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[March] Balance Tweaks: Focused Warp Scrambling Script

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Na'av
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#281 - 2017-02-25 02:41:26 UTC
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:
Na'av wrote:
Calling bullshit on the people that say they bring HICs to their kite fleet comps


So keep calling it bullshit, it won't make it less true.

Na'av wrote:
ecause HICs are slow compared to their t1 variants


Roamers are undocking with oracles / BNIs / HFIs / Faction battleships / Command ships everydays and you believe we can't make up a nano HIC fit ? Do you play this game ?

Na'av wrote:
and slowing down targets that are chasing you is not the point of a kite fleet


What ? Have you ever kited ? Screening everything mwd fitted in a 39,4km radius around your fleet is Golden.


I have a nano shield phobos with 600dps rails in a station somewhere. I don't fly it because the orthrus is better for the job of pointing things. Having that sig bloom from MWD is pretty important for missile application and turret tracking.
Twilight Mourning
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#282 - 2017-02-25 02:42:41 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
When your best answer is bring the very ships that are the problem, then you need to reevaluate your argument.




^^ This.






We have a winner!
Twilight Mourning
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#283 - 2017-02-25 02:44:13 UTC
Na'av wrote:
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:
Na'av wrote:
Calling bullshit on the people that say they bring HICs to their kite fleet comps


So keep calling it bullshit, it won't make it less true.

Na'av wrote:
ecause HICs are slow compared to their t1 variants


Roamers are undocking with oracles / BNIs / HFIs / Faction battleships / Command ships everydays and you believe we can't make up a nano HIC fit ? Do you play this game ?

Na'av wrote:
and slowing down targets that are chasing you is not the point of a kite fleet


What ? Have you ever kited ? Screening everything mwd fitted in a 39,4km radius around your fleet is Golden.


I have a nano shield phobos with 600dps rails in a station somewhere. I don't fly it because the orthrus is better for the job of pointing things. Having that sig bloom from MWD is pretty important for missile application and turret tracking.


No you don't.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#284 - 2017-02-25 03:21:00 UTC
really i do love all the people claiming this is going to kill small gangs some how. as if they only became possible when the hic was given a scram

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Cade Windstalker
#285 - 2017-02-25 03:40:50 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Captain jdd wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Stitch, you know I respect you, but the vitality of solo battecruisers or battleships is not a good thing to balance an entire ship class around. HIC's are not the cancer here. It's the Orthrus, Omen Navy Issue, Keres, Tengu gangs. They are already very strong and now will be even stronger.

Ok. Nomen and Tengu are cancer now.
New.

I don't really understand why you need a 40km scram. Bring Keres and Orthrus too.
Finally it's more a nerf for the kiters who use HIC, cause they know how to play those ships more than blobers or whatever.


So you are admitting that the Keres and Orthrus are overpowered? Thanks. When your best answer is bring the very ships that are the problem, then you need to reevaluate your argument.

For the record, I like the Keres. It is a great ship. The Orthrus is also a fine ship. I just like to see more viable counters. I think all warp disruptor and warp scrambler ranges need to be increased.


So, I think the underlying assumption here may be faulty, which is that the idea behind this change is to nerf anything other than the HIC. I think CCP are changing this simply because HICs as a class are basically totally eclipsing dedicated EWar platforms. Hence leaving the HIC with a Scram option, rather than simply reverting the old change, but shrinking the range in under that of a scram-range bonused ship.

In short, this doesn't feel like the nano-gang nerf people seem to be thinking of it as, so saying "but these ships are the problem!" is assuming CCP sees this as a problem in the first place, or at least is trying to change that at all with this change.
Twilight Mourning
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#286 - 2017-02-25 03:46:55 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Captain jdd wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Stitch, you know I respect you, but the vitality of solo battecruisers or battleships is not a good thing to balance an entire ship class around. HIC's are not the cancer here. It's the Orthrus, Omen Navy Issue, Keres, Tengu gangs. They are already very strong and now will be even stronger.

Ok. Nomen and Tengu are cancer now.
New.

I don't really understand why you need a 40km scram. Bring Keres and Orthrus too.
Finally it's more a nerf for the kiters who use HIC, cause they know how to play those ships more than blobers or whatever.


So you are admitting that the Keres and Orthrus are overpowered? Thanks. When your best answer is bring the very ships that are the problem, then you need to reevaluate your argument.

For the record, I like the Keres. It is a great ship. The Orthrus is also a fine ship. I just like to see more viable counters. I think all warp disruptor and warp scrambler ranges need to be increased.


