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Every year, there are less users playing, why??

First post
Author
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#1521 - 2016-08-16 07:57:50 UTC
Nitshe Razvedka wrote:
We need to step back from ongoing petty squabbles people, and look to the big picture.

We need to make Empire Great Again.


For too long we have let Hillary types along with anarchists, 'progressives', codies and members of ISIS run amuck in our beloved EVE.



For those who love; freedom, liberty, bacon, the smell of bacon cooking and Bald Eagles, the time is now to push back and reclaim our Eve.





We need strong and decisive leadership on this issue.







We need a Donald to give Eve a good enema.



Are we smelling the bacon and cooking the bald eagles or the other way around? 'Merica!

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#1522 - 2016-08-16 10:34:59 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Nitshe Razvedka wrote:
We need to step back from ongoing petty squabbles people, and look to the big picture.

We need to make Empire Great Again.


For too long we have let Hillary types along with anarchists, 'progressives', codies and members of ISIS run amuck in our beloved EVE.



For those who love; freedom, liberty, bacon, the smell of bacon cooking and Bald Eagles, the time is now to push back and reclaim our Eve.





We need strong and decisive leadership on this issue.







We need a Donald to give Eve a good enema.



Are we smelling the bacon and cooking the bald eagles or the other way around? 'Merica!

Smell the bald eagle bacon - it is delicious.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#1523 - 2016-08-16 12:30:55 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Onictus wrote:


So toss most of the fleet PvP in the game because it doesn't match your arbitrary definition.

You want interactive in "the blob? fly a logi or a tackle, its the EXACT same thing as smaller ganks in low, but with sharks in the water.

Bonus points for dual boxing a logi and a DPS ship.


I have clearly indicated, twice, how that's my personal opinion. Personal opinion is not "WHAA I want EvE changed NAO!"

Besides that, I have played Tackle (I hate logi with a passion due to... experiences I had in 2005) in blobs, and it was hugely less fun than playing tackle in small scale. Yes, two of my accounts have been in a big alliance, so I had all the chances to learn what blobbing and structure bashing at 3am is about.


Opinion is based on personal preference. You seem the type that likes the action part of flying spaceships. Nothing wrong with that (except the fact that you can't help but be insulting about fleet pvp and the people who like it).

I feel the same way about small gang and solo pvp, it's not for me, the only time I roam is when my corp wants to get together and screw around, I don't personally seek it out, because I don't play this game to explode ship and make other people cry. When i pvp I am either defending my side's ratting/industrial space and activities (ie killing neutrals in our space so my bros can get back to farming) or participating in fleet pvp that will serve some group goal (taking space for us to use, denying space to someone else, keeping Goons in their place whatever lol.

If i took your way of communicating about things I'd call small gang pvp "organized circle jerking with no point at all" lol . But I don't I simply understand that different people have different tastes. I think you should remember that.
Nitshe Razvedka
#1524 - 2016-08-16 15:28:37 UTC
#southernfriedeaglenbaconmatters

Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.

Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1525 - 2016-08-16 16:14:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Jenn aSide wrote:
ve been in a big alliance, so I had all the chances to learn what blobbing and structure bashing at 3am is about.

Opinion is based on personal preference. You seem the type that likes the action part of flying spaceships. Nothing wrong with that (except the fact that you can't help but be insulting about fleet pvp and the people who like it).

I feel the same way about small gang and solo pvp, it's not for me, the only time I roam is when my corp wants to get together and screw around, I don't personally seek it out, because I don't play this game to explode ship and make other people cry. When i pvp I am either defending my side's ratting/industrial space and activities (ie killing neutrals in our space so my bros can get back to farming) or participating in fleet pvp that will serve some group goal (taking space for us to use, denying space to someone else, keeping Goons in their place whatever lol.

If i took your way of communicating about things I'd call small gang pvp "organized circle jerking with no point at all" lol . But I don't I simply understand that different people have different tastes. I think you should remember that.


I don't think calling "blob" a blob is an insult. Also, F1 spamming is not derogatory, is... a mechanic when you get to be one small cog in a big machine.
Of course that does not lead exactly to skillful gameplay. If anything, big fleets require very good strategists, I concede that.

