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So, Barge Info?
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#341 - 2016-08-21 16:33:45 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:

So just to be clear: Are you saying that only a tiny fraction of the ships CODE. kills are mining ships?


Yes. The bulk of its kills are made up of destroyers and under. Infact they open fire on themselves to get on each others mails as much as they can after every gank.
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:

Or are you saying that the #1 most used ships in all of those 0.0 fleet battles are mining ships?

One or the other must *clearly* be true...or is it both?


I clearly said the bulk of barges are not killed by gankers. Where did you get "the #1 most used ships in all of those 0.0 fleet battles" from out of that?
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#342 - 2016-08-21 16:53:57 UTC
Of course the most used ships in huge fleet battles are mining ships. Where do you think all those so-expensive-there-will-only-ever-be-a-few supers came from?

A signature :o
Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#343 - 2016-08-22 06:24:25 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


And under my plan the mining fleet would logi too.
Incursion runners make 100+M Isk/h including Logis, Miners make <30M Isk/h EXCLUDING logis.
The calculation Ehp x Dps to calculate the combat value of a ship is good but where do you land with mining ships? Because they have lousy DPS the Ehp must go up to compensate. The main problem is not targeting the passive nature of mining: you have to relay on others to protect you, may it be rats in belts or gankers.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#344 - 2016-08-22 08:10:44 UTC
Geronimo McVain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


And under my plan the mining fleet would logi too.
Incursion runners make 100+M Isk/h including Logis, Miners make <30M Isk/h EXCLUDING logis.
The calculation Ehp x Dps to calculate the combat value of a ship is good but where do you land with mining ships? Because they have lousy DPS the Ehp must go up to compensate. The main problem is not targeting the passive nature of mining: you have to relay on others to protect you, may it be rats in belts or gankers.


The logi are also mining ships, they would have 2 strip miners.
Wayne Donne
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#345 - 2016-08-22 16:45:03 UTC
How hard is this????

Covetor/Hulk: Best Yield | Worst Tank | Unique : Range

Retrieve/Mack: Medium Yield | Medium Tank | Unique : Capacity

Proc/Skiff : Worst Yield | Best Tank | Unique : DPS
Kueyen
Angharradh's Aegis
#346 - 2016-08-22 16:53:24 UTC
Wayne Donne wrote:
Retrieve/Mack: Medium Yield | Medium Tank | Unique : Capacity

Proc/Skiff : Worst Yield | Best Tank | Unique : DPS
Sadly, it looks like the Retriever and Mackinaw have lost their role bonusses in the current build on Singularity (well, as far as I can tell, they never actually had the +25% yield role bonus listed in their Traits, but now it isn't even listed in there anymore).

So now it'll continue the current "Worst yield" for Procurer, Retriever, Skiff and Mackinaw alike. Looks like CCP is struggling to find a valid role for them...

Until all are free...
Ded Akara
Doomheim
#347 - 2016-08-22 20:39:12 UTC
Kueyen wrote:
Wayne Donne wrote:
Retrieve/Mack: Medium Yield | Medium Tank | Unique : Capacity

Proc/Skiff : Worst Yield | Best Tank | Unique : DPS
Sadly, it looks like the Retriever and Mackinaw have lost their role bonusses in the current build on Singularity (well, as far as I can tell, they never actually had the +25% yield role bonus listed in their Traits, but now it isn't even listed in there anymore).

So now it'll continue the current "Worst yield" for Procurer, Retriever, Skiff and Mackinaw alike. Looks like CCP is struggling to find a valid role for them...


So the mackinkaw/ret will be just large cargo hold, gimp yield and easy to gank? Everyone is just going to continue using skiffs and those few who do use mackinkaws are quickly going to switch to skiffs.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#348 - 2016-08-22 21:09:47 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Problem with miners is that their ships have never promoted anything other than tank and yield. They have no options (the covetor has zero options other than yield and prey nothing turns up) and with the way the ships were set up it has effectivly ment CCP has been doing the fitting for them.

If some highsec miners choose to not bother with anything other than yield then that would be up to them. But frankly, the poor adapability of some highsec players should not mean miners in null, lowsec and WH space along with smart highsec miners should be stuck with boring, pre fitted ships that you cant defend without concord.



From that perspective, that's fine, sensible, reasonable, etc. But....




Stopped reading right there. People who complain about being given choices and then make bad choices, don't want to make choices etc. not really something I find that persuasive. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#349 - 2016-08-22 21:49:09 UTC
Geronimo McVain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


We are talking about mining and not incursion runners, the pace is completely different. It is disingenuous to do so.


