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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

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Anthar Thebess
#461 - 2016-10-13 09:51:44 UTC
Kinizsi wrote:

One BIG QUESTION, what affects all:
DOES THE INDUSTRY JOBS PAUSE WHEN THE EC GET REINFORCED?
IF the answer is NO, there will be no reason to attack any M-L Engineering Complex, cause all industry jobs would finish way before the enemy can reinforce again, and finally kill the EC.


If they do, you can lock someone on all production slots for a whole week.
1. You wardec some higsec producing corporation.
2. Reinforce industry array
3. You put it into 2nd reinforcement - no one will be allow to help due to wardec mechanics.
4. You don't show up on final timer, as there are to many people involved. Cancel wardec.
5. Go back to point 1.

Defenders need to pay mercenaries, have job paused for a week. In 99% cases no one can help in 2nd reinforce timer as it is within 24h and contacting people / friends that can join wardec will take more than 24h due to wardec mechanic.

How this is different to current industrial towers?
1.You can remove tower before wardec start
2. Well fitted tower can be more effective than L citadel. More jams, neuts, and even DPS to subcapital targets.
Someone who fought under caldari tower full of jams will know how annoying this is. Citadels have just so few jamming slots. and anti subcapital missles can be migrated by pair of logistic ships.



Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Kinizsi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#462 - 2016-10-13 10:25:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinizsi
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Kinizsi wrote:

One BIG QUESTION, what affects all:
DOES THE INDUSTRY JOBS PAUSE WHEN THE EC GET REINFORCED?
IF the answer is NO, there will be no reason to attack any M-L Engineering Complex, cause all industry jobs would finish way before the enemy can reinforce again, and finally kill the EC.


If they do, you can lock someone on all production slots for a whole week.
1. You wardec some higsec producing corporation.
2. Reinforce industry array
3. You put it into 2nd reinforcement - no one will be allow to help due to wardec mechanics.
4. You don't show up on final timer, as there are to many people involved. Cancel wardec.
5. Go back to point 1.

Defenders need to pay mercenaries, have job paused for a week. In 99% cases no one can help in 2nd reinforce timer as it is within 24h and contacting people / friends that can join wardec will take more than 24h due to wardec mechanic.

How this is different to current industrial towers?
1.You can remove tower before wardec start
2. Well fitted tower can be more effective than L citadel. More jams, neuts, and even DPS to subcapital targets.
Someone who fought under caldari tower full of jams will know how annoying this is. Citadels have just so few jamming slots. and anti subcapital missles can be migrated by pair of logistic ships.





You should commit yourself, and risk something for the gains of an EC. Yes, they can lock your jobs, but hey, why do you put out an EC if you don't want to commit yourself in defending it? One man can guide it's guns, but if you want to manufacture with those nice bonuses, join a corp that can give you support in case of reinforce. If you are a one man corp, use NPC stations as before.

Too bad CCP would probably let the jobs run even if it's reinforced, cause they support only risk averse mechanics nowdays and don't care as much with content as with asset safety Sad
Chani El'zrya
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#463 - 2016-10-13 10:38:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Chani El'zrya
Urziel99 wrote:


Why do you need to build your own factory when you can't keep it producing to the capacity of a single character, let alone a single account? Why would you WANT to?
EDIT: If you want to do it just because, you can! And unlike your tower, you can easily rent it for use by others paying the fuel cost and more in taxes!


There are two reasons :

1) Access to T3 production
2) Access to low index manufactering system which has no NPC station.

But still i don't agree also with updating module for increased production capacity.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#464 - 2016-10-13 11:28:18 UTC
Urziel99 wrote:
The future of Industry for anyone not in a bog bloc is pretty obvious. NPC Stations.

Let me tell you a little secret: there are no big blocks other than in nullsec.
Most of the production is accomplished in hisec, and this is a fact supported by CCP stats.

