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Every year, there are less users playing, why??

First post
Author
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1481 - 2016-08-15 00:36:33 UTC
Long threadnaught, so will start just from the initial impressions.

So why less players? Need to look at the history of eve throughout. And that starts with the OP's concept of PLEX. PLEX doesn't affect player quantiy, specifically the price. Highest player activities were well before PLEX existed. Eve play doesn't work on a FTP style of mechanic. FTP being where one group of players is casual and invests minimal, while a heavier competitive play group invests more. The issue of plex is that if the core game revolves around needing it, then some players leave.

PLEX also works on two principles. That somebody doesn't want to grind and farm to ship, most often new players or PvP, and the other who has no issue with it. In a successful FTP mechanic, the player's experienced is enhanced. Eve does has examples of these. Most successful is things like skins. Skins are a great way to enhance. They are optional and I have spent more than a bit on Aurum since came out because I felt it was value and an enhancement.

For the combat players, that same money goes to selling plex and others multibox, enhances their experience. Why is there still a Subscription that keeps plex valid?

Because free play tends to lean towards a more casual experience. Plexing itself would be more successful, or more satisfaction with a sub rate if the value was more. That is why I haven't sold a plex, or bought skins recently. I find current game is not up to the standards of investing more than the sub. The experience to get a PLEX also not enjoyable.

----------PLEX OUT OF THE WAY---------


Okay, history. Back in the turn of the decade eve was hitting it's peak. 50k at a time log ins, wide battles, and accessible. Isk inflation and power creep has made certain areas of play inaccessible.

If you want to get into something, instead of having the range of play as normal, you now need to niche. Poor, you gotta fly the low isk fleets. Want to maintain security status? Then stick to highsec. This one is where I group in. I hate pvp not for the pvp, but for the grind to replace ships if I want in the big fights, or if small gang, then I start losing access to a significant portion of the game.

"Well, that is what alts are for"

See previous statement of value. I have to pay twice as much just to have access to the whole game? Is why I went right from highsec to Null back in the day and limited my roams. I refused to lose the highsec access on my main character.

Now more and more, to try and make things more engaging, niche ships and modules come out. In the name of balance. Changes that do not reflect on eve community. Even simple stuff like the new mining ship concepts revealed. Two mining lasers on all of them due to the role bonus. Is unfortunate that we are now losing something that is a stable image of eve. Make use of description or lore to explain the bonuses or other means. Fantastic models, but what value has removing that bit of eve signature brought.

CCP and us as players need to look at eve for what it is on the gaming market place. We all have things we like about it, but why is the player base small and why is there a player base?

Eve offers something unique. A full open game environment. Where from your first undock, you can fly to wherever you want. Success is not tied to SP or time in game or your farming but how you applied what you did and learned as a player. But over time, this started to cause issues. The force projection, the isk farms, players outdoing what the initial threats were. Result is stopgap things. Fancy tools and exception to rules that have put up more borders and reduced player freedom and ingenuity. Things start becoming mandatory instead of just ingenuity.

This removes goals. Exploration is a favorite of mine where it got tweaked so all levels of it was instantly accessible. This also means that it quickly becomes worthless as the challenge is nothing more than a mechanic to be beaten and has removed the players from the equation for the most part. Toss isk at it, and you are in without the progression. Old data sites used to need some combat to get into. Means that you needed more than a fast cloaky ship to run null. needed friends, or be on the ball with a fine tuned fit.

I find there is much more, but that is why. The gaming world is still unique, but the gaming experience isn't keeping up with the times and its satisfaction amongst new players is diminishing fast. To counter, more and more of the games is being developed to follow traditional game models.

That works if you have a traditional game, but you got to offer it much better than what the market already has or maximize the original concept (see minecraft vs other voxel crafting games)

CCP, maximize your concept. Following some traditional plan to the letter does not work. You need to customize it for EVE. Identify the unique features, and maximize them

1. Open world - Make it open again
2. Assorted account age player base - refine mechanics to encourage the incorporation of new players. Eve is supposed to be about ships dying? Well cheap new bean ships are easy to replace. Refine to have them an advantage means they don't care about ship loss, and they get in on the action instead of excluded. Apply same to encourage different playstyles interacting positively. Making PvE PvP fodder just makes the PvE peeps quit. Nobody wins.
3. Don't make it a penalty to play end game. If eve is about big fleet battles, why is it that to be part of that you need to grind, sell plex, etc to afford it in a meaningful way? Why should a player need alts just to be able to have a main that is a lowsec pirate just so they can still have access to half the game environment?

