Warfare & Tactics

The dual timer idea is considerably more forgiving to rabbit plexing. Not only does it require the pvper to stay in the plex while it rollsback to neutral but more importantly it would not effect rabbit plexers who run from pirates. This is likely a substantial number of combatants who enter plexes.

So the question really is how important is it to eliminate rabbit plexing. This highlights Master Sergeants MacRobert's point




There was a time when the vast majority of fw players were clearly behind timer rollbacks and everyone hoped they would do away with rabbit plexing. CCP acknowledged this popular support and promised rollbacks and better intel tools. But CCP never changed anything so those who remain are almost by definition those who don't think rabbit plexing is that big of a problem.

The proposals Thanatos made are all fine and good but they are not going to change anything respecting rabbit plexing. This has caused endless disenchantment with faction war since it started. Many had hopes that Hans would push to end that when he was in CSM but alas it was not to be. Instead we had more changes that tweaked tier systems and benefits as well as tweaks to npcs back and forth that really never addressed why many people think the fw sov system is fundamentally broken.

It is interesting that those who now remain in faction war don't even list rollbacks as a change they want.

Bottom line is CCP has to decide whether they think rabbit plexing is good or bad. They seemed to say it was bad and promised to take measures against it but then we just never heard from them again.

It would be great if someone from CSM would at least ask CCP what the deal is with these changes. I give citations to the promises in an earlier post if anyone is interested:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6607431#post6607431

If you want people in plexes to be pvpers then the more disruption to rabbit plexing the better. The side that can pvp better will have the better chances of winning plexes and therefor the sov war. The pvp may be against pirates or it might be against the enemy it really doesn't matter to most pvpers.

Keep in mind both sides will have to deal with pirates. So unless there is some sort of deal worked out with neutrals (and such diplomacy is something eve has always supported) then both sides are still on equal footing. Plexes will be harder to win. Its true. But perhaps they should award more victory points if that is the case. (I don't really care about loyalty points)

Also I would point out that there are still some advantages to the fw player in the plex:
1) They are in the plex to begin with so can set up range (this is substantial)
2) FW players who just want to win the plex just need to fight off the person entering. So they can have very long range weapons and don't even really need to worry about fitting a point. For the nonfaction war player looking for a kill they would need to fit a point and just chasing someone doesn't really accomplish their purpose.

I don't think it's a dichotomy like you suggest. It can be a pvp game about capturing plexes and systems. And yes IMO I think FW sov should be a pvp game.

If you want to do the whole rabbit v. hunter thing you can do fw missions. Players also have many non fw options in eve to do hunter v rabbit games in null, wormholes and low sec. Missions, exploration, sleeper sites, ratting, special events etc etc. IMO Eve really doesn't need yet another rabbit v hunter mechanic. It needs more good quallity pvp war mechanics. And leaving fw sov as yet another hunter v rabbit game is not good for fw and is especially bad for eve as a whole.

The sov game should simply be better than who can multibox the most alts in different plexes and warp off if trouble comes.

As far as making isk, I don't care if ccp wants to increase the amount of lp per plex. Fewer plexes captured but the same amount of total lp given to plexers. Or they could lower the amount of lp fw missions offer. (which would make the lp in plexes comparatively more valuable.) But right now the lp is just getting devalued by people multiboxing alts and rabbit plexing. If you want that lp to be worth more isk you might want to end rabbit plexing as well.

But the key is to make winning sov fun. If people are just grinding plexes so they can make isk for their null sec main then fw is not where it should be. EVE players need fulfilling game-play that they want to actually spend that isk on. IMO fighting for faction war sov could be a mechanic like that - if ccp makes the changes it promised the players. But as the years go by and the promises are forgotten more eve players leave fw and maybe even the game as a whole.

Why citadels is a problem in FW space in comparison to POSes?

CCP has given us null sec for wars that actually impact the people involved. FW is intentionally static, so that people can relax and find fights. Otherwise, the wars would have ended long ago, as one side in each conflict became dominant and crushed the other. We don't want the Caldari State going the way of Band of Brothers, for example.