So we have 3 options:
A. Nullsec industry will thrive, which is awesome.
B. People in hisec start to form big blocks, which is amazing.
C. You are wrong.

Chose one.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#465 - 2016-10-13 11:35:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
Chani El'zrya wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Why do you need to build your own factory when you can't keep it producing to the capacity of a single character, let alone a single account? Why would you WANT to?
EDIT: If you want to do it just because, you can! And unlike your tower, you can easily rent it for use by others paying the fuel cost and more in taxes!


There are two reasons :

1) Access to T3 production
2) Access to low index manufactering system which has no NPC station.

Wrong!
You dont need to build YOUR OWN factory!
It does not! HAVE! TO! BE! IN! YOUR! POSSESSION!

The mental inertia is so strong with some people, it seriously blows my mind.
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#466 - 2016-10-13 12:42:15 UTC
Kinizsi wrote:
DOES THE INDUSTRY JOBS PAUSE WHEN THE EC GET REINFORCED?


IF the answer is NO, there will be no reason to attack any M-L Engineering Complex, cause all industry jobs would finish way before the enemy can reinforce again, and finally kill the EC.

So there will be no industry job loot, no real motivation, and all stuff would be secured by asset safety mechanism. = NO CONTENT, no reason to kill those EC's.

Only XL EC can drop loot that way, from the super constructions, pretty much nothing else. This wouldn't be Good at all, so please CCP like it's with POS's PAUSE ALL manufacturing jobs, when the EC is reinforced.


Currently, structure services are offlined on the second reinforcement - this is ~24 hours after the first. So only jobs more than a day long (or installed after the first reinforcement) would be covered as loot drops.
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#467 - 2016-10-13 12:52:09 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Chani El'zrya wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Why do you need to build your own factory when you can't keep it producing to the capacity of a single character, let alone a single account? Why would you WANT to?
EDIT: If you want to do it just because, you can! And unlike your tower, you can easily rent it for use by others paying the fuel cost and more in taxes!


There are two reasons :

1) Access to T3 production
2) Access to low index manufactering system which has no NPC station.

Wrong!
You dont need to build YOUR OWN factory!
It does not! HAVE! TO! BE! IN! YOUR! POSSESSION!

The mental inertia is so strong with some people, it seriously blows my mind.


This is Eve. No one is to be trusted. That includes EC owners. Too easy to get locked out and have to shell out isk for asset safety and be deied access to assets for at least 5 days. Nevermind the fact that the cost index was designed to keep builders separated. You can thank CCP for the isolation of small industrialist with terrible game mechanics. These new EC are so granular an the bonuses so crap it's not worth the effort of hauling all over hell and half of Georgia to find a public EC with the right setup for every conceivable build job.

Once again. The NPC station remains the best choice to avoid all the headache and bad game design.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#468 - 2016-10-13 13:09:30 UTC
Kinizsi wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
With the huge expansion EVE: Ascension arriving on Nov 8, we will see the introduction of the eagerly awaited new Engineering Complexes.

We will get a new set of service modules that will expand research and manufacturing support to the entire line of Upwell structures. These service modules will be fully compatible with existing Citadel structures. Simultaneously, Upwell will be releasing a new set of Engineering Complex structures which are bonused for optimal performance with these service modules.

All details are now available in the new blog Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes



One BIG QUESTION, what affects all:

DOES THE INDUSTRY JOBS PAUSE WHEN THE EC GET REINFORCED?


IF the answer is NO, there will be no reason to attack any M-L Engineering Complex, cause all industry jobs would finish way before the enemy can reinforce again, and finally kill the EC.

So there will be no industry job loot, no real motivation, and all stuff would be secured by asset safety mechanism. = NO CONTENT, no reason to kill those EC's.

Only XL EC can drop loot that way, from the super constructions, pretty much nothing else. This wouldn't be Good at all, so please CCP like it's with POS's PAUSE ALL manufacturing jobs, when the EC is reinforced.


