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Wardec Defender Abilities

Author
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2016-12-01 21:03:23 UTC
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
The saying that "If you get in a fair fight in EVE somebody made a mistake" is exactly what I want to change. People like ganking, not fighting, which is unbelievably boring. Why would someone care if they lost a fight if there were no killboards? That's the point here.

I get what you are saying. You however don't seem to get the idea of a game, really. You might have fun just slapping a bunch of cards on a table with a bunch of friends, without counting tricks or straits or points or whatever, and that is great. Some people also like to play makebelieve or do other things that don't come with a score system of some sort. Most people though would want to know after half an hour of Rummy whether they have won or not and by how much. And yes - that has a lot to do with stroking ones ego. The idea behind many games is that someone wins and someone loses, because since the dawn of mankind many people have liked to win and see others lose. That's just the kind of evil bastards most of us are. We aren't deeply spiritual monks who only live to find ourselves, steel our bodies and eventually achieve enlightenment for the most part.

Now, in a one vs. one situation, it's easy to tell. One ship goes pop, and it is clear who the winner is. But e-honourable one vs. one is not what Eve is about. If two, or even more fleets clash without a clear objective, ships explode on all sides, how do you tell who won in the end without any form of kill statistics? You may be content just flying your ship and doing your own thing, live in the moment, blow something up, get blown up by something, but most people wouldn't be satisfied with just that.

And even with killboards gone, the saying would still be true: A fair fight would still mean that somebody made a mistake in most cases. Only that it would be more difficult to not make a mistake, because information would be harder to come by. But in the end, people would still try to get an edge over their opponent before even going into a fight, killboards or no. Players would still try to make fights unfair, as long as the odds favour their own team, and ***** about fights being unfair if the odds are against them.

Fair fights in Eve could only be achieved by limiting possibilities and regulating fighting conditions. Just look how many rules it takes to make the Alliance tournament somewhat balanced. Personally, although I don't mind a fair fight would hate to see that happen.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#102 - 2016-12-01 21:14:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
Neuntausend wrote:
I get what you are saying. You however don't seem to get the idea of a game, really. You might have fun just slapping a bunch of cards on a table with a bunch of friends, without counting tricks or straits or points or whatever, and that is great. Some people also like to play makebelieve or do other things that don't come with a score system of some sort. Most people though would want to know after half an hour of Rummy whether they have won or not and by how much. And yes - that has a lot to do with stroking ones ego. The idea behind many games is that someone wins and someone loses, because since the dawn of mankind many people have liked to win and see others lose. That's just the kind of evil bastards most of us are. We aren't deeply spiritual monks who only live to find ourselves, steel our bodies and eventually achieve enlightenment for the most part.

Now, in a one vs. one situation, it's easy to tell. One ship goes pop, and it is clear who the winner is. But e-honourable one vs. one is not what Eve is about. If two, or even more fleets clash without a clear objective, ships explode on all sides, how do you tell who won in the end without any form of kill statistics? You may be content just flying your ship and doing your own thing, live in the moment, blow something up, get blown up by something, but most people wouldn't be satisfied with just that.

And even with killboards gone, the saying would still be true: A fair fight would still mean that somebody made a mistake in most cases. Only that it would be more difficult to not make a mistake, because information would be harder to come by. But in the end, people would still try to get an edge over their opponent before even going into a fight, killboards or no. Players would still try to make fights unfair, as long as the odds favour their own team, and ***** about fights being unfair if the odds are against them.

Fair fights in Eve could only be achieved by limiting possibilities and regulating fighting conditions. Just look how many rules it takes to make the Alliance tournament somewhat balanced. Personally, although I don't mind a fair fight would hate to see that happen.


No, I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it. Video games are just that, games. When I want to be serious and keep score I do it in real life, when I can earn real money for that. EVE is just a game. I understand 100% that many people are going to agree with that. I moved to WHs because people actually downship there to have decent fights, or wait 30 minutes for the people they are going to attack to get a good sized defending fleet together. People in EVE are entirely too soft any more, and only look for ganks, not fights.