So, I think the underlying assumption here may be faulty, which is that the idea behind this change is to nerf anything other than the HIC. I think CCP are changing this simply because HICs as a class are basically totally eclipsing dedicated EWar platforms. Hence leaving the HIC with a Scram option, rather than simply reverting the old change, but shrinking the range in under that of a scram-range bonused ship.

In short, this doesn't feel like the nano-gang nerf people seem to be thinking of it as, so saying "but these ships are the problem!" is assuming CCP sees this as a problem in the first place, or at least is trying to change that at all with this change.


It's not a nano-gang nerf. It's a nano-gang buff. They are removing one of the few viable counters to nano-gangs. If the Lach could scram out to that range it would be one thing. But it can't. They are removing the only ship that can do that on it's own. Lach can get, at max, 35.5k with heat and links. (That's top faction scram) The HIC can get 39.5k scram without needing the help of a command ship. So, they are not just removing the only counter to nano that goes to that range but they Lach Arazu won't even fill the gap as they CAN'T scram to that range. Making nano that much more invulnerable to any other fleet but nano.
Cade Windstalker
#287 - 2017-02-25 04:22:20 UTC
Twilight Mourning wrote:
It's not a nano-gang nerf. It's a nano-gang buff. They are removing one of the few viable counters to nano-gangs. If the Lach could scram out to that range it would be one thing. But it can't. They are removing the only ship that can do that on it's own. Lach can get, at max, 35.5k with heat and links. (That's top faction scram) The HIC can get 39.5k scram without needing the help of a command ship. So, they are not just removing the only counter to nano that goes to that range but they Lach Arazu won't even fill the gap as they CAN'T scram to that range. Making nano that much more invulnerable to any other fleet but nano.


The idea that 5km is suddenly making countering these gangs completely non-viable is a bit silly. 35km is still well out of range of any Medium short-range gun platform, and if you can get someone to within 40km you can, almost certainly, get them within 34km.

If this causes some massive shift in the Meta, other than away from HICs, then by all means I hope CCP buff the Gallente EWar ships, but after 15 pages of this the only thing anyone's been able to say on this is that it's going to make this less powerful, it's not going to change the fact that nano vs nano is the meta *currently* and it's not going to do more than slightly weaken this scram-tapping strategy. It's not removing it, and it's not massively changing the meta, it's just making people use EWar cruisers and frigs instead of HICs.
Kagi Anzomi
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#288 - 2017-02-25 04:30:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagi Anzomi
Cade Windstalker wrote:
The idea that 5km is suddenly making countering these gangs completely non-viable is a bit silly. 35km is still well out of range of any Medium short-range gun platform, and if you can get someone to within 40km you can, almost certainly, get them within 34km.

I beg to differ. Pulse lasers can easily go to 35km. A Harbinger with Heavy Pulses and one tracking computer has an optimal of 31.7km and falloff of 42km with Scorch, and a Legion can easily surpass that without any tracking computers. A fairly standard Omen Navy Issue fit with locus coordinators has 46km optimal with Scorch.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#289 - 2017-02-25 05:35:59 UTC
Kagi Anzomi wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
The idea that 5km is suddenly making countering these gangs completely non-viable is a bit silly. 35km is still well out of range of any Medium short-range gun platform, and if you can get someone to within 40km you can, almost certainly, get them within 34km.

I beg to differ. Pulse lasers can easily go to 35km. A Harbinger with Heavy Pulses and one tracking computer has an optimal of 31.7km and falloff of 42km with Scorch, and a Legion can easily surpass that without any tracking computers. A fairly standard Omen Navy Issue fit with locus coordinators has 46km optimal with Scorch.


the ships that use these are also slower....

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Kagi Anzomi
Girls Lie But Zkill Doesn't
Pandemic Legion
#290 - 2017-02-25 07:10:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagi Anzomi
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Kagi Anzomi wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
The idea that 5km is suddenly making countering these gangs completely non-viable is a bit silly. 35km is still well out of range of any Medium short-range gun platform, and if you can get someone to within 40km you can, almost certainly, get them within 34km.

I beg to differ. Pulse lasers can easily go to 35km. A Harbinger with Heavy Pulses and one tracking computer has an optimal of 31.7km and falloff of 42km with Scorch, and a Legion can easily surpass that without any tracking computers. A fairly standard Omen Navy Issue fit with locus coordinators has 46km optimal with Scorch.


the ships that use these are also slower....