Far more likely that jobs will simply be cancelled before destruction to deny loot just like how people self-destruct ships in a POS bubble. Unless they disable job cancelling AND the job runs longer than the destruction period, you won't likely get much in the way of drops from blowing up these structures
Chani El'zrya
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#469 - 2016-10-13 13:14:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Chani El'zrya
Skia Aumer wrote:
Chani El'zrya wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Why do you need to build your own factory when you can't keep it producing to the capacity of a single character, let alone a single account? Why would you WANT to?
EDIT: If you want to do it just because, you can! And unlike your tower, you can easily rent it for use by others paying the fuel cost and more in taxes!


There are two reasons :

1) Access to T3 production
2) Access to low index manufactering system which has no NPC station.

Wrong!
You dont need to build YOUR OWN factory!
It does not! HAVE! TO! BE! IN! YOUR! POSSESSION!

The mental inertia is so strong with some people, it seriously blows my mind.


Take it easy man...

As already said many times on this thread, there are two options for entry level industrialist:
1) NPC station
2) Public ECs/Citadels

Both comes with serious disadvantages compared to current POS system in terms of profitability when operating in high sec space + the risk of wardec. Those are facts nothing to be discussed anymore (break even point is too high for casual indy...).
My personnal move will be to use NPC station in remote empty system and produce T3 in public ECs because margin are high enough to compensate for the large industry manufacturing index that will occur in those those system

The only question i have at the moment to CCP:
"Is it what was really intended for the future of this game?"

Cheers
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#470 - 2016-10-13 13:15:30 UTC
Urziel99 wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Chani El'zrya wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Why do you need to build your own factory when you can't keep it producing to the capacity of a single character, let alone a single account? Why would you WANT to?
EDIT: If you want to do it just because, you can! And unlike your tower, you can easily rent it for use by others paying the fuel cost and more in taxes!


There are two reasons :

1) Access to T3 production
2) Access to low index manufactering system which has no NPC station.

Wrong!
You dont need to build YOUR OWN factory!
It does not! HAVE! TO! BE! IN! YOUR! POSSESSION!

The mental inertia is so strong with some people, it seriously blows my mind.


This is Eve. No one is to be trusted. That includes EC owners. Too easy to get locked out and have to shell out isk for asset safety and be deied access to assets for at least 5 days. Nevermind the fact that the cost index was designed to keep builders separated. You can thank CCP for the isolation of small industrialist with terrible game mechanics. These new EC are so granular an the bonuses so crap it's not worth the effort of hauling all over hell and half of Georgia to find a public EC with the right setup for every conceivable build job.

Once again. The NPC station remains the best choice to avoid all the headache and bad game design.

The same exactly things were said when CCP introduced first citadels and increased market taxes.

"No one will use citadels because of risk, etc..."

Now look at Jita and surroundings: lots of fortizars with market orders. System does its job.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Chani El'zrya
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#471 - 2016-10-13 13:22:04 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Chani El'zrya wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Why do you need to build your own factory when you can't keep it producing to the capacity of a single character, let alone a single account? Why would you WANT to?
EDIT: If you want to do it just because, you can! And unlike your tower, you can easily rent it for use by others paying the fuel cost and more in taxes!


There are two reasons :

1) Access to T3 production
2) Access to low index manufactering system which has no NPC station.

Wrong!
You dont need to build YOUR OWN factory!
It does not! HAVE! TO! BE! IN! YOUR! POSSESSION!

The mental inertia is so strong with some people, it seriously blows my mind.


This is Eve. No one is to be trusted. That includes EC owners. Too easy to get locked out and have to shell out isk for asset safety and be deied access to assets for at least 5 days. Nevermind the fact that the cost index was designed to keep builders separated. You can thank CCP for the isolation of small industrialist with terrible game mechanics. These new EC are so granular an the bonuses so crap it's not worth the effort of hauling all over hell and half of Georgia to find a public EC with the right setup for every conceivable build job.

Once again. The NPC station remains the best choice to avoid all the headache and bad game design.