The average incursion marauder has around 80-90k EHP, the same as the skiff I have proposed. So yea, if their billion isk ships are able to protect themselves in fleets then so can miners.

So the EHP of a marauder is not enough? Once again you show you have no understanding of balance.

Hey it's news to me that Incursion runners sit for hours in one spot and that they are flying mostly alone. I really thought that a incursion fleet!!!! has some logis etc. to bump. And if I'm not totally wrong incursion runners make a little more Isk/hour then miners.

Sorry but you are comparing ships that do totally different thing in a totally different way. An Incursion fleet will make short work with some would be gankers.


So you should be as safe solo as others are in a group?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#350 - 2016-08-22 21:52:48 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Ganking makes up the majority of losses in hisec, ...

Where's the data for that conclusion?


Ganking makes up the majority of mining ship losses in hisec and is the key factor in assessing game balance for CCP.

Simple statement of truth!

If it's mining ship losses, then that probably makes sense.

At least that's more restricted than the original statement, which if true, would be good to see the data.


You don't need to see the data Dracvlad has spoken the Truth™.

And to be clear, it may be true, but there are other ways to die in HS.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#351 - 2016-08-22 22:17:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:

So just to be clear: Are you saying that only a tiny fraction of the ships CODE. kills are mining ships?


Yes. The bulk of its kills are made up of destroyers and under. Infact they open fire on themselves to get on each others mails as much as they can after every gank.
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:

Or are you saying that the #1 most used ships in all of those 0.0 fleet battles are mining ships?

One or the other must *clearly* be true...or is it both?


I clearly said the bulk of barges are not killed by gankers. Where did you get "the #1 most used ships in all of those 0.0 fleet battles" from out of that?


Not counting capsules, about 42.53% of the kills for CODE. are mining barges and exhumers. Destroyers comprise about 12.4% of the kills.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#352 - 2016-08-22 22:24:38 UTC
^

Honestly I think Ganking is in a good spot right now. I don't think it is a "problem".

Even a few hundred mining ships a day is barely a drop in the bucket compared to the thousands out there mining - and you'll get no argument from me that the vast majority of them had it coming for not being prepared at all.


I just don't see why you guys need to pretend it isn't happening, or down-play it to the point of claiming that "more freighters die outside of high sec" or "more mining barges die outside of high sec" etc...

The numbers are pretty glaringly obvious if you bother to look at them...And they indicate that ganking numbers are perfectly manageable - but it does happen, often. A small number of gankers are quite active.


Just take the win and stop pushing for more...

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
#353 - 2016-08-22 23:16:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Gunrunner1775
scenario:

day 1:
log on my 3 accts, set up to go mineing.. use 2x hulks, tank fit, and 1 orca provideing fleet boosts, again tank fit
i start mineing.. shortly "hostile" group shows up.. i been at keyboard paying attention... so i warp off. and dock... i have no tank what so ever to speak of... even when tank fit.. i have no real offensive capabilities... so. my only option is to dock up

so i dock up, day wasted

day 2:
change in plans... orca too risky, too slow.. so opt to go with 3x mackinaw . again tank fit

same thing happens.. hostile party shows up... i dock up... cant mine cause again, even tank fit, got paper tank, and got no real offensive abilities to speak of

day 3:
i go with 3x skiffs.... full tank,
a few hostiles show up, i dont immediatly dock, but keep an eye out on local... i can now be a bit braver until a bunch of hostiles show up.. at which point i would dock up, but not when just 1 or 2 shows up

end results.. i now always mine in a skiff... i have the tank to survive but sacrifice some income...

flying a hulk or a mack, ends up sacrificeing more income because you spend more time docked up avoiding the gankers
you cant fight them or defend aginst them in a hulk or mackinaw... but in a skiff, at least you have a chance at surviveing ... you have no chance at all in the other two ..

nurfing the skiff wont solve the issue... it will just mean people quit mineing and do other things, or they quit the game because they can no longer do the thing they enjoy doing (and even if you do not want to belive it, or if your just a complete and total idiot and totaly clueless about the economy of the game... this would be a very very bad thing for the overall economy)
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#354 - 2016-08-22 23:28:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirty Forum Alt
Gunrunner1775 wrote:
(and even if you do not want to belive it, or if your just a complete and total idiot and totaly clueless about the economy of the game... this would be a very very bad thing for the overall economy)

Must we really start *that* entire argument...again? Roll


Also:

Day 4:
I realize my orca has a huge fleet hangar I've been failing to use, so I fit my orca for tank + mining boosts, load up the fleet hangar with a Scimitar and a svipul, and undock my 2x hulks + orca and go mine.

