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Wardec Defender Abilities

Author
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2016-12-01 03:33:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
I have fun in the actual fights, not in looking at a list of stats after the fact, but that's just me. This is a game, not my job.

True, and so do I. But this alone only really works for small fights where I do my thing, where I can overlook the battlefield situation and the friends fighting alongside me. In a bigger fight, and this really starts around 20-30-ish people, it's more than just myself and a couple of guys I can see and talk to while I'm fighting. And then winning and losing really gets more important, even if winning just means that my team killed more than the other team. Maybe I'll go pop, and then my fleet decides to pull out. Well, that sucks. But hey, while they were killing me, my guys killed five of the other groups ships, and in the end our kills outweigh our losses - so that's cool. Games are also about winning and losing for me, and that alone makes a big portion of the fun I'm having.

It's a bit like the difference between just a couple lads having fun kicking a ball around in the yard, not really counting who scored how many times and a full football team going up against another one. Even if they aren't playing in a league or competing for a cup, the latter ones would want to know if they actually won or not, and how many times each team scored and that goes for the keeper as well, who from his end of the field probably can't tell what's going on at the other end and is not personally involved with scoring goals.

Frankly, I'd be fine with just private corporation- or alliance-level killboards, where just me and my guys can see how we fared. For me, this doesn't really need to be made public, and I couldn't care less about how others think about my killboard stats, but I personally want to know. Unfortunately, I don't really see a way to make this happen. As I said earlier - if the information is available, it will one way or another be available for everyone.

One thing I could see though would be to just remove fitting information from kill- and lossmails. Just the ship, and maybe how expensive it was at that time by average market prices. Much less "free intel", but still serves the purpose of showing who won the "isk war". Wouldn't help to encourage people to take a fight, because they could still see how "dangerous" the enemy is.

But then again, many people, especially highsec dwellers will probably just assume the enemy is too dangerous and not fight anyway, if they had no way of knowing. A popular saying goes "if you get a fair fight in Eve, somebody made a mistake". This means that if someone willingly takes a fight, he's likely confident he can win. So, if you are up against an opponent who clearly wants to fight you, but you know nothing about beyond that, it's smart to assume that he's in the better position. So, no - not seeing on a killboard that your foes are indeed dangerous will not lead most people to believe that they are not. People who aren't willing to fight a foe who looks dangerous on a killboard would probably not be willing to fight a foe they know nothing about either.

Another downside to this would be, that we couldn't all laugh at triple tanked rapid light missile ravens and PLEX haulers anymore. Not a huge deal, but still noteworthy.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#82 - 2016-12-01 07:02:30 UTC
I am KOS to CVA, but I do know why... Big smile

Killboards, Remiel is quite right in terms of the intelligence, I have flown with people who do not update their killboard at all as it gives too much intel away and I for that reason no longer have an API to give that data to any killboard.

But I do not honestly think that killboards are the reason for this in hisec, the most important reason is that there is a significant number of player in hisec who have no real interest in PvP, Then add to that happy mix those that are willing to try but have not skilled for it and then those that have have a dislike of just giving kills away for no gain and you have the picture. On top of that all the new player recruiting by 0.0 alliances has also drained hisec of people who would go for it and then the final nail in the coffin is that if you do fight back you get dog piled by various entities looking for someone to fight.

When I say this I often get a blast by people, but that is the reality of hisec, take it from one who tried to get people to fight back, but failed because of the above reasons. Add to that the ease of corp hopping and fleeing to NPC corps and away we go. Players like me of course know how to play when faced with such odds, I can continue to play Eve with a war dec because I just treat hisec like NPC 0.0 when I have wars, it is no big deal. But that means I am not much fun because I pick and choose my fights just like the people who are hisec mercs, though I do like a good brawl where I have a chance to kill something.

And if you look at the killboards of hisec war dec entities you will find that most of their victims are not hisec entities, but nullsec people doing their shopping or selling stuff.

That is why I pushed for something that gives a sense that people can be an irritant to those that war dec them, to give those with a bit more about them something within their capabilities, not to blindly throw themselves at a bling proteus with twin neutral logi for example. And as I have pointed out on other threads chasing fast warping ships such as pipe humpers reminds me too much of kiting Cynabels in 0.0 to get my juices flowing, been there and done it and found it tedious as hell.