The current tier system is fine. There is a common misconception that tier 1 is too punitive as its half that of tier 2.

Fact is that its very likely that your LP will become worth twice that of the opposing faction. This might take a little time since hte market has to adjust to supply but if you ignore the market in your appraisal of how the tier system works then you really do not understand what you are talking about.

In practical terms, tier 1 is not -50% of tier 2. And tier 4 is not +150% of tier 2.

This is compounded by those that put time in to getting the best rates for their items with sell orders etc.

Im not opposed to a change, but many people see problems with the tier system that just done exist.



This is not true, Null is FW-LITE.

FW offers just as many bragging rights, though perhaps not the resources. The fact that null is governed by timer after timer encouraging huge formups for pings and inactivity while things are not vulnerable, FW is a 24 hour battle. Any time you dont log in for 3 days straight, any 3 days, your home station could be inaccessible to you.

Citadels have been mentioned here. TBH, that seriously damaged the station lock out system which IMO was one of the primary motivations for many to undock and make things happen. Now station lock outs are almost meaningless, and even killing a citadel results in practically no loss, FW is very similar to what it was before inferno.

Every single big event in FW for the last few years has been due to station lock outs and to some degree the tier system. Before tiers and station lock outs, FW was completely dead.

You have a very niche POV, that of a lone incursus/punisher pilot who flies alone and has a remarkably narrow engagement envelope and therefore see very few potential targets. Even if FW became super active again, and every plex was filled with PVPers. You would complain about how FW is just blobs and they are all the wrong type op PVPers.

As with most low end soloers, you put your chosen game play on a pedestal as if thats what it is to play EVE, at the expense of most other players.

As for the LP store, there is a lag, but i have seen huge swings in LP values across all 4 factions depending on their tier levels. The LP store has never yet prevented any single faction from 'swinging back'. And of course, if someone dumps a load of LP the market is crashed, but that always proven to be just momentary. Since all factions LP has varied in worth from 600/800 isk/LP to 2000/2500 isk/LP.

And on citadels. I would argue that they are good in mechanical terms. Im not a big fan of vulnerability timers or windows but i accept them. However good they are in general terms, they are completely incompatible with how FW has been for the last few years. During which time FW has generated more content than at any other time other than perhaps the first few months before everyone realise how there was no point to it and moved on.

Assuming thats a serious question. The difference between a POS and a citadel is like night and day. POSes are notoriously hard to live and work out of with huge security issues, time consuming and potentially dangerous logistics and is subject to attack at any time and the defender has to be available at that time to manufacture a favourable out timer.

Not to mention the asset safety, which you dismiss as though it aint no thang.

My suggetion would be that FW mechanics overrule any and all standings set by a citadel thereby preventing any WT from docking in any citadel in a system occupied by the opposing faction. This would restore the defensive advantage that was a part of system sieges. It would also restore the entire point of the siege in the first place.

But if we remove the farmers from the equation then the whole system falls apart.

Indeed, Citadels are a very different animal from a POS. POS requires a great deal more effort on every level and because of that it does not negate the homefield advantage. IMO, if a hostile force can turn a POS into a consistent advantage in system then im OK with that due to my appreciation of the challenges that would need to be overcome to do so.

Im sure that anyone that has fought from a POS during a system push will appreciate the utter chaos that quickly descends. Damaged ships, no readily available ammo, off-lined mods, shield passwords, POS defences, standings of multiple corps/alliances and NPC militia, trust issues, hanger access, assett theft due to password leaks, having to light cynos on hostile stations for logistics etc...

Im not sure what the deployment rules are for citadels in null space regarding ownership of the system you want to anchor it. However, as i mentioned before, FW is a 24/7 battle. FW occupancy does not have the safety net that null SOV does with its systems being defended by a multi stage timer system.

In FW, if all plexes are captured promptly, its possible to swing a system in less than 30 hours of continuous plexing (3.5% per hour average) from any starting point. There is NO equivalent of that in NULL. In NULL there is no requirement to log in to defend your null space apart from during well broadcasted timers.