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why does it seem like CCP is castrating high sec content creators

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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#921 - 2016-10-10 00:38:53 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

That you can't get past your own bias isn't a fault of the data. That's your own narrow mindedness.

Just read your own quote to yourself.

Ok.

That you can't get past your own bias isn't a fault if the data. That's your own narrow mindedness.

Yep, still seems correct.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#922 - 2016-10-10 00:43:44 UTC
Marcus Binchiette wrote:

To put it bluntly, you are a bastard.

Chill out mate, it's a game.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#923 - 2016-10-10 00:45:11 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

That you can't get past your own bias isn't a fault of the data. That's your own narrow mindedness.

Just read your own quote to yourself.

Ok.

That you can't get past your own bias isn't a fault if the data. That's your own narrow mindedness.

Yep, still seems correct.

Ok so the data shows that there is a lot less mining in hi-sec and more in Null.

Mineral prices have doubled in the last 5 years even though there has been a 30% increase in the refine rates.

Ganking is so unbalanced you can use ships valued at 1/100 the value of the target and wardecs are designed to make it cheap to pick on the little corps. So industrialists and PvE players take all the risks.

And CCP is going out of its way to make things better for all miners.

But according to you carebears bring nothing to the game and the data does not support the fact that PvErs left the game especially in hi-sec.

And you think I have a bias?

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Marcus Binchiette
Federal Vanguard
#924 - 2016-10-10 00:53:31 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
You're on about carebears being the salt of the earth that holds the game together and woah betide CCP that they have left. Carebears bring nothing good to the game..


I'd challenge this statement. Meaningful, positive, and mutually beneficial social relationships are the key to success in this game. EVE is a lonely place, and many of the mechanics such as fleet boosting, corporations, and shared assets give rise to the group over the individual.

The key of course to leveraging this is trust - and if you start scamming, griefing, and ganking, then you are cashing in that trust for something which is immediate and short term. Just look at the level of coordinating and teamwork which goes into executing a gank. Now consider that it is those people whom you are ganking which will never join your corporation. They will not do so because they do not trust you.

Who do they trust? They trust the mentor. The so called "care-bear" who took them under their wing.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#925 - 2016-10-10 00:56:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Mark Marconi wrote:

Ok so the data shows that there is a lot less mining in hi-sec and more in Null.

No it doesn't.

Put the actual numbers down, accounting for the mineral rebalance.

I'll do it again when I get home and post it, but since it is something anyone can do and verify for themselves, go ahead and do it.

Quote:
Ganking is so unbalanced you can use ships valued at 1/100 the value of the target and wardecs are designed to make it cheap to pick on the little corps. So industrialists and PvE players take all the risks.

Again, bullshit.

They take no more risks than anyone. Lowsec PvPers take risks, nullsec PVEers and PvPers take risks. Market traders take risks. Everyone takes risks. There no exclusive market for industrialists, many of whom minimise risk just fine.

As for ISK balancing, it doesn't work. There are ISK differences all across the game in terms of what can kill what. ISK tank isn't a balancing factor and it shouldn't be.

Quote:
And CCP is going out of its way to make things better for all miners.

But according to you carebears bring nothing to the game and the data does not support the fact that PvErs left the game especially in hi-sec.

And you think I have a bias?

Carebears bring nothing of value to the game. I didn't say they bring nothing at all to the game. They bring whinging and whining and lots of tears over the way others play the game, instead of focussing on how they play themselves. It's always someone else's fault with Carebears.

They could all disappear and everyone else, PVEers and PvPers would continue on merrily as always.

Yeah you do have a bias. You fail to acknowledge the data as a result of it.

I have a prejudice. More than s bias really, but nothing to do with the data. I'm happy to accept the truth of any data used properly and understand correctly.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#926 - 2016-10-10 01:35:24 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:

Ok so the data shows that there is a lot less mining in hi-sec and more in Null.

No it doesn't.

Put the actual numbers down, accounting for the mineral rebalance.

I'll do it again when I get home and post it, but since it is something anyone can do and verify for themselves, go ahead and do it.

Except for you know, the direct quotes CCP have made that have shown that mining is moving to Null. With Null & High balanced at the last time they put percentages out and movement in favour of Null in the economic reports since then.
Or the steady visible creep of more mining in Null less in High that has been going on for the last year.
Or the fact that because of the refining changes anyone trying to refine ore in highsec loses Isk relative to just selling said ore.

But no, continue to pretend that there isn't more mining in Null going on, please.