So I don't think killboards are the issue, it is the player base attitude on both sides. I do think that the war dec system is quite good and just needs some slight adjustments and improved notifications Big smile.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#83 - 2016-12-01 08:01:44 UTC
If only they required corps to have a citadel or assets in space and/or required such things to be deccable and able to dec

But Eve still sucks I see I pop in here and the problems persist.

Back to Kekposting snowflakes into their safe spaces for now..

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#84 - 2016-12-01 08:12:38 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
If only they required corps to have a citadel or assets in space and/or required such things to be deccable and able to dec

Why would they do something so ******* stupid as that.

If people want to form a Corp, they take the risks associated with it, assets or no assets.

It's Corps that are deccable. No different for attacker or defender.

You dumb carebears and your whoa is me attitudes.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#85 - 2016-12-01 15:26:54 UTC
Wrong kind of woe.
Prince Kobol
#86 - 2016-12-01 16:45:55 UTC
Tom Gerard wrote:
Defense players should be able to force the attackers out of station.

The attackers already turned off CONCORD for pocket money, and then they just dock forever.

To counter balance the CONCORD light switch, defenders should be able to eject attackers from stations.

At the minimum this should be looked at in the same light of AFK cloakers.





I always counter the argument against afk cloakers with this.

Show me one kill mail when somebody who was afk killed somebody

After many many many years nobody has yet to show me this
Prince Kobol
#87 - 2016-12-01 16:55:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Kara Hawke wrote:
Sorry but the ideas here are literally game breaking. High sec wardeccs need to be addressed however.

We've been in a war for five weeks by someone who we believe has a ton of different different accounts. He'll show up randomly and kill someone then sit in station afk for 12 hours. We've lost quite a few ships to his surprise attacks and everyone is afraid of doing anything. The dec lapsed this last weekend and people started doing things again - only to have him start a new one Sunday night. Last night there were 2 people on and I was one to them. People in my corp are quickly losing interest in the game.

I love Eve and I don't want It to turn into WoW with everything nerfed and dumbed down... but without some sort of protections in place, the game just becomes a waste of time for most pve'ers. Also bare in the mind the people quitting are the ones making your ships and modules.


I understand how frustrating this is but there are few ways you can combat this.

First thing is as soon as you are war decced use https://evewho.com and https://zkillboard.com. Between these two sites it should give you a very good idea which characters are and have been in the corp that has decced you.

The second thing is, you are a corp, do stuff together in groups, try not to fly solo.

Fly relative cheap but fun ships. Combination of ECM, Tackle etc. Use the war dec as experience for PvP.

Experiment with different ships / fittings / fleet comps. Use the war dec to your advantage and you never know, you might find it fun.

The most important thing to remember thou is it is just a game and its just pixels being blow up. Do not rage at him in local, don't get frustrated, if anything do opposite. If he kills you then say nice kill in local and gf him.

I spent about 3 - 4 months war deccing HS corps and got a few kills, truth be told I didn't find it that fun but the ones I remember the best and spoke to, gave advice to were those who didn't shout or rage, but had some fun. Those who came at us in frigs with ECM and tackle.

The were good guys and I ended up giving back in isk the value of ships they lost as a thank you for having fun.

I am not saying that all HS war deccers are like this but there are a few.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#88 - 2016-12-01 16:57:01 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Tom Gerard wrote:
Defense players should be able to force the attackers out of station.

The attackers already turned off CONCORD for pocket money, and then they just dock forever.

To counter balance the CONCORD light switch, defenders should be able to eject attackers from stations.

At the minimum this should be looked at in the same light of AFK cloakers.





I always counter the argument against afk cloakers with this.

Show me one kill mail when somebody who was afk killed somebody

After many many many years nobody has yet to show me this


No one answers that question because it is meaningless... Roll

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Prince Kobol
#89 - 2016-12-01 16:58:28 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Tom Gerard wrote:
Defense players should be able to force the attackers out of station.

The attackers already turned off CONCORD for pocket money, and then they just dock forever.

To counter balance the CONCORD light switch, defenders should be able to eject attackers from stations.

At the minimum this should be looked at in the same light of AFK cloakers.





I always counter the argument against afk cloakers with this.

Show me one kill mail when somebody who was afk killed somebody

After many many many years nobody has yet to show me this


No one answers that question because it is meaningless... Roll



No, its because it is impossible to be killed by somebody who is afk. Its just that people don't like to admit that it like you :)
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#90 - 2016-12-01 16:59:29 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Tom Gerard wrote:
Defense players should be able to force the attackers out of station.