Except for the Omen Navy Issue I'll give you that one. That's kind of a moot point though since we've already established that HICs are also slower than the kitey ships they're used against. I hate kiting, but I also have a 100MN Legion that can go 2300m/s cold or 3400m/s heated and can heat for quite a long time. My normal solution to kiting is to just undock the sniping Apocalypse Navy Issue and silently say "you're not welcome here" till they go away.
Daide Vondrichnov
French Drop-O-Panache
Snuffed Out
#291 - 2017-02-25 08:13:21 UTC
Kagi Anzomi wrote:

That's kind of a moot point though since we've already established that HICs are also slower than the kitey ships they're used against


If only HICs could warp to pings... Oh wait.

Kagi Anzomi wrote:

hate kiting, but I also have a 100MN Legion that can go 2300m/s cold or 3400m/s heated and can heat for quite a long time


So you hate kiting but you bought a kiting ship... what ?
Mira Chieve
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#292 - 2017-02-25 08:15:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mira Chieve
Trajan Unknown wrote:
Well, to be honest I never adapted to HICs at all. I never saw them as a serious treat outside of gatecamps because I seriously barely see them out there.


Weird, my experience is that every time I undock a Nanotempest / Nano BC a HIC shows up within the next 10 minutes to screw me over.
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns
#293 - 2017-02-25 09:19:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ugly Eric
Too many ppl to quote, so i wont.

To yall concidering why we kiters dont use lach instead of hic:

Is a complicated reason. First off the simple stuff. While hic mobility is lower than lach, it still is easily good enough. Especially on the era without off grid boosts. Also a hic is tanky. Even the kitey devoter with single resist and single rep is tanky. Thirdly it has deeps. 400-600 dps. In a ship that is tanky, mobile, has awesome utility.
Choosing a lach would mean i need second ship to do the deeps and/or antitackle, thus enlargening my gang and thus making finding fights even harder it already is.

We eve players have become so retardedly risk averse fucks that is not fun no more. I bet 90% of ppl in this discussion have never taken a hic outside dockingrange of a station. Nullbears loathe kiters and kiters loathe nullbears. Why would a kiting fleet want tous brawl in the undock? Why would a brawler want to follow the kiter? Ofc not.

The 40km scram on a hic was way too overpowered. Many of ya nullbears hate this change beacause it takes away security from you. Many of us kiters hate this change beacause it takes away security from us. And many of each groups members seems to be unable to understand the opposing groups thoughts.

I support this change beacause i have personally been involved in the rude abusing of this ship classes overpowered capabilities. Once again:

-any frig outside keres/maulus has been totally unable to tackle a hic
-not any one shipclass should be able to fullfill so many different roles with such ease
-while diversity is good, too broad and too specialized diversity is bad
-40km scram, while good tool- should not be possible without pimping, links and overheat. It just is too powerfull tool otherwise.
-broad(more range to weapons) phobos(dronebay) should get some love

Also ya'll saying there is no hics around: oh, but there are. They wont show up on ZKB due to kiting ppl avoiding them like plague and kiters not killing gamewide enough ppl to actually get on top10's.
Na'av
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#294 - 2017-02-25 10:45:42 UTC
Twilight Mourning wrote:

No you don't.


No YOU don't.

Any more relevant thoughts mister naysayer?
Ramses Davaham
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#295 - 2017-02-25 11:09:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramses Davaham
Stupid Question maybe? - Tried to see if someone asked this or not in this threadnaught.

Does the Script still "perma-scram/disrupt" (as in break warp-stab/interdiction nullifiers) ? Like in high sec for example.

In other words....as its a "focused" script....you lock a ship..and it don't matter if it can nullify or warp stab you back....your scrammed.

Still getting a handle on mechanics.

Thx

o7
Lucy Callagan
Goryn Clade
#296 - 2017-02-25 11:48:45 UTC
Ramses Davaham wrote:
Stupid Question maybe? - Tried to see if someone asked this or not in this threadnaught.

Does the Script still "perma-scram/disrupt" (as in break warp-stab/interdiction nullifiers) ? Like in high sec for example.

In other words....as its a "focused" script....you lock a ship..and it don't matter if it can nullify or warp stab you back....your scrammed.

Still getting a handle on mechanics.

Thx

o7


From what I've understood, the 40km script will still have an infinite point strenght but won't cut off mwds
Ramses Davaham
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#297 - 2017-02-25 12:07:20 UTC
Lucy Callagan wrote:
Ramses Davaham wrote:
Stupid Question maybe? - Tried to see if someone asked this or not in this threadnaught.

Does the Script still "perma-scram/disrupt" (as in break warp-stab/interdiction nullifiers) ? Like in high sec for example.

In other words....as its a "focused" script....you lock a ship..and it don't matter if it can nullify or warp stab you back....your scrammed.

