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AFK: The State of Highsec Mining and the Effect of Upcoming Changes

Author
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#41 - 2016-08-30 23:00:19 UTC
Lawrence Lawton wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Lawrence Lawton wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
@OP: The idea that someone NOT responding when being told, or in this case forced, to do so is just as much akin to null sec style blue balling as anything else. It doesnt automatically make someone a bot when you dont. I often use this tactic because I specifically KNOW the person WANTS to engage me in conversation and by NOT doing it I will **** them off more than if I do. Same with blue balling by runing away and denying classical "PvP" interaction. Denial of what a target wants is a very effective psychological counter and is employed constantly. The fact there have been so many threads and talk about blue balling, running away, carebearism, etc really does show its actual effectiveness as a weapon/tool.


I know all about blue-balling. It's a good method of dealing with anti-gankers.
As a part of avoiding potentially inflammatory language, I am using 'bot' in the literal sense of using third party software to automate mining against the TOS, and 'AFK' for the ones who don't respond when prompted. Whether they are intentionally trying to appear AFK is of little importance to me.

Yet then if they arent "AFK" then the only person thats wrong here is you my good CODE type person.Blink

Now that being said go blast miners for all I care.Twisted


If they aren't really AFK then they will warp off before getting ganked, and they will not be seriously affected by the game changes, so the problem solves itself.

LOL

I have to add though that I have known a lot of at the keyboard players that wouldnt warp out when they should for whatever reason. Ive even known people to sit there simply because they could too. People are odd in a lot of ways, some will even gank themselves on purpose.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2016-08-30 23:03:55 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
People are odd in a lot of ways, some will even gank themselves on purpose.



lol
like the re***d that welped i don't remember how many frigates with his alt on his main?
to get all those killmarks! yea, i get what you mean LolLol
Lawrence Lawton
The Lawton School for Pubbies Who Can't Mine Good
Novus Ordo.
#43 - 2016-08-30 23:05:11 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lawrence Lawton wrote:


The effects:

  • The markets are depressed by a flood of ore and ice, and there is an incentive to compete with even more AFK mining.
  • The value of mining outside of highsec is reduced, because it is often more practical to import compressed Veldspar and Scordite from Highsec for things like capital construction.
  • Player interactions are rare. A prospective miner who visits a belt and tries to interact with the local population is met with a wall of silence.


No, the prices are not depressed.

The issue with low ends and importation is that mining them out in NS is not worth it due to opportunity cost. If you are mining for the low ends you are leaving the high ends sitting there. Better to mine the high ends and import.

How do you know player interactions are rare, at best you can say interactions in local are rare.


I argue that the spread between low-end and high-end ore is so pronounced precisely because of the AFK mining in highsec.
I conclude that AFK mining is prevalent not because of lack of conversation in local, but by the fact that I can gank hundreds of ships every month. If the pilots were at their keyboards watching local they would see my -10.0 characters enter (it's far from subtle) and warp off long before I landed.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2016-08-30 23:08:31 UTC
BTW, I'll also note that the complaint was that these AFK miners are not interacting with the "community", I would argue that by engaging in transactions is interacting with the community although perhaps not individual players.

And frankly, I just don't see the issue here. I don't intend on "interacting" with most players. Also, the economy in the game is one of anonymous exchange for the most part and it is awesome because we get more stuff.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2016-08-30 23:13:39 UTC
Lawrence Lawton wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lawrence Lawton wrote:


The effects:

  • The markets are depressed by a flood of ore and ice, and there is an incentive to compete with even more AFK mining.
  • The value of mining outside of highsec is reduced, because it is often more practical to import compressed Veldspar and Scordite from Highsec for things like capital construction.
  • Player interactions are rare. A prospective miner who visits a belt and tries to interact with the local population is met with a wall of silence.


No, the prices are not depressed.

The issue with low ends and importation is that mining them out in NS is not worth it due to opportunity cost. If you are mining for the low ends you are leaving the high ends sitting there. Better to mine the high ends and import.

How do you know player interactions are rare, at best you can say interactions in local are rare.


I argue that the spread between low-end and high-end ore is so pronounced precisely because of the AFK mining in highsec.
I conclude that AFK mining is prevalent not because of lack of conversation in local, but by the fact that I can gank hundreds of ships every month. If the pilots were at their keyboards watching local they would see my -10.0 characters enter (it's far from subtle) and warp off long before I landed.


You are kind of new (unless you are an alt), but right now tritanium is at least 2x what it was when I joined the game. And Nocxium, holy crap that stuff is like 5x what it was when I first started playing. All of the low ends now have higher prices than they used to.