The attackers already turned off CONCORD for pocket money, and then they just dock forever.

To counter balance the CONCORD light switch, defenders should be able to eject attackers from stations.

At the minimum this should be looked at in the same light of AFK cloakers.





I always counter the argument against afk cloakers with this.

Show me one kill mail when somebody who was afk killed somebody

After many many many years nobody has yet to show me this


No one answers that question because it is meaningless... Roll



No, its because it is impossible to be killed by somebody who is afk. Its just that people don't like to admit that it like you :)


It is meaningless... Roll

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Salvos Rhoska
#91 - 2016-12-01 17:07:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
OPs proposal is completely unworkable and unfair, insofar as NPC stations.

CONCORD doesnt care about Wardec (cos its YPUR war, not theirs), and neither does the NPC station.
Wardec is against capsuleer corps, not the NPC station owner.
CONCORD does not involve themselves in inter-corp warfare.

They have no reason to allow ejec5ion of either attacker or defender, from either NPC or CONCORD stations.
(And yes, CONCORD also owns stations. They are not just a space fleet. The CONCORD stattions are hubs for return of various ingame items harvested off pirates)

Its not their war.

NPC Corps are not wardeccable, except for FW Militias, which are a different issue with their own rules of engagement, and auto atically at war (meaning no wardec).

Ive argued before for being able to wardec NPC Corps, but it got no traction.
I cba to pursue that line of argument again, so its up to someone else.
I still believe there are rational, valid reasons for this, or alternatively to make NPC corps automatically at war with others (similiar to Militias), but I simply cba to crusade for this anymore. I think it would be good for EVE, and Id support it, but I simply dont have the time or interest to advocate it.

In anycase, the above NPC situation is not relevant to OPs "concern". Cos he is not in an NPC Corp, nor wardecced as in one.

There are already so many ways to avoid the effects of a Wardec in terms of NPC station camping:
-Fly an alt.
-Fly a clone.
-Abandon corp and form a new one.
-Join NPC Corp.
-Relocate operations elsewhere.
-Hire Mercs to deal with the threat.
-Pay for protection from randoms in Local to safely undock.
-Join an alliance or integrate into another more powerful Corp.
-Just wait till they are afk/asleep to escape.
-Use safe un/dock bookmarks.
-Dock somewhere else so they lose your trail.
-HTFU and blow them out of your space.
-Many, many other options.

This is a non-issue.

I feel great shame that this thread even exists and has continued this long...

No. Request denied.
Prince Kobol
#92 - 2016-12-01 17:26:00 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Tom Gerard wrote:
Defense players should be able to force the attackers out of station.

The attackers already turned off CONCORD for pocket money, and then they just dock forever.

To counter balance the CONCORD light switch, defenders should be able to eject attackers from stations.

At the minimum this should be looked at in the same light of AFK cloakers.





I always counter the argument against afk cloakers with this.

Show me one kill mail when somebody who was afk killed somebody

After many many many years nobody has yet to show me this


No one answers that question because it is meaningless... Roll



No, its because it is impossible to be killed by somebody who is afk. Its just that people don't like to admit that it like you :)


It is meaningless... Roll


Lol.. if makes you happy then cool
Prince Kobol
#93 - 2016-12-01 17:29:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


I feel great shame that this thread even exists and has continued this long...




Whilst the original poster may be trolling a little, these threads will always continue to appear because newer players are given zero information during the NPE so they do not know the many do's and do not's of dealing with HS War Decs.

It is the age old argument of how much information should be made available in game and how much information should exist on 3rd Party Sites and to what extent should of player go searching for answers external from any official CCP site/page/source

It is easy for experience players such as ourselves to say there are many ways to avoid/face a wardec but if you are new you are not going to know any of these ways.

I would go back to what I have said over the years and many others, that at some point during the NPE new players should be given information about Eve Uni and the likes of RvB.

These guys can teach new players more about Eve in 1 day then the NPE could ever do.
Salvos Rhoska
#94 - 2016-12-01 17:54:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
I did my best to outline a dozen alternatives inorder to educate OP on his options.
I tried to help. Ive been active i rookie/help channels whenever I can

Yes, I agree that this is part of the learning process, and that the learning curve is nigh vertical, especially compared to risk..
I cant speak to the NPE, but arguably EVE takes years to understand anyways, meaning its impossible to create an NPE that covers all angles to prevent such threads in future.

