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[November] Introducing the Porpoise

First post First post
Author
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#141 - 2016-10-11 00:44:15 UTC
Samsara Nolte wrote:
As was asked before -

Is the Porpoise able to fit gas harvester ? - it has 4 High Slots but it is nowhere to find if those highslot´s are turret slots.
This is a really important question, because wormholer usually are mining more gas than ore and if this ship has to be on grid to boost but can´t mine gas it is not totally usesless but it comes close.
pretty much the same argument regarding the Rorqual can be used here for gas mining ... it has to be worth it to place on grid.
Not done my math but if it can´t mine there probably have to be around 5+ ships able to gas harvest before it is rewarding to use this ship ... and since it will be a lot easier to catch than ventures and prospects there has to be a reason to do so.

Oh - and why aren´t there any drones to mine gas ?


Because CCP hates gas miners.

Please, CCP, 5 highs, 5 hardpoints, give us our mama huffer.



Gas harvesting drones would have to look very silly, like a huge balloon with thrusters... Actually, I'd love to see those.
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#142 - 2016-10-11 00:46:09 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Allan 'Gopher' Green wrote:
Fleet Hangar: 5000m3

I feel this is a bit small, as even the smallest barge hold can hold 12,000m3. it will be a continuous chore to keep moving ore out of the fleet hangar, with the fleet queuing up trying to dump their ore( only 2 barges will stress the 5,000 limit). I think 20,000m3 would be more suited, without over doing it ( still 50% of pre update Orca).

If you are running a significant number of barges the orca is actually the tool you want.
The Porpoise is more suited to working with a small fleet of ventures.


AND YET IT CAN'T HELP WITH GAS CLOUD HARVESTING!!!

[/rant] Okay, Scuzzy, okay, calm your ****, CCP is reasonable... sometimes...
Scuzzy Logic
Space Spuds
#143 - 2016-10-11 00:53:06 UTC
HandelsPharmi wrote:
Wow, this ship will replace the Mackinaw.
Bigger ore hangar, ice harvester drones... perfect


Nah, the Orca will replace the mack for this purpose. I can see the highsec belts now, looking like beehives. What?

However, this thing is likely going to completely ANNIHILATE the niche of the Endurance as the ice-WH ship.

I guess it's time I switched my Invention to the Prospect... Sad
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2016-10-11 01:20:31 UTC
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
The benefits of being in groups should always come from character trained skills and a fleet booster. That'd make it more intuitive, as it'd reflect real life to a large degree.

Industrial command ships hould never have been given bonuses to improve people's mining abilities. So what good are they then, you ask? They need, and often do have, other, unique bonuses that can improve the operation without being a drag.

In fact, isn't the one of the Orca's strong suits the tractor nonsense? The porpoise isn't needed. People need to start using the noctis to tractor jetcans of bunches of people in a belt into one spot for a hauler to have easy pickup. A lot of the things the orca can do can be filled by other things, like you buy a simple MTU and stick it somewhere on the hauler flight plan, and it does the can grabbing from those covetors or hulks, etc.

We don't need the porpoise, it doesn't have a purpose. People just need to stop being scared and go out there and mine with a fleet booster in regular ships. Either the orca or the pose will be redundant.
Noctis + Hauler = Porpoise. What you stated people should do is pretty much half of what it does. The other half being providing boosts. The Orca is a better version of that sure, but stating one will make the other redundant is like suggesting no one would fly a Thorax because they have the skills for a Deimos. Or for that matter Barge vs Exhumer. Barges get plenty of use despite being inferior Exhumers in part because of functional similarity alongside strong cost difference.



Now that I REALLY THINK about it, why are the Noctis bonuses not just slapped on the Porpoise and the two ships merged as one? Doesn't seem like it would be broken, IMHO, especially considering the poor Noctis is usually outperformed by the much cheaper destroyers.
Depends on what you mean by performance. I get more out of dropping MTU's in missions then mopping up with the noctis then I can with a salvage destroyer. Also 96km tractor beams and the salvage bonus just seems to work better for me. The ONLY issue with the ship is the cost created by making the ship itself a BC.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#145 - 2016-10-12 06:15:57 UTC
Scuzzy Logic wrote:
CCP hates both gas and wormholes. They forgot to add reactions to their new fancy research platform, or so it seems.

But yeah, GIVE THE GAS GUYS EQUAL TREATMENT, CCP!


Haven't CCP already said that there is another structure coming, which will do most of the stuff a POS can do that is not alreadt done by citadels or ECs?

Patience, padawan.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#146 - 2016-10-12 06:22:27 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
ok, I know my greivance isn't particularly relevant to this specific thread, BUT...

wtf do the mining bursts share the same duration as combat bursts? Mining fleets take up a MUCH longer amount of game play/time then combat does, even in blop fleets, mining burst duration should share a significantly longer duration per 'shot fired' to match!

