy drones either that or make caps and supers able to mine, that would be fun.

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Чую наебос от ЦопЦопПэ

Если так продолжиться, то пора завязывать фоззи с исландской травой

WTS rorqual

I appreciate the length and depth of your response, unfortunately I'm going to have to chop it up a bit to poke at specific bits.



As I've said a couple of times here, I think this is probably the actual issue. The issue isn't the dedicated miners who have been mining for years, the issue is all the random Carrier and Super ratters who have gone and dumped a ton of skill injectors into 2 or 3 or 10 characters to get into a Rorqual because suddenly there's this ship that makes almost as much as a Super Carrier (or more if your Alliance does minerals for ships directly) and you can multi-box them a lot easier than a Carrier.



I guess this is where I just sorta scratch my head and shrug a bit. The first round of nerfs weren't particularly controversial, if anything there were just as many people calling for a bigger nerf as for less of one or a different one.

The first nerf clearly didn't stop the slide in the mineral market, and it clearly didn't get many people to change their playstyle, so why is this nerf unjustified when the initial conditions that justified the first one haven't really shifted much?

It feels to me that the reason the second nerf feels unjustified to a lot of people is because it's actually enough of a nerf to make the Rorqual something other than an absolutely certain go-to ship for Null mining, and a better option for buying a Capital or bigger ship than actually getting together the ISK to buy it outright, in basically every instance.



I feel like everything here is grounded in something irrational. The changes are on Sisi and are fairly easily tested, the extent of and impact of these changes are pretty easily mathematically analyzed, at least in terms of mining yield. Even the PANIC change is pretty small for actual miners.

Also if CCP waited longer on this, either on announcing it or on implementing it, the only thing that would change is more people would invest in the current state of things, and the people already invested would have a little more time to exploit this to the maximum. Neither of those is an actually desirable outcome for CCP, as is the current negative market conditions persisting any longer than necessary.

As to the 'dreams you were sold' should CCP put a disclaimer at the top of each set of patch notes that says "All changes are potentially subject to change. We reserve the right to buff and nerf things as we feel is good for the game. Consider this when making decisions based on upcoming changes." Would that fix this apparent investment issue people have with rushing toward new OP things like lemmings?



As weird as this might sound this was pointed out as a potential problem. CCP left it in to see what would happen and see if it would actually be a problem. Generally speaking, at least personally, this is something I like about CCP. They don't lock things down from the outset and lock us into only one use for a ship or module. They give us tools and see what we do with them. It's only when a tool creates a significant problem, either in Risk/Reward or in the use of other tools that something gets changed or nerfed.

Personally I'd rather have that approach than have CCP just create things for one very specific use-case and try to restrict anything that might fall outside that.

Tangent: It's interesting to speculate about why CCP thought the rorqual numbers were reasonable in the first place. Perhaps they expected a spike in mineral demand from alpha clones, who buy/lose ships but have pathetic mining abilities? Or maybe they made predictions based on miners switching from hulks to rorquals, without (sufficiently) factoring in players who had never mined switching into the profession and away from other income streams?

There were posts (like mine ) predicting rorquals would be multiboxed to death within minutes of the changes being announced in October, and I'm sure they saw that coming themselves, but for some reason they underestimated the total economic disruption.

Some eyeballing says it's between 5% and 25% depending on which rock you're mining. The real difficulty though is looking at time horizons. If you go back to the start of the Rorqual changes and look to today several of the higher end minerals that ended up being bottlenecks in the Rorqual-powered economy end up higher now than they were before the initial changes. On the flip side if you go back a month or so and look at today there's a distinct downward trend even on these bottlenecks.

All of these bottleneck ores are scarce in High Sec though, and that's where the mineral surplus is going to have the greatest impact, both because it's mostly High Sec minerals being impacted and because High Sec miners don't have the option of going and getting a Rorqual to compete.

Looking at the price for raw 5 and 10% Jaspet in High Sec it looks like we're sitting at around a 7% drop compared to before the changes (ignoring a weird spike in price right before the changes dropped).