And you know they might be doing other things in game. Like setting up build jobs, chatting in another channel with other players, or tending to market orders. The fact that you gank them does not mean that they are AFK, it may mean they are not watching local which is different than being AFK.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#46 - 2016-08-30 23:14:42 UTC
Lawrence Lawton wrote:
Stuff


Look, another delusional opus from EVE's resident griefer "Elite PVP" organization.

What would you guys do if players stopped going AFK in defenseless ships?


There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2016-08-30 23:16:24 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Lawrence Lawton wrote:
Stuff


Look, another delusional opus from EVE's resident griefer "Elite PVP" organization.

What would you guys do if players stopped going AFK in defenseless ships?


Blow up the ships of those foolish enough to put too much cargo in them?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#48 - 2016-08-30 23:16:43 UTC
blah, blah, balh, make mining vessels defense as thin as a wet tissue so I can pew, pew them while MYSELF BEING AFK and still gank them with ease.



Btw, you do know why we all use procurers in highsec now, your organization made it impossible to mine in any ship that:

1) either costs a couple hundred million making the 2 catalysts it takes to gank one a huge loss discrepancy in YOUR favor.

2) Or it has such a wimped out defense already that using anything less than a fully tanked procurer is stupid.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Lawrence Lawton
The Lawton School for Pubbies Who Can't Mine Good
Novus Ordo.
#49 - 2016-08-30 23:26:58 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lawrence Lawton wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lawrence Lawton wrote:


The effects:

  • The markets are depressed by a flood of ore and ice, and there is an incentive to compete with even more AFK mining.
  • The value of mining outside of highsec is reduced, because it is often more practical to import compressed Veldspar and Scordite from Highsec for things like capital construction.
  • Player interactions are rare. A prospective miner who visits a belt and tries to interact with the local population is met with a wall of silence.


No, the prices are not depressed.

The issue with low ends and importation is that mining them out in NS is not worth it due to opportunity cost. If you are mining for the low ends you are leaving the high ends sitting there. Better to mine the high ends and import.

How do you know player interactions are rare, at best you can say interactions in local are rare.


I argue that the spread between low-end and high-end ore is so pronounced precisely because of the AFK mining in highsec.
I conclude that AFK mining is prevalent not because of lack of conversation in local, but by the fact that I can gank hundreds of ships every month. If the pilots were at their keyboards watching local they would see my -10.0 characters enter (it's far from subtle) and warp off long before I landed.


You are kind of new (unless you are an alt), but right now tritanium is at least 2x what it was when I joined the game. And Nocxium, holy crap that stuff is like 5x what it was when I first started playing. All of the low ends now have higher prices than they used to.

And you know they might be doing other things in game. Like setting up build jobs, chatting in another channel with other players, or tending to market orders. The fact that you gank them does not mean that they are AFK, it may mean they are not watching local which is different than being AFK.


I am the alt of 2012 character, so some people would consider me new. I'm not sure that the price increases you mention cannot be adequately explained by game changes and inflation. I remember 300M ISK PLEX. In any case, the low-end ore prices would be higher still.

It's true that the fact I can gank them proves only that they were not watching local. It's a weak excuse though. Imagine if somebody was mining in 0.0 and got angry because they lost a barge while checking their industry jobs. They'd be laughed at. Highsec is no different. Local chat can be opened in a separate window which is always visible, and not doing so is irresponsible at best.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#50 - 2016-08-30 23:32:59 UTC
Lawrence Lawton wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lawrence Lawton wrote:


The effects:

  • The markets are depressed by a flood of ore and ice, and there is an incentive to compete with even more AFK mining.
  • The value of mining outside of highsec is reduced, because it is often more practical to import compressed Veldspar and Scordite from Highsec for things like capital construction.
  • Player interactions are rare. A prospective miner who visits a belt and tries to interact with the local population is met with a wall of silence.


No, the prices are not depressed.

The issue with low ends and importation is that mining them out in NS is not worth it due to opportunity cost. If you are mining for the low ends you are leaving the high ends sitting there. Better to mine the high ends and import.

How do you know player interactions are rare, at best you can say interactions in local are rare.


I argue that the spread between low-end and high-end ore is so pronounced precisely because of the AFK mining in highsec.
I conclude that AFK mining is prevalent not because of lack of conversation in local, but by the fact that I can gank hundreds of ships every month. If the pilots were at their keyboards watching local they would see my -10.0 characters enter (it's far from subtle) and warp off long before I landed.



The environment that you describe where one watches local with hyper vigilance at all times best describes other environments of game play like low, wh, and nullsec. If we make highsec like all those other environments then the game loses something rather than gains anything. And I CONCLUDE that homogenization of a game is ALWAYS detrimental because players that had an interest in that segment of the game that became homogenized leave the game because the no longer feel there is a place for them.

While certainly anecdotal one of the main reasons i stopped playing WOW after 8 years wasn't that the game overall was bad it had, in fact, become a much better game BUT the classes had started to become homogenized and so having reduced choice i quite the game.