Look and find answers to those, and the population will start to increase dramatically again. This development mentality is what led eve to it's peak.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#1482 - 2016-08-15 06:45:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Markus Reese wrote:

This removes goals. Exploration is a favorite of mine where it got tweaked so all levels of it was instantly accessible. This also means that it quickly becomes worthless as the challenge is nothing more than a mechanic to be beaten and has removed the players from the equation for the most part. Toss isk at it, and you are in without the progression. Old data sites used to need some combat to get into. Means that you needed more than a fast cloaky ship to run null. needed friends, or be on the ball with a fine tuned fit.




You hit the nail on the head there brother.




....Exploration

... "open world"....

Let me tell you something.

Here's how I used to play Eve and loved it.

Back in the day before there were SoE ships I used to fit a T1 Cyclone for exploration (a real "Captain Kirk" fit to would be ridiculous by today's standards but it worked) and use wormholes to go from highsec to nullsec and hit exploration sites. Occasionally I would hit sleeper sites too.

An "exploration" Cyclone as I had it at best could do a lvl4 mission or a 4/10 so sleeper sites at above a C3 and anything high up in the nullsec anom offering would be instant doom. Mainly I did this for exploration. For all other purposes such a ship would be poor for both PVe and PVP. The few PVP encounters I had with it went well only because they didn't call my bluff and I managed to escape. I did a lot of sneaking around and cloaking in nullsec I could add.

So in this "open world" as the game was, I would hit the WH/null exploration sites and draw off the NPCs using some very skillful speed and shield tanking along with drone fu. Then once I had them pulled off the cans and small fast threats killed, I could warp in, use my all level 5 analyze/hacking skills and run off with the loot before they could catch up.

I can see the forum warriors complaining already: why, you can't do that! You have to bring friends! You need an alt! And all the other stupid forum platitudes of people who are stultified in life and bring it into the game.

I did this for years, with that one ship. Never getting blown up, caught, destroyed. It even had a large rig from the days when rigs were all one size.

Then... one day....

"This container cannot be opened while it is still being defended".


It was over. And while it was probably in some dev blog or patch note somewhere, there was no fanfare, no chance to scream about it in any forums, no exploration CSM, no recourse. Nothing.

Other changes would occur, along with the advent of some very tough SoE ships. If CCP had done that in 2009 I would have died from the most epic nerdgasm in human history. But by the time those ships were introduced... well: meh.

Then came warp speed changes, making it harder to escape. Then interceptors that could escape their own bubbles (was fun not ending up in them).

Then came recons that you could not find on D-scan.

Then came WH changes that put you farther away from the hole, based on size. Just about everybody in the WH community hated that one.

Then ultimately, came the total revamp of exploration. Turning it into just another aspect of grind/farm content. With the original probing space seemed huge but it needed a revamp when wormholes were introduced (and that murdered lowsec mission running BTW) but it was OK.

Now space seems small and the exploration sites are not combat sites but we have nice ships at least. But hey there ARE some exploration sites (that I have not bothered with) that have some fighting.

And you need friends, or an alt. The world is not so open. I'm in a time zone where even most of the gankers are sleeping by the time I log in.


Exploration whent from being "what am I going to find today" to just more stultified, aspergian, grinding boring crap.

My version of the mistake being made here is that the game has turned in the direction towards people who do everything with one eye on their wallet or their killboard but that community of people who just loved the game and playing has been given the shaft.

Right now I'm playing something else.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#1483 - 2016-08-15 07:40:37 UTC
Princess Adhara wrote:
Posting in an "Eve is dying" thread! \o/

I am spaceship.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1484 - 2016-08-15 08:18:21 UTC
For me, I don't like following the herd, I do what I find fun, for me it was belt ratting in 0.0 and doing it with people trying to catch you. My preferred ship was the drake, 72km range great tank and ability to kite, I set up BM's around the belts in the system I was operating in and warp down to a roid then kite to a safe spot, people would come in try to get me to warp out but I would just keep blapping the rats then warp out. I would then return with a Hurricane set up with warp core stabs to salvage and would do it in from of them again. The bounties were not great but every so often I would get a faction drop, or even rarer an officer spawn. Certain players would run around after DT looking for them so you had to be quick. From the modules I gathered I would refine and make ships for PvP.

I had great fun doing this in a contested system, all the tactics and the strategies were mine, I had these ideas from reading the forums and trying out stuff in lowsec before heading to Stain, I then refined then from experience, watching how others did it

What changed was reprocessing, because players were taking advantage of changes to build cost CCP added additional material then to get rid of that they cut the refining in half, as I was in Stain shooting Sansha rats my standings were bad. So a massive hit. Other changes were making officers really tough so I could not take them down without something meaty, which I agree with but that nerfed my income too, though later I had the ISK for a carrier and was using that to kill them

More and more people got into black ops so you had to be very careful, I had three failed attempts on me by the top FC of Stain Empire, I got a rep as being difficult to catch with them so they hardly bothered to chase me after a while.