Also, regarding the discussion of Hulks vs Rorquals, the only thing that did was serve to contextualize the changes, since the yield of a Hulk isn't changing. No one in that discussion was pretending that those numbers were what a Rorqual would mine in practice. That was purely for context and to debunk the people throwing around the "The Rorq is only going to mine as much as 2 Hulks!" folks.



Personally I agree, but not at the expense of the mineral market as a whole. We're still looking at a ship that's going to mine multiple times more per character than the next ship down when that ship is fully boosted by the ship we're discussing. The change from T1 mining barges to T2 isn't close to that large of a jump. How is a 3x increase in mining potential per ship not enough to make this the king of the mining line?

If the Rorqual is the only thing anyone should be mining in if they can use it then that's not just being a good ship, that's clearly a broken risk/reward tradeoff. That would be like if Capitals suddenly became the only thing anyone should bring to a fight because you no longer need sub-caps. The last time that came close to happening people raged until CCP fixed it.

Clearly you know nothing about mining, particularly nullsec mining. When Fozzie fucks with lowsec PVP, I'll be happy to hear from you, until then get a clue. The mineral market has undergone steady inflation over the last 5+ years. There was a drop in prices when the drone regions were released about 8 years ago, which was quickly soaked up by an increase in capitals and supers and has been on the rise ever since - WELL PAST THE ORIGINAL PRICES. CCP didn't go making huge nerfs then though, they only nerfed 1 alloy drop, very slightly, to fix the huge drop in zydrine value. Has anything dropped to less than 50% it's pre-excavator value? No? No problem then. In fact, some minerals like mexallon are going up. Show of hands who remembers a 100m Megathrawn or Raven?

In nullsec, Rorquals are the only thing to mine in, until Fozzie gets his head out of his ass and finally builds a reasonable damn interceptor that isn't impossible to kill or catch (apologies Fozzie if you really are just the poor bastard who has to announce everything and get screamed at). Hulks or barges are used to clear the mercoxit and maybe ochre, why else would you put them out when a 'ceptor will rip the tin can apart and get away with it?

FYI, carriers are the new cruisers, EVERYONE in 0.0 rats in them, North, South, drone regions, only place you might not see it being common is npc nullsec and even then it happens. In pvp FAX are the new make or break fleet fight ships. Whoever has the most wins. Either way, subcaps are becoming obsolete, only highly specialized T2/T3 ships have value for anything other than "swarm" fleets - ever see the 100+ man tier 3 bc fleets fielded by NC. and others?. Bring your subcap fleet into someone's sov and see what happens.

And seriously, ******* Jaspet? WTF? Who mines Jaspet in nullsec? Jaspet has absolutely nothing to do with Rorqual mining, unless you have some idiot using one in lowsec in which case I will probably **** myself LOLing when he dies. Any drops in the mineral market are coming from primarily the renter groups who export it to pay their bills, and they aren't selling Jaspet. The major groups are doing exactly what they should be doing, stockpiling for war, which is why so many of us are hitting the roof over this. CCP, this is a bad idea, pay attention to those who actually do the damn nullsec mining. Those who hug highsec will always whine about nullsec goodies.

Yes, but they could fix the multiboxing potential for the Rorqual by turning the Excavators into Fighters. That lowers the multiboxing potential for the ship by making it require more input and more attention.

I like the nerf. For newer players the super strong Rorqual is bad. It makes all other mining ships obsolete. Getting into a Rorqual takes for ever when you have to train 10,000 basic skills first.

A bit of lore opportunity wasted here.

PANIC module should not just require asteroid lock, it should also consume said asteroid to power itself.
Just destroy the asteroid you've found with that procedure of yours, doesn't matter how, simple *poof* is enough.
Amount and type of ore in asteroid isn't important, 1 veldspar is enough.

What will this accomplish? Suddenly, asteroid lock is not just abstract requirement, but make sense - PANIC needs a lot of energy, and now you must point it to energy's source.
And seriously who will care about some roid disappearing at the desperate times of PANIC activation.