I can assure you that should highsec become just another hyper vigilant place to play the game i will stop playing, the world is stressful enough without a video game adding any more stress to my life.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#51 - 2016-08-30 23:33:25 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Lawrence Lawton wrote:
Stuff


Look, another delusional opus from EVE's resident griefer "Elite PVP" organization.

What would you guys do if players stopped going AFK in defenseless ships?


Blow up the ships of those foolish enough to put too much cargo in them?


These dimwits attack ships that can shoot back?





There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Lawrence Lawton
The Lawton School for Pubbies Who Can't Mine Good
Novus Ordo.
#52 - 2016-08-30 23:34:33 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

Btw, you do know why we all use procurers in highsec now, your organization made it impossible to mine in any ship that:

1) either costs a couple hundred million making the 2 catalysts it takes to gank one a huge loss discrepancy in YOUR favor.
2) Or it has such a wimped out defense already that using anything less than a fully tanked procurer is stupid.


This is heartening to hear, but sadly we still find plenty of Hulks and Macks every day.

If it makes you feel any better, there is no profit to be made off ganking a T2-fitted exhumer. If a Catalyst costs 10m and two of them are needed to kill a poorly tanked Mack, then I would recover an average of 8m worth of loot from your wreck and 8m of my own wrecks, with a bit more from your T2 salvage if I'm lucky, and maybe some ore if I come back with a Miasmos.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#53 - 2016-08-30 23:39:59 UTC
The assumption that someone is AFK simply because they dont act as you think they should or expect them to, is not just a dubious assumption is is down right absurd.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#54 - 2016-08-30 23:43:09 UTC
Lawrence Lawton wrote:
**Snip**


I am the alt of 2012 character, so some people would consider me new. I'm not sure that the price increases you mention cannot be adequately explained by game changes and inflation. I remember 300M ISK PLEX. In any case, the low-end ore prices would be higher still.

It's true that the fact I can gank them proves only that they were not watching local. It's a weak excuse though. Imagine if somebody was mining in 0.0 and got angry because they lost a barge while checking their industry jobs. They'd be laughed at. Highsec is no different. Local chat can be opened in a separate window which is always visible, and not doing so is irresponsible at best.



A lot of the price increases have been because of CCPs changes to the game. Namely nerfing gun mining in the drone lands into non existance and the true war on bots that CCP themselves initiated imo. CODE sure helped dont get me wrong as it made it much easier to spot Im sure when someone was botting but was hardly the decisive factor imo.

Ive known a lot of players that literally have told me that they arent worried about so and so in local because of... and then I see their lossmails in corp and I lol. People do tend to be lazy. You see it everywhere, not just miners really. The semi afk ratter, the semi afk L4 runner, the semi afk FW plexer.

Depending on the warp distance, your skills, their skills and ship type differences the time from you entering system to landing and engaging is a set formula with only slight variations to it. If they dont pay attention for that long at the wrong time they end up dead, irregardless of the method or sec space they are in.

CCP has created a game where ships die, a lot, it is good for the game. Ganking is one of those means to an end and ironically one of the spokes on the miner/manufacturers wheel as well. Death and rebirth. And thats really all I know about that. But I do enjoy playing the game they did create.LolTwisted




And with that I shall retire and lurk till I finally pass out.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2016-08-30 23:44:22 UTC
Lawrence Lawton wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lawrence Lawton wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Lawrence Lawton wrote:


The effects:

  • The markets are depressed by a flood of ore and ice, and there is an incentive to compete with even more AFK mining.
  • The value of mining outside of highsec is reduced, because it is often more practical to import compressed Veldspar and Scordite from Highsec for things like capital construction.
  • Player interactions are rare. A prospective miner who visits a belt and tries to interact with the local population is met with a wall of silence.


No, the prices are not depressed.

The issue with low ends and importation is that mining them out in NS is not worth it due to opportunity cost. If you are mining for the low ends you are leaving the high ends sitting there. Better to mine the high ends and import.

How do you know player interactions are rare, at best you can say interactions in local are rare.


I argue that the spread between low-end and high-end ore is so pronounced precisely because of the AFK mining in highsec.
I conclude that AFK mining is prevalent not because of lack of conversation in local, but by the fact that I can gank hundreds of ships every month. If the pilots were at their keyboards watching local they would see my -10.0 characters enter (it's far from subtle) and warp off long before I landed.


You are kind of new (unless you are an alt), but right now tritanium is at least 2x what it was when I joined the game. And Nocxium, holy crap that stuff is like 5x what it was when I first started playing. All of the low ends now have higher prices than they used to.

And you know they might be doing other things in game. Like setting up build jobs, chatting in another channel with other players, or tending to market orders. The fact that you gank them does not mean that they are AFK, it may mean they are not watching local which is different than being AFK.