Having played so many MMOs, I have come from an hardcore background, where every individual counts.
Imo other games valorized individual skill in a large group more than EvE does. I used to be in a top 10 first boss kills worldwide guild in another game, when new content came we all played together for 11-14h a day and to get first every individual single ability used (at the right time) counted. To the point, we recorded attempts from multiple players and the leaders would check second by second if everyone exactly did the absolute possible best in each second.

In EvE you can sort-of do the same, by going 12 vs 30 and similar and still take them out. I couldn't get the same adrenaline, the same feeling of accomplishment, when it was 1k vs 1k and all you could do was to enjoy lag and random hits coming for a random amount of time from a random opponent.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#1526 - 2016-08-16 16:26:57 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
ve been in a big alliance, so I had all the chances to learn what blobbing and structure bashing at 3am is about.

Opinion is based on personal preference. You seem the type that likes the action part of flying spaceships. Nothing wrong with that (except the fact that you can't help but be insulting about fleet pvp and the people who like it).

I feel the same way about small gang and solo pvp, it's not for me, the only time I roam is when my corp wants to get together and screw around, I don't personally seek it out, because I don't play this game to explode ship and make other people cry. When i pvp I am either defending my side's ratting/industrial space and activities (ie killing neutrals in our space so my bros can get back to farming) or participating in fleet pvp that will serve some group goal (taking space for us to use, denying space to someone else, keeping Goons in their place whatever lol.

If i took your way of communicating about things I'd call small gang pvp "organized circle jerking with no point at all" lol . But I don't I simply understand that different people have different tastes. I think you should remember that.


I don't think calling "blob" a blob is an insult. Also, F1 spamming is not derogatory, is... a mechanic when you get to be one small cog in a big machine.
Of course that does not lead exactly to skillful gameplay. If anything, big fleets require very good strategists, I concede that.

Having played so many MMOs, I have come from an hardcore background, where every individual counts.
Imo other games valorized individual skill in a large group more than EvE does. I used to be in a top 10 first boss kills worldwide guild in another game, when new content came we all played together for 11-14h a day and to get first every individual single ability used (at the right time) counted. To the point, we recorded attempts from multiple players and the leaders would check second by second if everyone exactly did the absolute possible best in each second.

In EvE you can sort-of do the same, by going 12 vs 30 and similar and still take them out. I couldn't get the same adrenaline, the same feeling of accomplishment, when it was 1k vs 1k and all you could do was to enjoy lag and random hits coming for a random amount of time from a random opponent.

To be fair the blob-fights are a bit more controlled now with time dilation rather than lag - though still long-drawn-out affairs and still fairly impersonal for the most part.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#1527 - 2016-08-17 14:10:21 UTC
Maraner wrote:
How is it that we can routinely have these large threads that rack up thousands of view and posts without a Dev commenting.

I suppose there is nothing in it for them, are they going to sit and argue that the game is not in trouble? Would be refreshing at least.


Because its the same old arguement rehashed for the god knows how many number of times, nothing but people saying the same things over and over again and having the same fights about viewpoints and who sees what as what.

In all seriousness I've seen this thread over and over again on these forums for almost eight years and there's never anything new in it, just tired old statements and arguments so familiar i could write a script for them if I could be bothered.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#1528 - 2016-08-17 14:45:02 UTC
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Maraner wrote:
How is it that we can routinely have these large threads that rack up thousands of view and posts without a Dev commenting.

I suppose there is nothing in it for them, are they going to sit and argue that the game is not in trouble? Would be refreshing at least.


Because its the same old arguement rehashed for the god knows how many number of times, nothing but people saying the same things over and over again and having the same fights about viewpoints and who sees what as what.

In all seriousness I've seen this thread over and over again on these forums for almost eight years and there's never anything new in it, just tired old statements and arguments so familiar i could write a script for them if I could be bothered.


Yea, it's like the U.N. where diplomats say the exact same words over and over and over again for years.

As for the DEVs, I'd bet they don't comment in these kinds of threads because they don't want to be misconstrued. Anything they say is going to anger someone, so it's best to say nothing.

Some people don't understand what this place is. It's a debate club, which is a polite way of saying "philosophical circle jerk". Many people post here because they think it's some kind of lever to use to get the DEVs to change the game. It ain't , at this point CCP is just letting people blow off steam on these "official forums" while they go about doing what they are going to do anyway.

(Ironic side note, the same people that can't hack it in game because they don't understand the nature of the game they choose to play are the same people who don't understand what this collection of forums are, so they are double frustrated due to their own ignorance).