What centrally concerns me though, but I havent tried the NPE, is that the aggressive, dangerous PVP nature of EVE is apparently still not being sufficiently communicated.

This has been said time and time again, but many new players still dont understand this fundemantal difference in EVE as co pared to other MMOs.

But there is no excuse for OPs ingorance or discontent.
The data is widely aailable, thanks to free player sourced sites, and so are the options multitude to escape his problem.

His conclusion and request is false He has not internalized how dangerous EVE is, nor how many options he has to secure against that..

I have sympathy for his concern, but it is categorically wrong.

I can only hope he is still reading and takes heed of our advice, and adopts a mindset and understanding necessary to survive in EVE, especially in ones early days.

PS: I dont believe OP is a noob. He compares the station sitting situation to cloaked afking, which belies more EVE experience than he predicates. He also argues for an advantage of being able to eject a wardeccing corp/player out of an NPC station so basically he can surprise them with an attack whenevrr he wants (Ergo: Ejecting an afk player from NPC station when you want, to shoot them while they are away). He also wants that option only for defenders in a wardec. Its incredibly unfair, selfish and short-sighted.. His proposition is not out of ignorance, but shameless self-advantage.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#95 - 2016-12-01 18:04:53 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
OPs proposal is completely unworkable and unfair, insofar as NPC stations.

CONCORD doesnt care about Wardec (cos its YPUR war, not theirs), and neither does the NPC station.
Wardec is against capsuleer corps, not the NPC station owner.
CONCORD does not involve themselves in inter-corp warfare.

They have no reason to allow ejec5ion of either attacker or defender, from either NPC or CONCORD stations.
(And yes, CONCORD also owns stations. They are not just a space fleet. The CONCORD stattions are hubs for return of various ingame items harvested off pirates)

Its not their war.

NPC Corps are not wardeccable, except for FW Militias, which are a different issue with their own rules of engagement, and auto atically at war (meaning no wardec).

Ive argued before for being able to wardec NPC Corps, but it got no traction.
I cba to pursue that line of argument again, so its up to someone else.
I still believe there are rational, valid reasons for this, or alternatively to make NPC corps automatically at war with others (similiar to Militias), but I simply cba to crusade for this anymore. I think it would be good for EVE, and Id support it, but I simply dont have the time or interest to advocate it.

In anycase, the above NPC situation is not relevant to OPs "concern". Cos he is not in an NPC Corp, nor wardecced as in one.

There are already so many ways to avoid the effects of a Wardec in terms of NPC station camping:
-Fly an alt.
-Fly a clone.
-Abandon corp and form a new one.
-Join NPC Corp.
-Relocate operations elsewhere.
-Hire Mercs to deal with the threat.
-Pay for protection from randoms in Local to safely undock.
-Join an alliance or integrate into another more powerful Corp.
-Just wait till they are afk/asleep to escape.
-Use safe un/dock bookmarks.
-Dock somewhere else so they lose your trail.
-HTFU and blow them out of your space.
-Many, many other options.

This is a non-issue.

I feel great shame that this thread even exists and has continued this long...

No. Request denied.


Often a corp wardeccing another corp will have multiple wars going at the same time, contact those other corporations/alliances see if you can't work together to boost numbers and yes...make them dock up. Do this often enough they'll drop the war dec and congratulations, you've won. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Salvos Rhoska
#96 - 2016-12-01 18:21:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Teckos Pech wrote:
Often a corp wardeccing another corp will have multiple wars going at the same time, contact those other corporations/alliances see if you can't work together to boost numbers and yes...make them dock up. Do this often enough they'll drop the war dec and congratulations, you've won. Roll


Well said. Yet another option, should the circumstances be such.

I get the vibe, since you chose to express this, that this exactly is an option you or your corp once used, or accepted such an offer from another corp.

Beautiful solution and fundamentally what EVE is all about at its best..

There are, unfortunately, many areas of EVE where options are few.
Dealing with wardecs, however, are fortunately not one of them.
There are atleast a dozen options.
Perhaps, too many.

These also causes problems for Mercenary /Privateer/Bounty HuntingCorps, but that is another topic for another thread, with its own issues.

