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[November] Introducing the Porpoise

First post First post
Author
Goati
Doomheim
#101 - 2016-10-06 18:26:00 UTC
StaticViolence wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
PORPOISE
Industrial Command Ships bonuses (per skill level):


Shouldn't it use the ORE Industrial skill instead of Industrial Command Ship? Seems like it should have a similar skill requirement to the noctis (since they're the same hull), not the orca (since its the next tier of ship hull in the line).


It's an industrial command ship, so why?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2016-10-06 18:52:33 UTC
Marox Calendale wrote:
Joten Koldani wrote:
But can it mine gas?

That is the great question. With its ability to jump threw small size wormholes it would be perfect for gas harvesting fleets. But with only 4 High Slots it would harvest less gas in any configuration than a Gnosis.

An additional Role Bonus like Venture and Prospect have would be perfect though.
The answer is no.
Penance Toralen
Compass Fox
#103 - 2016-10-06 21:54:04 UTC
CCP Fozzie,

Will the Medium Micro Jump Drive be able to be fit a on Porpoise?
Jahnto
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2016-10-07 01:06:49 UTC
I would like clarification on the boost duration for this.

The ship skill gives 2% duration bonus and the mining foreman skill gives 10%... so I could end up with a +60% or so duration to my mining boost, on a module that cycles every minute.

So my reward for training the skill is that I can burn more charges than needed auto-firing it, or save a little isk & manually click a button every minute 30 or so. That does not feel like a reward for skill investment. If it's going to remain this way please add an adjustment to the burst module so I can increase my cycles time if desired so that it matches my skill.

Also gas mining drones or a bonused turret are a great idea
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#105 - 2016-10-07 02:34:51 UTC
Jahnto wrote:
I would like clarification on the boost duration for this.

The ship skill gives 2% duration bonus and the mining foreman skill gives 10%... so I could end up with a +60% or so duration to my mining boost, on a module that cycles every minute.

So my reward for training the skill is that I can burn more charges than needed auto-firing it, or save a little isk & manually click a button every minute 30 or so. That does not feel like a reward for skill investment. If it's going to remain this way please add an adjustment to the burst module so I can increase my cycles time if desired so that it matches my skill.

Also gas mining drones or a bonused turret are a great idea


Pretty sure that it means a longer boost duration but that the module will still fire at the same rate.

IE, standard is 1minute cycle and 1 minute duration , with skills you might have a 1:30 duration but the same fire rate. For combat ships that means you can head in and out of booster range without a huge penalty, mining ships you might have more time to drop ore off at a station ect.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2016-10-07 04:38:22 UTC
CCP needs to stop trying to make things work by Power Creeping new ships into the game and start making jobs and companies and corporations for all things from industry to mining work like they do for PvP.

In PvP, you must have a second person to double your capability. Who knows, your effective capability might be even more than double because of the tangible multiplication of being able to have one person with scram while you're full ganking mods like damage and support (painters, etc).

There are many tangible benefits to mining in corps or groups already, for the ability to be in a large wolf pack with protective drones in lowsec to get that ice, or to be able to hang out ina 0.5 with everyone except one guy fitted for pure mining. Mining drones, mining lasers, mining drone upgrades, the works, all set up in ventures or covetors, while one guy in a procurer, probably fleet booster with the leadership SKILLS, provides even more mining bonuses on top, can mine himself instead of doing nothing but wait with his eyes glazed over like a pair of donuts waiting for gankers or rats to go attack, and so on.

This single procurer with its drones can protect anyone in the mining fleet from rats in 0.5 space while some hauler grabs the goods in some bestower or something and drops it off at the station and so on.

Im just saying what tangible benefits already exist from one angle for people to go into corps. There should be other benefits in industry and so on just like mining and PvP, where more means better efficiencty and thus better reward.

I think most people are starry eyed over the notion of going it alone and thumbing their nose at corps.

Its on both sides a mentality problem of players and a problem CCP has with trying to add more FLOWN OBJECTS to make mining as a corp more enticing, rather than making mining more enticing as a corp purely through game mechanics.

For instance, what if instead of the ore being automatically picked up, it is pulled onto the surface of a roid to get scooped, and the mining lasers simply cut it out for it to be ready. What if those mining lasers work better when they are supplemented by others? Say you have two strip miners hitting the same rock, or two mining laers, etc. Both lasers' yields improve by 20%, creating a multiplicative effect that actually encourages corporation work.

Sure, that idea is kinda weird and crappy, but it is the baseline of what ideas really aught to be with respect to corporations, and mining in particular.

CCP wants to change mining for what reason? Are people complaining its worthless to corp right now? Its not. Are people complaining their ISK/work rate is too awful? Refuse to sell unless prices are better.


Look, in real life, corporations work because they can afford to pay people a fraction of the total value of the product, because people have to eat. There's a buyer's market for corps as they related to hirees. There's always more people alive than jobs available, so there's alwasy going to be homeless or jobless.