When the "hostile" group shows up in local, I smile to myself as I open up the fleet hangar on the orca.

As the red catalysts become visible on grid (now a good 15-30+ seconds before they can actually do anything due to enormous modern grid sizes) I calmly re-ship into my logistics ship + svipul, and lock all of my ships so I'm ready to apply logistics to whoever gets shot. I also set the logi to orbit at 20km, and make sure the svipul is in targetting mode.

As the catalysts finish landing on grid, I spam ctrl + click on them with my svipul pilot to insta-lock them, with my artillery prepped to fire.

Once my artillery activates on the first catalyst I activate my warp disruptor on the second, and see how many I can kill before they either suicide or flee. When my svipul takes fire, I repair it easily. If the gankers target my orca? Still plenty of time to transfer RR over to it.

I make sure to kill the capsules of my enemies as well, and leave their corpses floating in the void of space as a warning to others.


Days 5, 6, and 7 continue much the same - I get high yield from mining and also 50-60 million isk of free ganker loot occasionally. Maybe I throw a few blackbirds into my orca fleet hangar to counter the inevitable bomber/talos attack on my max-tanked orca - or maybe I resign myself to the fact that I'll make more isk looting the ganker wrecks than saving the orca anyway.

In any case, my EVE mining career is now much more exciting, *and* more profitable!


Yaaaay EVE \o/

Twisted

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#355 - 2016-08-22 23:40:37 UTC
I love it when you talk Dirty
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
#356 - 2016-08-22 23:51:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Gunrunner1775
while i love your description, and i have used a varient of that....

its not as effective in high sec....

example:..
yes, i swap to combat ships

technicaly i can not shoot at them until they shoot at me first in high sec, or else i will get myself concorded (which i do not desire)

in theory, they can warp in, and just sit there and follow me around and take no action, at which point, i am again unable to mine (unless i am mineing in a skiff, at which point i can mine if its only a couple of catalysts... if its about dozen give or take, then yea, time to dock up)

majority of miner gankers that i have observed maintain just enough security status to not be insta poped by navy / guns
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#357 - 2016-08-22 23:55:13 UTC
Gunrunner1775 wrote:
while i love your description, and i have used a varient of that....

its not as effective in high sec....

example:..
yes, i swap to combat ships

technicaly i can not shoot at them until they shoot at me first in high sec, or else i will get myself concorded (which i do not desire)

in theory, they can warp in, and just sit there and follow me around and take no action, at which point, i am again unable to mine (unless i am mineing in a skiff, at which point i can mine if its only a couple of catalysts... if its about dozen give or take, then yea, time to dock up)

I believe you will find *most* gankers these days you can shoot before they shoot you. They've been at it a while now, they are pretty much all -10.

The ones who aren't -10 are the newbs they've recruited - who are much less threatening in general anyway, but also more likely to panic and fire uselessly.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
#358 - 2016-08-22 23:58:44 UTC
LOL had just edited my post to state that i have observed the direct oppisite of what you are saying

different regions of space im guessing... 99% of the freighter gankers i have observed are all -10,

but the miner gankers, at least the ones i have followed around observing, im guessing these must be their alts (or mains) and they use another toon to farm tags to fix security status, or hunt rats just enough to fix it
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#359 - 2016-08-23 00:01:16 UTC
Gunrunner1775 wrote:
LOL had just edited my post to state that i have observed the direct oppisite of what you are saying

different regions of space im guessing... 99% of the freighter gankers i have observed are all -10,

but the miner gankers, at least the ones i have followed around observing, im guessing these must be their alts (or mains) and they use another toon to farm tags to fix security status, or hunt rats just enough to fix it

Well fair enough.

There is an even sneakier trick to use if you aren't up against the harder-core ones who bring a lot more numbers then:

Instead of combat ships, pack some max-tanked skiffs in the orca....and see if they notice the swap Bear

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)
Gunrunner1775
Empire Hooligans
#360 - 2016-08-23 00:03:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Gunrunner1775
with the change in the graphics of the exhumers that is on test... the swap from hulk to skiff.. and them not notice, MIGHT work.. depends on how they got the overview set and if they are paying attention

graphics are so damned similar, and all of them have 2 strip miners.... unless you zoom in, or have overview set right... you cant tell the difference


edit: just logged on to check the graphic icon when targeted.. yea, there is noticeable enough difference that even a semi experienced ganker will be able to see