At a measely 2 minutes of activation (assuming decent skill levels and such), when your mining fleet is banging rocks for 2 hours (and that's a SHORT mining fleet)....

Am I the only one here who feels that miners are getting shortchanged on this?!?


Especially given that one cycle of a combat weapon in at most 14 seconds while a boosted strip miner comes down as low as 96 seconds.
Meka Illat
Schwartz Corp.
#147 - 2016-10-12 06:37:58 UTC
when with the new super drones be on the test sever?
Ferigan
Damadil Innovation and Excavation Inc.
Deutsche Vertriebs und Mining Gesellschaft
#148 - 2016-10-12 08:00:56 UTC
I do like the stats, but I hate the visuals. I did not care much about the Noctis either, but hey, okay, it's a salvage ship aka a garbage can. Please give your newest ship a little love and a good design job.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#149 - 2016-10-12 08:23:46 UTC
Elithiel en Gravonere
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#150 - 2016-10-12 08:24:33 UTC
I'm liking the new ship, but I hear also what the others are saying regarding exploration types (who incidentally, also mine in wormholes). The mining in wormholes has always been problematic, this new ship, if it can fit a cloak, could in theory serve a purpose as an expedition frigate fleet support vessel (fleet booster).

Perhaps we could have a variant of it, for expedition frigates? That'd be just swell!
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#151 - 2016-10-12 08:29:55 UTC
hhhhhhhah you can't even give it ORE colors because that's taken by the Primae, which was handed out for free at one point as a subscription bonus

How excited do you really expect people to be over a Noctis SKIN. You couldn't help reusing a years-old hull for a new ship class? Come onnnn
Morgan Agrivar
Doomheim
#152 - 2016-10-12 09:18:56 UTC
When do I get to shoot at one? November 8th?

Gotta put that on a calendar...
HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
#153 - 2016-10-12 09:59:28 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
hhhhhhhah you can't even give it ORE colors because that's taken by the Primae, which was handed out for free at one point as a subscription bonus

How excited do you really expect people to be over a Noctis SKIN. You couldn't help reusing a years-old hull for a new ship class? Come onnnn



It is great for the scammers in Jita, who are offering a "cheap" Noctis or Porpois and selling you a Primea...
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#154 - 2016-10-12 10:16:03 UTC
HandelsPharmi wrote:


It is great for the scammers in Jita, who are offering a "cheap" Noctis or Porpois and selling you a Primea...

Except for the whole thing where markets & contracts show items by name, not by picture.....
Whelm
CRA Haven
#155 - 2016-10-12 15:25:54 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
hhhhhhhah you can't even give it ORE colors because that's taken by the Primae, which was handed out for free at one point as a subscription bonus

How excited do you really expect people to be over a Noctis SKIN. You couldn't help reusing a years-old hull for a new ship class? Come onnnn



Noticed both the Noctis and the Primae have a new skin listed. a while/pink combo
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#156 - 2016-10-12 17:13:45 UTC
I get that a T2 Noctis has some traits that are in-line with command industrials, like the tractor bonus. My issue is with the model being reused. Perhaps I should back up and explain my confusion.

"Porpoise" sounds like a sleek, quick ship. Being the smallest of the command industrials line, it would make sense that the Porpoise would look and act like a sleek ship. The Noctis is not a sleek or quick ship. It won't become the backbone of a new OP kiting doctrine, it's a ship for miners and they deserve this.

The Porpoise was announced but the design of it was a big mystery until now. The lack of information about its looks made me think it was something new, or else why not just say it would use the Noctis model? Were you holding off on bad news?

So yeah, I had some anticipation here, and I feel let down.

What I expect would happen is that a new ship model was created to replace the Noctis hull. This way you'd get a new ship like people expect would happen, and you can get rid of the choked chicken Noctis already. What more of an occasion would you be waiting for?

Somewhat more bothersome is the pace of new and updated ships. Is this too much to expect?
Cade Windstalker
#157 - 2016-10-12 23:37:50 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
I get that a T2 Noctis has some traits that are in-line with command industrials, like the tractor bonus. My issue is with the model being reused. Perhaps I should back up and explain my confusion.

"Porpoise" sounds like a sleek, quick ship. Being the smallest of the command industrials line, it would make sense that the Porpoise would look and act like a sleek ship. The Noctis is not a sleek or quick ship. It won't become the backbone of a new OP kiting doctrine, it's a ship for miners and they deserve this.

The Porpoise was announced but the design of it was a big mystery until now. The lack of information about its looks made me think it was something new, or else why not just say it would use the Noctis model? Were you holding off on bad news?

So yeah, I had some anticipation here, and I feel let down.