But again, I might just be a bittervet at this point. Not everyone thinks like I do, so all I can give is my opinion. It's not better or worse than anyone else's.
Salvos Rhoska
#103 - 2016-12-01 21:19:10 UTC
Sonya Corvinus:

If you are operating in your own space, doing whatever you do, you may be attacked.
Is that a fair fight?
Same goes for you projecting into space you dont habitate, and attacking them doing their daily whatever.
Is that a fair fight?

I think you need to re-evaluate, think about and granulate what you think of as a "fight".
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2016-12-01 21:40:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Sonya Corvinus wrote:
No, I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree with it. Video games are just that, games. When I want to be serious and keep score I do it in real life, when I can earn real money for that.

It's pretty much the other way around for me. I don't think you can keep a score in life, and winning in life while making others lose is a dastardly, if sometimes necessary thing to do. A game however I play to win, because it's the only place where I can win against others without actually dealing any significant damage to them or their lives.

And seeing how most games, even the very simple ones have some sort of score, points, tricks, goals, leagues, leaderboards and what have you kind of makes me think that's what games are about. Admittedly, Eve is a rather unfair sort of game. It's not chess, where every player going into an encounter has exactly the same starting conditions (although even chess isn't 100% fair, because one of the players will have to go first). But, really, most games are unfair. All games involving dice or cards or any form of RNG are unfair. No matter how good you are at poker, you still need the cards to play along sometimes. In an MMOG, you may get lucky and get all the drops you need right away, and then smash a player who never finds anything to pieces. In XCOM the RNG may make one of your guys panic and wipe out half of your squad with an incendiary grenade.

Really, the problem is not that fights in Eve are unfair, but that people can see beforehand on a killboard whether a fight will be unfair and opt to not take it. I get that. As I said, though, removing killboards will not remedy that, and for reasons explained above may not be the greatest idea anyway. Change them, nerf them, make them give out less intel, if deemed necessary. But remove them? No.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#105 - 2016-12-01 22:06:42 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
It's pretty much the other way around for me. I don't think you can keep a score in life, and winning in life while making others lose is a dastardly, if sometimes necessary thing to do. A game however I play to win, because it's the only place where I can win against others without actually dealing any significant damage to them or their lives.

And seeing how most games, even the very simple ones have some sort of score, points, tricks, goals, leagues, leaderboards and what have you kind of makes me think that's what games are about. Admittedly, Eve is a rather unfair sort of game. It's not chess, where every player going into an encounter has exactly the same starting conditions (although even chess isn't 100% fair, because one of the players will have to go first). But, really, most games are unfair. All games involving dice or cards or any form of RNG are unfair. No matter how good you are at poker, you still need the cards to play along sometimes. In an MMOG, you may get lucky and get all the drops you need right away, and then smash a player who never finds anything to pieces. In XCOM the RNG may make one of your guys panic and wipe out half of your squad with an incendiary grenade.

Really, the problem is not that fights in Eve are unfair, but that people can see beforehand on a killboard whether a fight will be unfair and opt to not take it. I get that. As I said, though, removing killboards will not remedy that, and for reasons explained above may not be the greatest idea anyway. Change them, nerf them, make them give out less intel, if deemed necessary. But remove them? No.


We're probably going to agree to disagree on the first two paragraphs you just wrote, which is fine. I do keep score in real life, for whatever that says about me. I do have an ego IRL, games are a break from that to me. I'd be fine with a nerf to KBs instead of getting rid of them. I still fundamentally think a lot more people would get in fights if their losses weren't publicly displayed for all time. Show them for a few weeks for bragging rights is fine IMO.
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2016-12-01 22:19:50 UTC
Showing them for a couple of weeks, or even just for a few hours would be the best solution. But this cannot be enforced. Once the information is there, somebody will compile it and make it public. The game and the API may stop showing it, but the killboards will not.