Also get off the 'carebear' rant. It's just a label pushed by certain groups to degrade, dehumanise and belittle people they don't like. All groups whinge & whine over something at some stage. Some of the biggest whinging I've ever seen in EVE comes from the PvP groups when something doesn't go their way.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#927 - 2016-10-10 01:35:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Marconi
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:

Ok so the data shows that there is a lot less mining in hi-sec and more in Null.

No it doesn't.

Put the actual numbers down, accounting for the mineral rebalance.

I'll do it again when I get home and post it, but since it is something anyone can do and verify for themselves, go ahead and do it.

Quote:
Ganking is so unbalanced you can use ships valued at 1/100 the value of the target and wardecs are designed to make it cheap to pick on the little corps. So industrialists and PvE players take all the risks.

Again, bullshit.

They take no more risks than anyone. Lowsec PvPers take risks, nullsec PVEers and PvPers take risks. Market traders take risks. Everyone takes risks. There no exclusive market for industrialists, many of whom minimise risk just fine.

As for ISK balancing, it doesn't work. There are ISK differences all across the game in terms of what can kill what. ISK tank isn't a balancing factor and it shouldn't be.

Quote:
And CCP is going out of its way to make things better for all miners.

But according to you carebears bring nothing to the game and the data does not support the fact that PvErs left the game especially in hi-sec.

And you think I have a bias?

Carebears bring nothing of value to the game. I didn't say they bring nothing at all to the game. They bring whinging and whining and lots of tears over the way others play the game, instead of focussing on how they play themselves. It's always someone else's fault with Carebears.

They could all disappear and everyone else, PVEers and PvPers would continue on merrily as always.

Yeah you do have a bias. You fail to acknowledge the data as a result of it.

I have a prejudice. More than s bias really, but nothing to do with the data. I'm happy to accept the truth of any data used properly and understand correctly.

So to sum it up even though the figures clearly show a drop in hi-sec mining it does not matter to you.

If CCP did a graph that clearly showed that hi-sec PvE players left, you would ignore it.

The concepts of actually having to lose real money to take a risk for ganking you dont like and would probably think were unfair to you.

Subsequently you will deny anything that would mean the carebears you seem to hate, might actually want to get a more balanced risk vs reward, even if it means that the game might actually have a future, rather than a long drawn out death.

And this is exactly what has been killing EvE slowly for years. Not that this is a PvP game but that it might become a fair PvP game and pvp players (read as gankers) don't like that.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Atomic Virulent
Embargo.
#928 - 2016-10-10 01:49:07 UTC
It's hard to castrate something that had no real balls in the first place.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#929 - 2016-10-10 02:06:59 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
So to sum it up even though the figures clearly show a drop in hi-sec mining it does not matter to you.

No, not at all. Incorrect, wrong and not a reflection of reality.

Consistent with what I've come to expect from your thought process though.

Quote:
If CCP did a graph that clearly showed that hi-sec PvE players left, you would ignore it.

No, of course not. No such graph exists though and as I've maintained consistently, there is nothing special about highsec, compared to other areas of space. Numbers are down everywhere. Highsec special snowflakes aren't special at all.

Quote:
The concepts of actually having to lose real money to take a risk for ganking you dont like and would probably think were unfair to you.

What? Unfair to me how?

I haul every single day through highsec. While my activity is down compared to previous years, I make at least 20 trips through Uedama/Niarja/Madirmilire each week in a freighter/Jump Freighter.

But how is any of that relevant. No one loses real money. It's a game, not real life. ISK isn't worth anything at all out of game.

Quote:
Subsequently you will deny anything that would mean the carebears you seem to hate, might actually want to get a more balanced risk vs reward, even if it means that the game might actually have a future, rather than a long drawn out death.

And this is exactly what has been killing EvE slowly for years. Not that this is a PvP game but that it might become a fair PvP game and pvp players (read as gankers) don't like that.

Carebears don't want balance. They want complete, 100% safety with no possibility of being attacked. So yeah, **** that.

The game is 13 1/2 years old and did well when it was much less safe than it is now. Fallacy away though.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#930 - 2016-10-10 02:25:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Marconi
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:


Carebears don't want balance. They want complete, 100% safety with no possibility of being attacked. So yeah, **** that.

The game is 13 1/2 years old and did well when it was much less safe than it is now. Fallacy away though.

No gankers dont want balance.

Risk vs reward, it means you take a risk and you get a possible reward. Yet if they actually upgraded the ehp on freighters and exhumers to match their price tag and possible reward then the gankers would be whining and rage quitting.