Still getting a handle on mechanics.

Thx

o7


From what I've understood, the 40km script will still have an infinite point strenght but won't cut off mwds



"Just" the 40KM script?
That disrupt AND scram?
Thx
Lukka
#298 - 2017-02-25 12:09:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lukka
That's a -40% range bonus. (21/35) (x100%).

Seems extreme to me for a ship class which was hardly over-used. It further plays into the fast (uncatchable) ship meta which predominates small gang warfare and makes the heavy interdictors class effectively useless outside of supercap tackle again.

Why this change is unfavourable:

1. Serves to further restrict small gang ship and meta choices.
2. Makes heavy interdictors effectively useless outside of supercapital tackle.
3. Restricts viable fitting options to passive tank dual tackle script for reason 2, above.
4. No rationale is provided for the change beyond an anecdote for which no evidence is given.
Ugly Eric
Fistful of Finns
#299 - 2017-02-25 12:42:52 UTC
Lukka wrote:
That's a -40% range bonus. (21/35) (x100%).

Seems extreme to me for a ship class which was hardly over-used. It further plays into the fast (uncatchable) ship meta which predominates small gang warfare and makes the heavy interdictors class effectively useless outside of supercap tackle again.

Why this change is unfavourable:

1. Serves to further restrict small gang ship and meta choices.
2. Makes heavy interdictors effectively useless outside of supercapital tackle.
3. Restricts viable fitting options to passive tank dual tackle script for reason 2, above.
4. No rationale is provided for the change beyond an anecdote for which no evidence is given.


The -20% bonus to range is from a unscripted WDFG, not scripted. The focused script we now have has a rangebonus of +50% and now we get the scramblescript with bonus of -20%
Trajan Unknown
State War Academy
Caldari State
#300 - 2017-02-25 12:56:48 UTC
Ugly Eric wrote:
Too many ppl to quote, so i wont.

To yall concidering why we kiters dont use lach instead of hic:

Is a complicated reason. First off the simple stuff. While hic mobility is lower than lach, it still is easily good enough. Especially on the era without off grid boosts. Also a hic is tanky. Even the kitey devoter with single resist and single rep is tanky. Thirdly it has deeps. 400-600 dps. In a ship that is tanky, mobile, has awesome utility.
Choosing a lach would mean i need second ship to do the deeps and/or antitackle, thus enlargening my gang and thus making finding fights even harder it already is.

We eve players have become so retardedly risk averse fucks that is not fun no more. I bet 90% of ppl in this discussion have never taken a hic outside dockingrange of a station. Nullbears loathe kiters and kiters loathe nullbears. Why would a kiting fleet want tous brawl in the undock? Why would a brawler want to follow the kiter? Ofc not.

The 40km scram on a hic was way too overpowered. Many of ya nullbears hate this change beacause it takes away security from you. Many of us kiters hate this change beacause it takes away security from us. And many of each groups members seems to be unable to understand the opposing groups thoughts.

I support this change beacause i have personally been involved in the rude abusing of this ship classes overpowered capabilities. Once again:

-any frig outside keres/maulus has been totally unable to tackle a hic
-not any one shipclass should be able to fullfill so many different roles with such ease
-while diversity is good, too broad and too specialized diversity is bad
-40km scram, while good tool- should not be possible without pimping, links and overheat. It just is too powerfull tool otherwise.
-broad(more range to weapons) phobos(dronebay) should get some love

Also ya'll saying there is no hics around: oh, but there are. They wont show up on ZKB due to kiting ppl avoiding them like plague and kiters not killing gamewide enough ppl to actually get on top10's.



Had to quote you, because there is some stuff to address but one thing first.

Can we please, once and for all stop saying "40km scram"? It is 37.5km with max skills and t2 focus point. Stop looking dumb because you speak of 39.5/40km scrams. There is no such thing. Thank you. :)
My Arazu/Lachscram goes up to 30.5 for the record. Plus dampener I am pretty much in the same boat as a HIC without being a clunky, sluggish hull that will die as soon as we have to run. Cost is the same or even cheaper by a little compared to a HIC. Tank is the same compared to a "fast/nano" HIC and I am way faster and bring more utility to the fleet while rendering any other HIC point useless.


I personally fly all space except hi-sec and I barely see HICs out there. It has nothing to do with killboard stats or alike they are not out there when it comes to small gangs. You find them in gatecamp compostions, on stations and in "real" fleets. But you will not see many of them in small gangs. If you see them out there, let me know, I am eager to find me some HICs outside of fleet fights, gatecamps and station games.