If anyone wants to interact with the developers, twitter and reddit are better places to do so.
Solecist Project
#1529 - 2016-08-17 14:58:13 UTC
I, for one, don't want any devs to post in my threads.

:P

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#1530 - 2016-08-17 15:04:33 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


I don't think calling "blob" a blob is an insult. Also, F1 spamming is not derogatory, is... a mechanic when you get to be one small cog in a big machine.
Of course that does not lead exactly to skillful gameplay. If anything, big fleets require very good strategists, I concede that.


This above demonstrates the reason for the disconnect (and also proably why you don't see the word blob as derogatory).

You seem one of those game players that is concerned with displaying "skill". Most players in most games I have played who talk about "skill" tend to be the type that don't understand that not everyone values the same things the same way.

You play to display skill (and maybe a 'rush'). I play to achieve PLEASING RESULTS. I'll explain using your own quote.


Quote:
In EvE you can sort-of do the same, by going 12 vs 30 and similar and still take them out. I couldn't get the same adrenaline, the same feeling of accomplishment, when it was 1k vs 1k and all you could do was to enjoy lag and random hits coming for a random amount of time from a random opponent.


Fleet Fighters (the people you derogatorily call "blobbers" and "F1 spammers") tend to not care about that kind of action. When I'm in a fleet I'm not looking for 'gudfights', I'm fighting to preserve my ratting space and the ratting/mining/industrial space of my friends and alliance mates (or take new space that we can then install other friends in). The in game proceeds from ratting let me plex my 4 accounts without using my cash.

Because we do this and thus maintain space to make isk in, these last few months I've been able to use plex. my income is good but I have real life goals and a 19 year old in college so my wife and I stick to a set budget. I budget money every month to pay for EVE subscriptions in case i can't rat for some reason (like last month because of the madness that affected my city and my employer I don't get to play for almost 2 weeks because of all the mandatory overtime I had to work).

When I make enough isk to plex, I get to take that actual cash and do something else with it., like this last weekend when I spent that 60 bucks to take my wife, my daughter and her fiancee to the movies and to a buffet. Knowing that my in game activities has a real impact in game (i and my friends have space) and out of game (went to a movie and stuffed myself at a buffet because I could plex to pay for EVE) is pleasing to me.

So from my point of view your 12 v 30 epic adrenaline rush fight is a worthless act of masturbatory self congratulation, where as they way I play is beneficial in multiple ways. The difference here is that I understand that you aren't like me so different things float your boat. This is why I don't feel the need to use derogatory terms about solo and small gang types, whereas you do the opposite.


Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#1531 - 2016-08-17 15:17:14 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Fleet Fighters (the people you derogatorily call "blobbers" and "F1 spammers") tend to not care about that kind of action. When I'm in a fleet I'm not looking for 'gudfights', I'm fighting to preserve my ratting space and the ratting/mining/industrial space of my friends and alliance mates (or take new space that we can then install other friends in). The in game proceeds from ratting let me plex my 4 accounts without using my cash.

While this is true of many 0.0 residents - there *are* true "F1 Monkeys" that tend to give the rest of you a bad name.

These are the players who *don't* care about the territory or the opportunities it affords - they literally *only* play to participate in giant fleets and press their F1 key when told to do so. What they get out of this is impressive looking killboards and bragging rights - even when such fleets lose the only way to get a bad-looking killboard from it is if you are the first to die.

In addition to paying a subscription fee - these players end up buying PLEX to sell for isk to buy more ships just to participate in these fleets - because they have no in-game income. The blob-fights are literally all they do.

I 100% know these players exist - because I'm at work right now, and I am literally 3 feet away from one of them.


It is a play-style like any other....as long as they enjoy it it is their decision how to play v0v


As for how common they are - there is no way to prove that...but they've seemed fairly prevalent in most 0.0 groups I've been a part of (admittedly I wasn't in very good 0.0 alliances)...

But these are the players that I think of at least when referring to "blobbers" or "F1 Monkeys", etc - and they really do exist, they aren't a myth P

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#1532 - 2016-08-17 15:37:21 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Fleet Fighters (the people you derogatorily call "blobbers" and "F1 spammers") tend to not care about that kind of action. When I'm in a fleet I'm not looking for 'gudfights', I'm fighting to preserve my ratting space and the ratting/mining/industrial space of my friends and alliance mates (or take new space that we can then install other friends in). The in game proceeds from ratting let me plex my 4 accounts without using my cash.