Nonetheless, OPs position, is nonsense, unworkable, and false.
Ejecting a player out of an NPC station by another player is unacceptable.
The potential of exploitation of this is unthinkable.
Suddenly players across space, especially in HS, would be ejected involuntarily to be blapped immediately by waiting enemies at their convenience.

The notion is patently stupid and false.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#97 - 2016-12-01 18:26:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Often a corp wardeccing another corp will have multiple wars going at the same time, contact those other corporations/alliances see if you can't work together to boost numbers and yes...make them dock up. Do this often enough they'll drop the war dec and congratulations, you've won. Roll


Well said. Yet another option, should the circumstances be such.

I get the vibe, since you chose to express this, that this exactly is an option you or your corp once used, or accepted such an offer from another corp.

Beautiful solution and fundamentally what EVE is all about at its best..

There are, unfortunately, many areas of EVE where options are few.
Dealing with wardecs, however, are fortunately not one of them.
There are atleast a dozen options.

Having said that, these also causes problems for Mercenary /Privateer/Bounty HuntingCorps, but that is another topic for another thread, with its own issues.

OPs position, is nonsense, unworkable, and false.
Ejecting a player out of an NPC station is unacceptable.


Correct, we (this with a number of my alts and others in a HS indy corp) found another corp that they decced that was receptive to the idea. We set up an in-game channel to share intel, and they had voice comms they let us access and we would routinely force them to dock up and then camp the station until they logged off. Since that is not what they signed up for, they let both wars lapse. We had fun, made new friends, and they did not. Good outcome as far as I am concerned. Big smile

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Salvos Rhoska
#98 - 2016-12-01 18:35:15 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Correct, we (this with a number of my alts) found another corp that they decced that was receptive to the idea. We set up an in-game channel to share intel, and they had voice comms they let us access and we would routinely force them to dock up and then camp the station until they logged off. Since that is not what they signed up for, they let both wars lapse. We had fun, made new friends, and they did not. Good outcome as far as I am concerned. Big smile


Very well played.
EVE at its best..

o7
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#99 - 2016-12-01 18:50:47 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
But then again, many people, especially highsec dwellers will probably just assume the enemy is too dangerous and not fight anyway, if they had no way of knowing. A popular saying goes "if you get a fair fight in Eve, somebody made a mistake". This means that if someone willingly takes a fight, he's likely confident he can win. So, if you are up against an opponent who clearly wants to fight you, but you know nothing about beyond that, it's smart to assume that he's in the better position. So, no - not seeing on a killboard that your foes are indeed dangerous will not lead most people to believe that they are not. People who aren't willing to fight a foe who looks dangerous on a killboard would probably not be willing to fight a foe they know nothing about either.


I'd gladly give up being able to stroke my ego after a large battle to see stats in exchange for more/better fights. What you said simply still boils down to ego, which is silly when talking about a video game.

The saying that "If you get in a fair fight in EVE somebody made a mistake" is exactly what I want to change. People like ganking, not fighting, which is unbelievably boring. Why would someone care if they lost a fight if there were no killboards? That's the point here.
Salvos Rhoska
#100 - 2016-12-01 19:41:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
We are now going well beyond the (false) point of OP.

But it is relevant, in that people have different reasons to fight.
Some want fights for fights sake.
Some want them to learn and practice.
Some want to deplete/discourage an enemy.
Some do it for isk.
Some for territory/resources.
Some are forced into fights with no intention of having one.

Which brings us to killboards.
Ive never liked them.

Imo they are an infringement against a players autonomy as to their own background.
APIs can share this data, to whom they are submitted, but public boards, not so much.

Im overall against free data, of all sorts, in EVE, especially including market data.
Im ok with dotlan style data of ship destruction/jumps, barely, though honestly Id prefer if even that was not available.

My reasoning for this, is the unknown and unpredictable is what creates opportunity at commensurate risk.

Information/data is too valuable to be given freely, and free access to it is directly restricting of opportunity..

ISK/PLEX/all the assets of EVE, are nothing compared to information/data. Informa4ion/data are the utmost valuable.

Id much prefer that all this data was only accessible first hand by being there, and then disseminated by contract/deals to other interests.

Althpugh I utilize them, Id much rather not have the option of access to so many 3rd party data/information compilers.
There is too much free data, on just about everything and everyone.
Yes, intelligent analysis of this data creates personal opportunity, but less data would create far more generalized, and also personal opportunity.

I dont expect this to change, but I wish it would.