The same exactly things were said when CCP introduced first citadels and increased market taxes.

"No one will use citadels because of risk, etc..."

Now look at Jita and surroundings: lots of fortizars with market orders. System does its job.


Again, this has been said many times on this thread:
There is limited interests for indys to group up in the same system because of manufacturing index that will skyrocket.
I'm already setting my system alone around 2% although i'm a small indy guy.

So situation of ECs and citadels are not comparable (at least to me)
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#472 - 2016-10-13 13:44:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
Skia Aumer wrote:
You folks go round in circles.
- I want to build stuff!
- Here is your EC
- But 104 rigs too difficult!
- Buy XL
- But I'm poor!
- Use public
- But my freedom!
- Use stations
- Inefficient!
- POS is your choice then
- Outdated!
- Go buy items in the market and deal with it
- But I want to build stuff!

Not empty quoting.

Chani El'zrya wrote:
There is limited interests for indys to group up in the same system because of manufacturing index that will skyrocket.

If you index hurts your profit margins - go solo. If you're too poor for it - join the group. There is this choice, it's not obvious - thus, it's fun. How cannot you understand that?
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#473 - 2016-10-13 14:00:52 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Chani El'zrya wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Why do you need to build your own factory when you can't keep it producing to the capacity of a single character, let alone a single account? Why would you WANT to?
EDIT: If you want to do it just because, you can! And unlike your tower, you can easily rent it for use by others paying the fuel cost and more in taxes!


There are two reasons :

1) Access to T3 production
2) Access to low index manufactering system which has no NPC station.

Wrong!
You dont need to build YOUR OWN factory!
It does not! HAVE! TO! BE! IN! YOUR! POSSESSION!

The mental inertia is so strong with some people, it seriously blows my mind.


This is Eve. No one is to be trusted. That includes EC owners. Too easy to get locked out and have to shell out isk for asset safety and be deied access to assets for at least 5 days. Nevermind the fact that the cost index was designed to keep builders separated. You can thank CCP for the isolation of small industrialist with terrible game mechanics. These new EC are so granular an the bonuses so crap it's not worth the effort of hauling all over hell and half of Georgia to find a public EC with the right setup for every conceivable build job.

Once again. The NPC station remains the best choice to avoid all the headache and bad game design.

The same exactly things were said when CCP introduced first citadels and increased market taxes.

"No one will use citadels because of risk, etc..."

Now look at Jita and surroundings: lots of fortizars with market orders. System does its job.


Most of the orders in the citaels are plex that can be redeemed there and never needs to leave. The rest of the activity is offshoring. now imagine how much they would be used if the broker fee went up based on the amount of activity in the system. Then you might have a similar situation to evaluate. Till then, apples meet oranges.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#474 - 2016-10-13 14:03:14 UTC
Chani El'zrya wrote:
As already said many times on this thread, there are two options for entry level industrialist:
1) NPC station
2) Public ECs/Citadels

Both comes with serious disadvantages compared to current POS system in terms of profitability when operating in high sec space + the risk of wardec. Those are facts nothing to be discussed anymore (break even point is too high for casual indy...).

Let's put it another way. Right now, "casual indy" can use POS. What tools can use "hardcore indy", to have some advantage?
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#475 - 2016-10-13 14:05:26 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Chani El'zrya wrote:
As already said many times on this thread, there are two options for entry level industrialist:
1) NPC station
2) Public ECs/Citadels

Both comes with serious disadvantages compared to current POS system in terms of profitability when operating in high sec space + the risk of wardec. Those are facts nothing to be discussed anymore (break even point is too high for casual indy...).

Let's put it another way. Right now, "casual indy" can use POS. What tools can use "hardcore indy", to have some advantage?


Nullsec outposts. Lowsec Thukker Arrays. Thank you Comae Again.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#476 - 2016-10-13 14:10:57 UTC
Urziel99 wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
This is Eve. No one is to be trusted. That includes EC owners.