While this is true of many 0.0 residents - there *are* true "F1 Monkeys" that tend to give the rest of you a bad name.

These are the players who *don't* care about the territory or the opportunities it affords - they literally *only* play to participate in giant fleets and press their F1 key when told to do so. What they get out of this is impressive looking killboards and bragging rights - even when such fleets lose the only way to get a bad-looking killboard from it is if you are the first to die.

In addition to paying a subscription fee - these players end up buying PLEX to sell for isk to buy more ships just to participate in these fleets - because they have no in-game income. The blob-fights are literally all they do.

I 100% know these players exist - because I'm at work right now, and I am literally 3 feet away from one of them.


It is a play-style like any other....as long as they enjoy it it is their decision how to play v0v


As for how common they are - there is no way to prove that...but they've seemed fairly prevalent in most 0.0 groups I've been a part of (admittedly I wasn't in very good 0.0 alliances)...

But these are the players that I think of at least when referring to "blobbers" or "F1 Monkeys", etc - and they really do exist, they aren't a myth P


The question that popped into my head reading this is "ok, and?"

There are people who mine just to watch ore fill their holds. There are people who ship spin and do literally nothing else. What does that have to do you you or me or anyone else? It's not your cash their are spending to sub.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#1533 - 2016-08-17 15:50:14 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
The question that popped into my head reading this is "ok, and?"

There are people who mine just to watch ore fill their holds. There are people who ship spin and do literally nothing else. What does that have to do you you or me or anyone else? It's not your cash their are spending to sub.

As I said - they can play that way if they want, I have no particular problem with it.

But when *I* say "F1 Monkey" or something like that - I'm talking about *them*. 9 times out of 10 people like you assume I'm talking about you and jump in to defend yourselves, saying you aren't F1 monkeys.... But at least for myself, I'm not talking about players like you...

That is all P

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#1534 - 2016-08-17 16:52:39 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The question that popped into my head reading this is "ok, and?"

There are people who mine just to watch ore fill their holds. There are people who ship spin and do literally nothing else. What does that have to do you you or me or anyone else? It's not your cash their are spending to sub.

As I said - they can play that way if they want, I have no particular problem with it.

But when *I* say "F1 Monkey" or something like that - I'm talking about *them*. 9 times out of 10 people like you assume I'm talking about you and jump in to defend yourselves, saying you aren't F1 monkeys.... But at least for myself, I'm not talking about players like you...

That is all P


Then you should use a different word for what you mean. Apparently your idea of an F1 monkey is vastly different from what most other people think.
Lord Molly
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1535 - 2016-08-17 17:04:24 UTC
are there less people playing?

I mean the whole MBC vc CFC thing kinda broke eve recently, removing nearly all small gang content as larger entities hoovered up small corps and alliances into the bigger ones breaking lowsec pvp but on the whole are there not more people playing?
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#1536 - 2016-08-17 17:17:15 UTC
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The question that popped into my head reading this is "ok, and?"

There are people who mine just to watch ore fill their holds. There are people who ship spin and do literally nothing else. What does that have to do you you or me or anyone else? It's not your cash their are spending to sub.

As I said - they can play that way if they want, I have no particular problem with it.

But when *I* say "F1 Monkey" or something like that - I'm talking about *them*. 9 times out of 10 people like you assume I'm talking about you and jump in to defend yourselves, saying you aren't F1 monkeys.... But at least for myself, I'm not talking about players like you...

That is all P


Then you should use a different word for what you mean. Apparently your idea of an F1 monkey is vastly different from what most other people think.

Really? How would you define an F1 monkey then - if it is *not* a player who *only* flies in 0.0 blob fleets?

Please, elaborate...

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#1537 - 2016-08-17 17:19:14 UTC
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The question that popped into my head reading this is "ok, and?"

There are people who mine just to watch ore fill their holds. There are people who ship spin and do literally nothing else. What does that have to do you you or me or anyone else? It's not your cash their are spending to sub.

As I said - they can play that way if they want, I have no particular problem with it.