I am the alt of 2012 character, so some people would consider me new. I'm not sure that the price increases you mention cannot be adequately explained by game changes and inflation. I remember 300M ISK PLEX. In any case, the low-end ore prices would be higher still.

It's true that the fact I can gank them proves only that they were not watching local. It's a weak excuse though. Imagine if somebody was mining in 0.0 and got angry because they lost a barge while checking their industry jobs. They'd be laughed at. Highsec is no different. Local chat can be opened in a separate window which is always visible, and not doing so is irresponsible at best.


They were game changes, basically they eliminated drone poo and also changed the refine rate for mission loot. Back in the day running a mission was quite good, you got LP, you got ISK, you got the loot which when refined could be sold or used to build stuff. Mining with guns was a Thing™.

Also there was not nearly as much miner ganking. There were Hulkageddon events, but those were like 1x a year. So the increase in ganks may be playing a role as well. Try getting in your trusty catalyst warp into a belt and slow boating over to the mining ships, some warp off. In that past that likely would not have happened.

And yes, keeping local open and in a separate window is a good move. Of course, some systems have lots of people in them, far more than LS and NS. So it's efficacy as an intel tool is somewhat diminished. And I would be willing to bet that most mining and ratting ships lost in NS are due to inattention.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2016-08-30 23:47:43 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Lawrence Lawton wrote:
Stuff


Look, another delusional opus from EVE's resident griefer "Elite PVP" organization.

What would you guys do if players stopped going AFK in defenseless ships?


Blow up the ships of those foolish enough to put too much cargo in them?


These dimwits attack ships that can shoot back?



I was referring to freighters.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#57 - 2016-08-30 23:51:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Teckos Pech wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Lawrence Lawton wrote:
Stuff


Look, another delusional opus from EVE's resident griefer "Elite PVP" organization.

What would you guys do if players stopped going AFK in defenseless ships?


Blow up the ships of those foolish enough to put too much cargo in them?


These dimwits attack ships that can shoot back?



I was referring to freighters.


Well, those are still defenseless ships, i.e. no weapons slots or drones.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

May Arethusa
Junction Systems
#58 - 2016-08-30 23:51:52 UTC
Quote:
there is no interaction between players when you randomly buy or sell.
it's a transactions of goods and isk which runs automatically.


Except that without either party, the transaction is an impossibility. Regardless of how that transaction is processed, the two players still interact with one another, and the community as a whole. Money and items are exchanged, albeit by proxy. These items alter the balance of supply and demand by a noticable margin if you believe the OP's hyperbole.

If there were no interactions between these "bots" and the world, how would it be possible for the OP to list the supposed impact they have had? CODE. itself is a product of their presence. So is this thread, and the million others like it.

The parameters for this discussion were clearly laid out in the OP;

Quote:
These miners do not interact with the community


They do. There are entire alliances dedicated to their eradication, and social groups centered around their protection. They influence market prices. They die. They buy more ships, created with minerals they may or may not have mined and sold. Those minerals might have built one of my ships, or one of your ships, or any one of the numerous ships in existence right now. Maybe your modules are tainted with their unholy ore.

They just don't interact with you directly, and are under no obligation to do so. There's a difference, and I'm glad we've had this time to clear that up.
Caco De'mon
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#59 - 2016-08-30 23:54:39 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Those are still classified as defenseless ships, i.e. no weapons slots or drones.


Ya it's weird that CCP gave them HP at all....it's like they should just be invulnerable right.

Maybe you should submit that as a bug....

*"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#60 - 2016-08-30 23:55:49 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

The environment that you describe where one watches local with hyper vigilance at all times best describes other environments of game play like low, wh, and nullsec. If we make highsec like all those other environments then the game loses something rather than gains anything. And I CONCLUDE that homogenization of a game is ALWAYS detrimental because players that had an interest in that segment of the game that became homogenized leave the game because the no longer feel there is a place for them.

While certainly anecdotal one of the main reasons i stopped playing WOW after 8 years wasn't that the game overall was bad it had, in fact, become a much better game BUT the classes had started to become homogenized and so having reduced choice i quite the game.

I can assure you that should highsec become just another hyper vigilant place to play the game i will stop playing, the world is stressful enough without a video game adding any more stress to my life.


I would argue you don't have to be hyper vigilant to avoid being ganked most of the time. Keep local open and look at it, use alt-a to so you can see if somebody new comes in. Also, look for systems that CODE. does not frequent as much. They do exist. And if somebody lands in your belt align out, and consider keeping your ship in motion, a moving target is harder to hit. My guess is these moderate precautions will help you avoid ganks better than most. It is a case of not out running the bear, just out running the other miners...let the bear eat them.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online