"No one will use citadels because of risk, etc..."
Now look at Jita and surroundings

Most of the orders in the citaels are plex that can be redeemed there and never needs to leave. The rest of the activity is offshoring. now imagine how much they would be used if the broker fee went up based on the amount of activity in the system. Then you might have a similar situation to evaluate. Till then, apples meet oranges.

Apples and oranges indeed.
You were talking about risk. Here is your example, we trade in citadels - no risk involved. (I, personally, trade in 3rd party citadel, and those are not PLEX, those are freighter-sized goods.)
Immediately, you jump to another topic. It doesnt work like that.

Do you admit you're over-reacting about risks in citadels/ECs ?
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#477 - 2016-10-13 14:11:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
Urziel99 wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Chani El'zrya wrote:
As already said many times on this thread, there are two options for entry level industrialist:
1) NPC station
2) Public ECs/Citadels

Both comes with serious disadvantages compared to current POS system in terms of profitability when operating in high sec space + the risk of wardec. Those are facts nothing to be discussed anymore (break even point is too high for casual indy...).

Let's put it another way. Right now, "casual indy" can use POS. What tools can use "hardcore indy", to have some advantage?


Nullsec outposts. Lowsec Thukker Arrays. Thank you Comae Again.

We are talking about hisec.
Because you folks have no idea how production in nullsec works and I have no intention to give you classes atm.
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#478 - 2016-10-13 14:23:00 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Chani El'zrya wrote:
As already said many times on this thread, there are two options for entry level industrialist:
1) NPC station
2) Public ECs/Citadels

Both comes with serious disadvantages compared to current POS system in terms of profitability when operating in high sec space + the risk of wardec. Those are facts nothing to be discussed anymore (break even point is too high for casual indy...).

Let's put it another way. Right now, "casual indy" can use POS. What tools can use "hardcore indy", to have some advantage?


Nullsec outposts. Lowsec Thukker Arrays. Thank you Comae Again.

We are talking about hisec.
Because you folks have no idea how production in nullsec works and I have no intention to give you classes atm.


Strong words, you don't know me very well, do you?
Chani El'zrya
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#479 - 2016-10-13 14:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Chani El'zrya
Skia Aumer wrote:
Chani El'zrya wrote:
As already said many times on this thread, there are two options for entry level industrialist:
1) NPC station
2) Public ECs/Citadels

Both comes with serious disadvantages compared to current POS system in terms of profitability when operating in high sec space + the risk of wardec. Those are facts nothing to be discussed anymore (break even point is too high for casual indy...).

Let's put it another way. Right now, "casual indy" can use POS. What tools can use "hardcore indy", to have some advantage?


I don't intend to become "hardcore". The casual version is fine (and time consuming enough vs irl)
Don't get met wrong i'm not complaining.
I have digested numbers and I'll use NPC station. I'm fine with that.
i will switch from a playstyle using structure (POS) to a playstyle without structure.
Profits will go lower, but i can undertand that groups should get an edge.

Before and even reading the patch notes i believed that the main goal was to have more players interacting with structures.
That won't be my case, since the new system is not designed for casual solo.
But does it matter?
I mean : I don't know how many % of the total item volume is produced by guys like me. No idea.

So I just wonder now was it the goal of CCP ?
Since Fozzie post, I'm awaiting a clear answer from their side.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#480 - 2016-10-13 15:08:35 UTC
Chani El'zrya wrote:
I don't intend to become "hardcore". The casual version is fine (and time consuming enough vs irl)
Don't get met wrong i'm not complaining.
I have digested numbers and I'll use NPC station. I'm fine with that.
Profits will go lower, but i can undertand that groups should get an edge.

Alright.

Chani El'zrya wrote:
So I just wonder now was it the goal of CCP ?

That is a legit question.
They used to explain their goals in devblogs, but apparently not anymore. I guess that is a reason for a larger part of frustration we see here.