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That is a legit question.
They used to explain their goals in devblogs, but apparently not anymore. I guess that is a reason for a larger part of frustration we see here.[/quote]

yes!
If the goal with the new structures is that only corporations that got people that work togheter should be able
to use them effectively then id say most of us would shut up and HTFU.
But CCP havent said anything about this.
So people are complaining about how this will mess them up.

I personaly remember reading that Medium structures where suposed to replace the old starbases, large would replace outposts and then the XL would be in a new leauge to any of the structures we have had.

And with the fuel costs and such it just seems very contradictory.
This is why there is a lot of frustration.
Again if CCP would explain whats happening id say most of our frustration would vanish.

CCP YOU BETTER NOT PULL A NO MANS SKY ON US! YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM!

This doesn't make sense. We know people will do industry under what some would consider to be "high" index values. We know this because high indices exist. Why would people not, then, happily perform that industry in an EC, with a bonus that would offset those index costs? Look at a system like Bahromab. Very popular manu system due to its positioning almost exactly between Amarr and Jita. This keeps logistics costs down, for the people who correctly incorporate those instead of just ignoring them because things-I-haul-myself-are-free! Lots of NPC stations there, too. If you're going to build there - and people ARE going to build there - would you rather do it in an unbonused NPC station, or in an EC with a material and time bonus?

Eve players have this way of taking the worst-case-scenario and then arguing as if that one possible outcome is the average, or even only possible outcome. It's utterly nonsensical.

"The owner could shut down the service just to troll!"

Well, yes, they could. And it's pretty much a guarantee that some will, at some point. It probably won't be a common experience, because it's rather.... Pyrrhic... trolling. This is absolutely a manageable risk.

"OMG it could get wardecced and blown up!"

Again, can happen, will happen. You can manage this risk. In most cases, for most jobs, it should be trivial to time your builds to avoid the vuln timer. You could also even - perish the thought - join the war as a defender and contribute to the survival of an EC you enjoy using. This is a manageable risk.

"Index costs will be too high!"

In the short term, I absolutely agree that ECs don't compare favorably, in high sec, to POS. Right now, a POS gets an adequate bonus which, along with their fixed and operating costs, and the ability to Dial-a-'Dex, is hugely advantageous, no doubt. In the long run, though, index costs will increase on average, and those increased costs will be incorporated into market pricing. It's not going to be that big of a deal. This might deter early adoption, but it doesn't represent a problem of any permanence.

You can't treat every individual concern as a deal breaker, when they're really just variables to be incorporated into your risk-benefit analysis.

At least with POS arrays the tax - if one is set - is paid to the corp owning the array, not NPCs. I think it's the same for outposts. I guess the new structures will work the same.

Absolutely wrong.
T1 ammo has fair profit margins.
P4 has fair margins AND decent volumes.
And there will be public ECs.

That's just off the top of my head. They can operate in mini-hubs too, where prices are higher but volumes are lower. Just like IRL, big fish takes over big markets, small business gets other niches (but nevertheless important).

Manufacturing taxes are NPC in an NPC station. At a POS, they're whatever the owner sets, and paid to the owner. Job cost charges are just system index + tax.

The actual TAX is applied to the index cost, and the index cost is a function of the index * the base item cost.

Let's say we're building caracals in Amarr.

Base item cost: 7,818,879
Index: 7.09%
NPC tax: 10%

Index cost: 7818879 * .0709 = 554358.5
Tax: 554358.5 * .1 = 55435.85
Total installation cost: 609,794
Material cost on an ME 10 print (industry window estimate, we're not building a church, here): 9,959,340
Material + installation costs: 10,569,134

Now suppose we threw up an EC with a T2 ME rig, here. How much could we tax to hit the same material + installation cost?

The index cost will be identical, that's based on the system index and base value - those remain unchanged.
Material cost, approximately: 9,959,340 * .964 = 9,600,803
Index cost: 554358.5
Index + Material = 10,155,162.26
Difference: 413,972
Tax ceiling: 413,972/554,358 = 75%.

Because the MATERIAL SAVING is applied to the total material cost, and the TAX is applied to the index, which itself is a fraction of the base cost, the tax charged in an EC could be a lot more than in an NPC station while still representing a net value to the consumer.

Manufacturing taxes are not NPC. They go to the facilily owner, just as with outposts.

The tax is a percentage of the Install cost, which is subject to the Index. The more the index spikes, the more revenue the taxes will generate as a percentage of that, exacerbating the cost to public users. This will lead to thinner margins for users. New jobs will migrate. Index and therefore effective taxes will drop, people will come back. Note this does not require the operator to manually adjust the tax rate at any point.

A cunning industrialist will spreadsheet his EC's public tax rate, such that it maintains an index that is profitable for him to produce his own wares while subsidizing the facility costs.

No hurries, we wait.

Why will you be unable to do it after? You can install an invention lab and a manufacturing plant in your Astrahus - presumably you have one already. It still has ample safety, and you will be able to carry on the activities, though at increased fuel costs.

Note that the hull itself bonuses production time - generally less relevant in WH space - and the effect of the rigs. You can still put, say, an M-set Advanced Medium Ship Manufacturing Material I rig on the astrahus for a 4% reduction in material cost, along with advanced component ME and invention cost or speed.

The fuel cost could get prohibitive, that will be an issue. Perhaps a system effect bonus is in order here. Something like reducing fuel consumption for industry services in wormholes by 50%. Similar to how the sov holder gets a fuel discount. Perhaps a scaling one would be in order, for different values based on the class of the wormhole. This would mitigate the fact you can't give access to third parties.

The big thing that is changing here is entry into a low class wormhole as a new entrepreneur. Currently low class holes have a massive home field advantage. It is relatively simple to build your own capitals in a tower, making you very hard to evict. Building them now will require an Azbel or Fortizar. This is a significantly higher setup cost. Though in mid and long term, presumably those who have them now will eventually lose them and require the same infrastructure to rebuild the asset.

CCP just one of many suggestions. These structures have more value for all corps. It would be good if the various sizes have similar production and defence capabilities as their POS counterparts. Also please revisit fuel consumption.

...although because they also removed POS anchoring restrictions and allowed infinite numbers of jobs to be run from any single facility it also encouraged and allowed people to concentrate. So even that plan and execution was somewhat contradictory.

It used to be that a person needed to have a lot of POS to do large scale industry and lots of people needing lots of POS meant industry naturally spread out without the need for tax/index incentives. Even those that used NPC stations had an incentive to spread out to get shorter queues and therefore more efficient use of their job allocation.

Those hard incentives were removed and soft incentives were added. But soft incentives do not force specific behavior like hard incentives. The willingness of many players to ignore inconvenient economic truths means that if an incentive is soft enough it can and will be ignored by large swathes of the playerbase.


It's sadly designed in such a way that it will appeal to sov holding entities, that are crying out for more reasons to bother holding space, but not to the kind of industrialist player who works solo or with a small group of friends. As usual, the smaller industrialist is given the scraps from the table because the feature is designed primarily around the needs of an entirely different playstyle.


It does certainly appear that the direction has changed repeatedly and the implementations and outcomes have not matched the marketed intentions.