In such a real lief scenario, people will go work in The Jungle for 5 cents and a chance of losing a finger, because there's immediate incentives to go to work even for such awful pay: hunger. You can't exist in the real world if you don't join a "corp of the real world", so that's how corporations can afford to be in business, by paying its workers a low wage.

The other aspect is what we call "corporation assets". Mining barges should be seen as them, but due to the nature of eve, how any player can own their own such assets, and how it only takes one player for these assets to work, then anyone can thumb their nose at corporations as an attitude again saying "why should I be part of your corp when I can own my own industry"?

Again, we need ways in which collectives are better than singles. Eve per the mining aspect would be like some person with their brain hooked up to automated processes that dig up the ore, drive the trucks to haul it around, sort it, etc etc, all with a single person's brain power. You definitely don't need to hire mine workers IRL if that were the case, and everyone could own their own mine because it'd be "easy", or again, "why should I work for you when I can keep all the profits myself"./

In Eve, there's no Hunger Incentive to work, or to get yourself into a corporation. It has to therefore be ALLURING.

There has to be an opporunity cost to NOT joining a corporation, and adding more bling ships with better "powers" is not going to solve that, as it hasn't already with orcas.

They want to go down to even smaller "corporation" ships now with that porpoise, but really, the need to start working on ideas how to make things multiplacatively better simply by virtue of other players grouping together, like how PvP works. There's no bonuses one player applies to another with a ship in PvP unless its a command ship with links, but even so, 2 or 3 people in a small gang is better than 1 .

CCP should just introduce a multi-player platform for mining so that people have to dock up with it or actually put their pod in it and control their own grid of mining lasers, while the owner of the ship flies it and has their own lasers to use, or something.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2016-10-07 04:40:24 UTC
Andrew Indy wrote:
Jahnto wrote:
I would like clarification on the boost duration for this.

The ship skill gives 2% duration bonus and the mining foreman skill gives 10%... so I could end up with a +60% or so duration to my mining boost, on a module that cycles every minute.

So my reward for training the skill is that I can burn more charges than needed auto-firing it, or save a little isk & manually click a button every minute 30 or so. That does not feel like a reward for skill investment. If it's going to remain this way please add an adjustment to the burst module so I can increase my cycles time if desired so that it matches my skill.

Also gas mining drones or a bonused turret are a great idea


Pretty sure that it means a longer boost duration but that the module will still fire at the same rate.

IE, standard is 1minute cycle and 1 minute duration , with skills you might have a 1:30 duration but the same fire rate. For combat ships that means you can head in and out of booster range without a huge penalty, mining ships you might have more time to drop ore off at a station ect.


No. Just No.

If your mining ship are modded and rig specced for speed to drop off, you're doing it wrong. If they're not, and you're sending them back to station instead of jetcanning with covetors to take maximum advantage of their speed mining, so they can stay in the belt mining as long as possible while someone ELSE with bad skills but an industrial hauls the ore back, then you're STILL doing it wrong.


Even ventures do best when they can jetcan mine because you're talking about 2 or 3 minutes not working those lasers.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#108 - 2016-10-07 04:43:12 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Goati wrote:
StaticViolence wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
PORPOISE
Industrial Command Ships bonuses (per skill level):


Shouldn't it use the ORE Industrial skill instead of Industrial Command Ship? Seems like it should have a similar skill requirement to the noctis (since they're the same hull), not the orca (since its the next tier of ship hull in the line).


It's an industrial command ship, so why?


Correction, it is a mining command ship.

What other Industry are you planning to use this for?

Given the nomenclature, an industrial command ship would be some sort of ship that provides passive resists and speed boosts to other INDUSTRIAL SHIPS, AKA HAULERS, with the probable caveat that the ship bonuses have a cooldown if you decide to use cyno jumps

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2016-10-07 04:50:17 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Pelea Ming wrote:
ok, I know my greivance isn't particularly relevant to this specific thread, BUT...

wtf do the mining bursts share the same duration as combat bursts? Mining fleets take up a MUCH longer amount of game play/time then combat does, even in blop fleets, mining burst duration should share a significantly longer duration per 'shot fired' to match!

At a measely 2 minutes of activation (assuming decent skill levels and such), when your mining fleet is banging rocks for 2 hours (and that's a SHORT mining fleet)....

Am I the only one here who feels that miners are getting shortchanged on this?!?


I didnt even know about these burst things, this is getting really dumb. talk about a game being watered down with generic MMO or even single player game concepts. These changes are reminding me to not resub.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Marox Calendale
Keep-At-Range
Evictus.
#110 - 2016-10-07 08:38:39 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Check out the specific feedback threads for the Porpoise, Orca, and Rorqual. This thread will be the general purpose feedback thread for everything that doesn't fit into the others.

Thanks in advance for all your constructive feedback!