It is not the PvErs who want everything. It is the PvPers, fortunately the reality that CCP is a business is actually starting to dawn on CCP and the place is starting to get a bit fairer.

Oh as for being more dangerous in the past here is a hi-sec kill mail from a freighter in 2010
https://eve-kill.net/index.php?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7136995
(frigate, 3 battle cruisers and a battleship)
vs a freighter now
http://www.eve-kill.net/:3?a=kill_detail&kll_id=524627 (10 Catalysts)
Difference in 2010 that took naerly 20 minutes, 2016 its over in half the time.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#931 - 2016-10-10 02:36:32 UTC
The reason hisec exists is because players were being griefed out of the game. Fallacy away though.

CODE. are quite happily "creating content" (aka interacting with orcas and exhumers operated by players who are AFK) in Nakugard's belts, just like the good old days (though I am remembering the days when suicide gankers didn't role play this zealotry around James315 saviour of hisec, bit it does add a bit of RP flavour). Why people insist on triple-cargo-rig fits for orcas, I do not know. A Miasmos in the ship bay is cheaper.

One of my corp mates recently survived a suicide gank against her Noctis, thankfully they made a simple error and the generated content ended up in her cargo hold, not theirs!

I certainly don't see any sign of content creation being castrated.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#932 - 2016-10-10 02:43:46 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
The reason hisec exists is because players were being griefed out of the game. Fallacy away though.

Highsec existed even by the Castor release. It's been in the game since 2003. You might need to reframe that claim.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#933 - 2016-10-10 02:45:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Mark Marconi wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:


Carebears don't want balance. They want complete, 100% safety with no possibility of being attacked. So yeah, **** that.

The game is 13 1/2 years old and did well when it was much less safe than it is now. Fallacy away though.

No gankers dont want balance.

Risk vs reward, it means you take a risk and you get a possible reward. Yet if they actually upgraded the ehp on freighters and exhumers to match their price tag and possible reward then the gankers would be whining and rage quitting.

It is not the PvErs who want everything. It is the PvPers, fortunately the reality that CCP is a business is actually starting to dawn on CCP and the place is starting to get a bit fairer.

Oh as for being more dangerous in the past here is a hi-sec kill mail from a freighter in 2010
https://eve-kill.net/index.php?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7136995
(frigate, 3 battle cruisers and a battleship)
vs a freighter now
http://www.eve-kill.net/:3?a=kill_detail&kll_id=524627 (10 Catalysts)
Difference in 2010 that took naerly 20 minutes, 2016 its over in half the time.

Wow. One killmail from two different periods with some unverifiable claims attached. Very convincing.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#934 - 2016-10-10 02:55:19 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:


Carebears don't want balance. They want complete, 100% safety with no possibility of being attacked. So yeah, **** that.

The game is 13 1/2 years old and did well when it was much less safe than it is now. Fallacy away though.

No gankers dont want balance.

Risk vs reward, it means you take a risk and you get a possible reward. Yet if they actually upgraded the ehp on freighters and exhumers to match their price tag and possible reward then the gankers would be whining and rage quitting.

It is not the PvErs who want everything. It is the PvPers, fortunately the reality that CCP is a business is actually starting to dawn on CCP and the place is starting to get a bit fairer.

Oh as for being more dangerous in the past here is a hi-sec kill mail from a freighter in 2010
https://eve-kill.net/index.php?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7136995
(frigate, 3 battle cruisers and a battleship)
vs a freighter now
http://www.eve-kill.net/:3?a=kill_detail&kll_id=524627 (10 Catalysts)
Difference in 2010 that took naerly 20 minutes, 2016 its over in half the time.

Wow. One killmail from two different periods with some unverifiable claims attached. Very convincing.

Have a look at any of the kill mails from then and compare them to now, it is a lot easier and subsequently a lot more dangerous for PvE players.

but as usual show you evidence and you ignore it. Just because you hate carebears.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#935 - 2016-10-10 02:57:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Mark Marconi wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:


Carebears don't want balance. They want complete, 100% safety with no possibility of being attacked. So yeah, **** that.

The game is 13 1/2 years old and did well when it was much less safe than it is now. Fallacy away though.

No gankers dont want balance.

Risk vs reward, it means you take a risk and you get a possible reward. Yet if they actually upgraded the ehp on freighters and exhumers to match their price tag and possible reward then the gankers would be whining and rage quitting.

It is not the PvErs who want everything. It is the PvPers, fortunately the reality that CCP is a business is actually starting to dawn on CCP and the place is starting to get a bit fairer.