What I expect would happen is that a new ship model was created to replace the Noctis hull. This way you'd get a new ship like people expect would happen, and you can get rid of the choked chicken Noctis already. What more of an occasion would you be waiting for?

Somewhat more bothersome is the pace of new and updated ships. Is this too much to expect?


The Porpoise is actually a T1 hull, not T2, it just uses the same model as the Noctis.

I'd also like to point out that the Noctis model is actually original to the Primae special edition ship. It was used for the Noctis in response to the players going "WTF this thing looks awesome and you used it for this crappy thing!?!?"

As to expectations, and this is all based on personal experience with development and my own opinion, while I understand the desire for the Porpoise to have its own model (I was hoping for something similar myself) I'm not really surprised it doesn't have one. The art pipeline is probably the most heavily loaded thing at CCP right now. It's dealing with new structures, hull revamps both large and small, new and revamped effects, and a backlog of features that probably stretches to 2020 (anyone else remember CCP talking about all active modules having a presence on the hull?).

So yeah, not really surprised CCP didn't have room for a new hull. I hope they'll give us one eventually but in the meantime I think using the Noctis hull is fine.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#158 - 2016-10-13 00:14:18 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
I get that a T2 Noctis has some traits that are in-line with command industrials, like the tractor bonus. My issue is with the model being reused. Perhaps I should back up and explain my confusion.

"Porpoise" sounds like a sleek, quick ship. Being the smallest of the command industrials line, it would make sense that the Porpoise would look and act like a sleek ship. The Noctis is not a sleek or quick ship. It won't become the backbone of a new OP kiting doctrine, it's a ship for miners and they deserve this.

The Porpoise was announced but the design of it was a big mystery until now. The lack of information about its looks made me think it was something new, or else why not just say it would use the Noctis model? Were you holding off on bad news?

So yeah, I had some anticipation here, and I feel let down.

What I expect would happen is that a new ship model was created to replace the Noctis hull. This way you'd get a new ship like people expect would happen, and you can get rid of the choked chicken Noctis already. What more of an occasion would you be waiting for?

Somewhat more bothersome is the pace of new and updated ships. Is this too much to expect?


The Porpoise is actually a T1 hull, not T2, it just uses the same model as the Noctis.

I'd also like to point out that the Noctis model is actually original to the Primae special edition ship. It was used for the Noctis in response to the players going "WTF this thing looks awesome and you used it for this crappy thing!?!?"

As to expectations, and this is all based on personal experience with development and my own opinion, while I understand the desire for the Porpoise to have its own model (I was hoping for something similar myself) I'm not really surprised it doesn't have one. The art pipeline is probably the most heavily loaded thing at CCP right now. It's dealing with new structures, hull revamps both large and small, new and revamped effects, and a backlog of features that probably stretches to 2020 (anyone else remember CCP talking about all active modules having a presence on the hull?).

So yeah, not really surprised CCP didn't have room for a new hull. I hope they'll give us one eventually but in the meantime I think using the Noctis hull is fine.

So outsource it. You're not asking for a block of game programming, it's a model and textures. CCP hasn't had a problem with using firms like Massive Black for what seems like most of DUST's art direction.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#159 - 2016-10-13 00:17:56 UTC
Come to think of it, if they're doing the modelling internally that's probably a mistake. They have artists yes but to CCP their value is in their ability to integrate assets into the game.

if assets are built outside CCP already and this is the pace we get I don't know what to say.
Cade Windstalker
#160 - 2016-10-13 00:51:31 UTC
Outsourcing of art assets is a pretty big Catch-22, and it only really works (at least from what I've heard, so this is by no means definitive) if you're going to be working with the same people for a long time. This helps keep the style and direction consistent and cuts down on the need for pieces to be re-done or tweaked in-house to meet quality/reqs.

If you outsource things you're getting people who haven't worked with the rest of your team, may or may not be familiar with your IP, and likely don't have nearly the same kind of investment in the lore of the game or its current look.

Case and point, there was a recent piece on Star Citizen's ongoing development which went into a fair amount of detail on rumored issues they've had with how spread out development is and their early decision to do a lot of work through contractors. Based on what we've heard since (the single player delay), and my own experiences, everything in that story checks out as plausible.

Plus on top of that if CCP could afford to hire an entire contract team for art, and it's going to be a long term/open ended contract, then there's no reason not to just hire more artists. If it's short term then the incentive to outsource for art and go through the problems of integrating them and getting them spun up is a decent incentive against bothering.

Personally the only time I think outsourcing like you're talking about makes sense is when you have a decent sized medium-term need but know demand is going to drop off heavily after a fixed period, OR you've made a decision to go with contract entirely for art and very little in-house and the relationship with the contractor is going to be for the life of the project.