:Edit:
A couple quick answers to questions we see coming up multiple times:

  • We're not planning on changing the restrictions on what ships are allowed into the Rorq SMB at this time. The concern with removing the restrictions is that it would become too powerful combined with the increased jump range.
  • The mining foreman ships won't have any ability to mine gas or mercoxit at this time. You'll want to use other ships for mining those substances.

I am ok with that for orca and rorqual, but you really should think about any possibility for the porpoise to harvest gas. If not, you won´t see this ship used very often. In HS the Orca will still dominate the mining fleets and everywhere else it will be the rorqual. The porpoise then will not be more than a training ship for mining noobs. Most of them will probably skill directly to orca and get one from their corp.
But with the ability of huffing gas, this ship would be really ideal to boost gas harvesting fleets in any kind of space. Have a look at the venture before prospect was released. How long did young miners use it until they switched to any barge? And how often was it used in any kind of dangerous space to harvest gas?
The porpoise is being made to support gas harvesting fleets. You know it! But without the ability to harvest gas by itself, Gnosis will still be the first choice for that role.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#111 - 2016-10-07 14:37:18 UTC
Penance Toralen wrote:
CCP Fozzie,

Will the Medium Micro Jump Drive be able to be fit a on Porpoise?


This is an excellent question.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2016-10-07 18:20:00 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
I didnt even know about these burst things, this is getting really dumb. talk about a game being watered down with generic MMO or even single player game concepts. These changes are reminding me to not resub.
I think we've taken the word generic to a point where it lacks any usable meaning. If you have a legit gripe I'd suggest not using it since it's neither descriptive nor useful on it's own.

It's even worse when combined with other broad generalities (or do you actually mean to liken multiplayer boosting on a more interactive level to a "generic" or "single player" concept?).
Earthling Hibou
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2016-10-07 22:16:41 UTC
Love this new ship and how it fits in with the new mechanics!

Orca has dominated this role because it was the ONLY sensible option. I would argue "this role" has suffered as a result and so we'll only see how it really plays out once the options are out there. It's like if Exhumers existed but not Barges, then Barges were added. Everyone would point out how only a fool would give up the yield and other bonuses, but in reality there are LOTS of reasons to use barges even once you've trained exhumers.

With the new bonuses-only-in-belt system using an Orca will suddenly be a MUCH riskier affair. Sure rich corps in safe spots will be fine to use them, but many players corps will probably find that offering a few Porpoises for corp use is a much lower risk than Orcas and gives a large chunk of the bonuses. For people in unsafe spots this is even more true, and Orca will probably be reserved for larger ops where the bonuses will be multiplied by more barges/exhumers.

Love that it's both a booster AND a mining ship, with the same praise extended to Orca/Rorqal. In all cases this is 1000% more appealing to me as a newbie miner than the old system, where I would be training towards a situation where I NO LONGER DO THE THING I LIKE, WHICH IS MINING. I was planning to quit EVE because of this (other careers don't excite me personally), but these updates make me want to keep playing and work towards mining FC role :D

TL;DR: New system promoting active mining is AWESOME, Porpoise is a great runway for new players into mining FC and this almost-quitter is pumped for the non-multiboxing-mandatory future of mining :)
Darryn Lowe
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#114 - 2016-10-08 00:02:04 UTC
Can the Porpoise be used on the free accounts?

Due to being made redundant and having to take a lower paid job I'm not in a position to spend money on Eve for two players but if the Porpoise can be flown under the free account then it makes sense for it to exist. You can run a mining op on free accounts and still make some nice ISK for a low level op.
Daniel Jackson
Universal Exos
#115 - 2016-10-08 00:10:10 UTC
wish they made a new design for it, it looks like the noctis before they recolored it
Earthling Hibou
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2016-10-08 00:12:08 UTC
Darryn Lowe wrote:
Can the Porpoise be used on the free accounts?.


No. Several important skills are unavailable to alphas, who can't even use barges.
Darryn Lowe
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2016-10-08 00:35:29 UTC
Earthling Hibou wrote:
Darryn Lowe wrote:
Can the Porpoise be used on the free accounts?.


No. Several important skills are unavailable to alphas, who can't even use barges.

Stink. Oh well I guess the character I need to pay for is my Orca pilot.
Zurdook
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#118 - 2016-10-08 02:10:27 UTC
Ore Hold: 50,000m3 is only useful if u dig alone, TRIPLE IT
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2016-10-08 02:50:59 UTC
Zurdook wrote:
Ore Hold: 50,000m3 is only useful if u dig alone, TRIPLE IT

Buy an Orca.
Vivianne Athonille
WHolely Unacceptable
#120 - 2016-10-08 04:36:31 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Penance Toralen wrote:
CCP Fozzie,

Will the Medium Micro Jump Drive be able to be fit a on Porpoise?


This is an excellent question.


It is indeed an excellent question. Once upon a time I even flew an Eos to provide mining boosts while having tank and drone damage, and the MMJD was a great tool to have on hand. Among other things, it made crossing to the far side of a belt trivial. Have the barges warp off, jump the Eos 100km, warp the barges back to the Eos.