Oh as for being more dangerous in the past here is a hi-sec kill mail from a freighter in 2010
https://eve-kill.net/index.php?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7136995
(frigate, 3 battle cruisers and a battleship)
vs a freighter now
http://www.eve-kill.net/:3?a=kill_detail&kll_id=524627 (10 Catalysts)
Difference in 2010 that took naerly 20 minutes, 2016 its over in half the time.

Wow. One killmail from two different periods with some unverifiable claims attached. Very convincing.

Have a look at any of the kill mails from then and compare them to now, it is a lot easier and subsequently a lot more dangerous for PvE players.

but as usual show you evidence and you ignore it. Just because you hate carebears.

I hate carebears, but I have nothing against evidence.

One offs, with unverifiable stories about the length of time taken mean nothing. That isn't proof of more danger now. That you can't understand that is astounding. I could post killmails (if the forum rules permitted) showing the opposite and they would also mean absolutely nothing. Hand picked, individual killmails don't prove a thing for either side.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#936 - 2016-10-10 03:21:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Marconi
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

I hate carebears, but I have nothing against evidence.

One offs, with unverifiable stories about the length of time taken mean nothing. That isn't proof of more danger now. That you can't understand that is astounding. I could post killmails (if the forum rules permitted) showing the opposite and they would also mean absolutely nothing. Hand picked, individual killmails don't prove a thing for either side.

So hand picked google found them.

But your hatred is blinding you to the fact is is more dangerous now for PvE players than it was then. Gankers used to have to gamble some what now its just a few destroyers to kill things 100 times more valuable.

At least CCP are siding with the fact they need to get subs back, especially now that log ins are at 2006 levels. (Sorry factual, so you can just ignore this like every fact so far)

This game needs those Hi-sec PvE players whether you like it or not.

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#937 - 2016-10-10 03:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Mark Marconi wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

I hate carebears, but I have nothing against evidence.

One offs, with unverifiable stories about the length of time taken mean nothing. That isn't proof of more danger now. That you can't understand that is astounding. I could post killmails (if the forum rules permitted) showing the opposite and they would also mean absolutely nothing. Hand picked, individual killmails don't prove a thing for either side.

So hand picked google found them.

But your hatred is blinding you to the fact is is more dangerous now for PvE players than it was then. Gankers used to have to gamble some what now its just a few destroyers to kill things 100 times more valuable.

At least CCP are siding with the fact they need to get subs back, especially now that log ins are at 2006 levels. (Sorry factual, so you can just ignore this like every fact so far)

This game needs those Hi-sec PvE players whether you like it or not.

Except it isn't more dangerous now by any proof that has been provided.

Provide proof of that and I'll believe it. But claim it without proof and it's nothing but biased opinion. No more true than any other opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that doesn't make them fact.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#938 - 2016-10-10 03:54:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Marconi
-removed-

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#939 - 2016-10-10 03:57:14 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
The reason hisec exists is because players were being griefed out of the game. Fallacy away though.

Highsec existed even by the Castor release. It's been in the game since 2003. You might need to reframe that claim.


TIL EVE never had a Beta.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#940 - 2016-10-10 04:06:36 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

I hate carebears, but I have nothing against evidence.

One offs, with unverifiable stories about the length of time taken mean nothing. That isn't proof of more danger now. That you can't understand that is astounding. I could post killmails (if the forum rules permitted) showing the opposite and they would also mean absolutely nothing. Hand picked, individual killmails don't prove a thing for either side.

So hand picked google found them.

But your hatred is blinding you to the fact is is more dangerous now for PvE players than it was then. Gankers used to have to gamble some what now its just a few destroyers to kill things 100 times more valuable.

At least CCP are siding with the fact they need to get subs back, especially now that log ins are at 2006 levels. (Sorry factual, so you can just ignore this like every fact so far)

This game needs those Hi-sec PvE players whether you like it or not.


Ganking mission runners is no more or less difficult, really. The catch is that gankers have been refining their techniques, including tactics like forming probe constellations out of range of the target, moving them in place for one scan cycle, then moving the probes away. This means the mission runner has a tiny window in which they must be refreshing dscan in order to see the probes.

On the other hand, mission runners have MJD and gankers have to hunt for prey since there is no guarantee that their next target will be sitting on warp-in ready to be tackled.

So by the time the gankers arrive in your mission space, you know they are certain they will get a kill. It is not that mission running is more dangerous, it is that the less frequent mission invasions are now more likely to succeed rather than being attempts for the sake of trying their luck.

The endless pursuit of efficiency is driving this, not some plot by CCP.

Day 0 Advice for New Players