But when *I* say "F1 Monkey" or something like that - I'm talking about *them*. 9 times out of 10 people like you assume I'm talking about you and jump in to defend yourselves, saying you aren't F1 monkeys.... But at least for myself, I'm not talking about players like you...

That is all P


Then you should use a different word for what you mean. Apparently your idea of an F1 monkey is vastly different from what most other people think.


Well said.

It's not a huge deal, just irritating, people who use terms like "F1 monkey" are actually saying "I'm morally superior to you because I play a video game by smashing 2 or more buttons compared to your one". That makes them jsut as bad as the people they complain about.

It's that stupid, we are all wasting precious life time playing a video game. Even in the context of the game the fleet fighter (even if they are doing it just for killmails) is no lesser than some leet solo pvper or miner or banker or high sec mission runner or ganker or whatever.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#1538 - 2016-08-17 17:20:30 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The question that popped into my head reading this is "ok, and?"

There are people who mine just to watch ore fill their holds. There are people who ship spin and do literally nothing else. What does that have to do you you or me or anyone else? It's not your cash their are spending to sub.

As I said - they can play that way if they want, I have no particular problem with it.

But when *I* say "F1 Monkey" or something like that - I'm talking about *them*. 9 times out of 10 people like you assume I'm talking about you and jump in to defend yourselves, saying you aren't F1 monkeys.... But at least for myself, I'm not talking about players like you...

That is all P


Then you should use a different word for what you mean. Apparently your idea of an F1 monkey is vastly different from what most other people think.


Well said.

It's not a huge deal, just irritating, people who use terms like "F1 monkey" are actually saying "I'm morally superior to you because I play a video game by smashing 2 or more buttons compared to your one". That makes them jsut as bad as the people they complain about.

It's that stupid, we are all wasting precious life time playing a video game. Even in the context of the game the fleet fighter (even if they are doing it just for killmails) is no lesser than some leet solo pvper or miner or banker or high sec mission runner or ganker or whatever.

OK...fine...You *are* an F1 monkey....

Yeesh, I didn't know it mattered that much to you that I include you in the F1 monkey group...I'll use the term to describe all 0.0 residents from now on - just for you o7

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#1539 - 2016-08-17 17:22:35 UTC
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Well said.

It's not a huge deal, just irritating, people who use terms like "F1 monkey" are actually saying "I'm morally superior to you because I play a video game by smashing 2 or more buttons compared to your one". That makes them jsut as bad as the people they complain about.

It's that stupid, we are all wasting precious life time playing a video game. Even in the context of the game the fleet fighter (even if they are doing it just for killmails) is no lesser than some leet solo pvper or miner or banker or high sec mission runner or ganker or whatever.

OK...fine...You *are* an F1 monkey....

Yeesh, I didn't know it mattered that much to you that I include you in the F1 monkey group...I'll use the term to describe all 0.0 residents from now on - just for you o7


You should try growing up. Or would it be easier to just blame me because you hold a prejudiced attitude about something inconsequential?

Either way is good with me.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#1540 - 2016-08-17 17:25:09 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Well said.

It's not a huge deal, just irritating, people who use terms like "F1 monkey" are actually saying "I'm morally superior to you because I play a video game by smashing 2 or more buttons compared to your one". That makes them jsut as bad as the people they complain about.

It's that stupid, we are all wasting precious life time playing a video game. Even in the context of the game the fleet fighter (even if they are doing it just for killmails) is no lesser than some leet solo pvper or miner or banker or high sec mission runner or ganker or whatever.

OK...fine...You *are* an F1 monkey....

Yeesh, I didn't know it mattered that much to you that I include you in the F1 monkey group...I'll use the term to describe all 0.0 residents from now on - just for you o7


You should try growing up. Or would it be easier to just blame me because you hold a prejudiced attitude about something inconsequential?

Either way is good with me.

Look, I was simply explaining that I use the term in an accurate fashion - to describe players who could literally be replaced by a monkey trained to press the F1 key. And I know such players exist because I know some of them personally...

I went out of my way to say I do not think the term applies to the majority of 0.0 residents, I know most of you do a lot more than that...

I also made it clear that I have no problem with them playing that way - but F1 monkey is simply an accurate description of what they do...

*You* are the one who took that as an insult, that I wasn't including you...


So...why don't *you* grow up, or grow some thicker skin. You insist on taking insults where none have even been aimed at you, then of course people will insult you. Deal with it.

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)