After the drake got nerfed due to 0.0 fleets using it, I had to find another ship but nothing really worked to the same degree, by this time I had a second account so went with twin Phantasm's set for PvP but when the combat recons were made to be invisible to D-scan the risk level became too much for me. Because I would carefully pick systems so I had good D-scan cover in the main, so when people undocked or jumped through even in cloaky ships I would get intel, that knowledge went with the D-scn immunity. I explained why this was an issue on EN24.

The fun for me was operating in 0.0 when people were trying to catch me, sometimes I would turn on them and kill stuff, sometimes I would bait them by being passive and then just go very aggresive and blow them up, most people get lazy when you are passive with them for example one guy used to shoot me every time I undocked, so I would do it and dock and he got lazy, then I went for him and blew him up.

I keep hoping that CCP will at least throw a few crumbs my way, which is why I ask for a small citadel with cloak abilities and a small capacity, so I can do this nomadic type approach in systems that are not used by greedy large entities. But no.

CCP seems to have a fixation on forcing people to join large entities in sov space, I like small groups operating like this, for me its more fun. Furthermore my times of play don't fit in with the real action periods in Eve, I normally find myself playing with Aussies for example which is great but limited.

So back to hisec I went, decided to do something fun in terms of little guy stuff and there I walked into the total imbalance which I refer to as hisec farming aided by the Ganking Community Manager (I would love to know what went on with the decision to allow hyperdunking.) Which has just about put the lid on my disillusionment, I actually came back because of medium citadels, I wanted to help Aaron setup in Stain by donating to him a Medium even though he hates me and uses me as a convenient excuse for his own failings, but found that the 0.0 players had got the market removed for reasons I have yet to find out.

So I had a good long look at hisec and what I found shocked me, I talked to a lot of people and found the majority of people in hisec were alts of 0.0 and low sec players, I hardly found anyone that were dedicated hisec, and those that were were niche players, they find something that worked for them and avoided anything else. They keep their heads down and avoid, initially I wanted to try to set up something to develop in hisec, but the player base in hisec is so passive and so over farmed it just has no spirit for it, also many of them play Eve with the feeling that CCP hates them and their play-style, they have become totally fatalistic and are diminishing in numbers.

And what is evident to me with the disappearence of the prey who realised they were just patsies due to many bad balance decisions by CCP the game is stagnating to where risk averse gankers, hot droppers and scammers will be the majority and it is sad to see.

There are many good things in Eve which is why people like me keep at it, the combat system is sophicticated and fun at small to medium fleet levels, my ideal situation would be with a group of people who could get 12 together for fleets, that is just so much fun. You have to find people with the same sort of lets go for it type of attitude, but you have to avoid the people who just want a green killboard because their attitude to play is akin to dropping a black ops fleet on a single ratter, execution style with no risk. And that for me is what is killing this game most of all, that mentality.

The worst thing for me is that everyone and his dog does black ops add to that the boring AFK cloaky camping and that finally just said enough is enough, when you operate in systems where all of them have a cloaky sitting in it you will know what I mean. That sort of mentality by those players is just lame, CCP needs to adjust balance to deal with player attituide, just forcing prey into 0.0 is just not going to work.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1485 - 2016-08-15 09:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Markus Reese wrote:
Long threadnaught, so will start just from the initial impressions.

So why less players? Need to look at the history of eve throughout. And that starts with the OP's concept of PLEX. PLEX doesn't affect player quantiy, specifically the price. Highest player activities were well before PLEX existed.


This is untrue, the highest player levels were well after PLEX's introduction I was on the day of the highest ever player load on the servers and plex had been out for years at the time plex was running 200-300mil...and you could buy a Hurricane under 30m and a Dominix for about 85-90.

PLEX hit the server in 2008 (if I remember correctly) and eves highest PCUs were between then and 2014 when it fell off a cliff.

PLEX related? I don't know.

I know that I run a LOT less accounts now because of the capital jump changes, they made the general aggravation of living in null not worth the energy, so my two "main" accounts are active, there are about 5 farmers, marketers, and cyno/cloaker alts that I have no current plans in reactivating.

In the circles I moved in, 3 accounts was likely average, a lot of people used to run a LOT of toons for various functions....and that was partly facilitated by the fact that a couple good rated DED sites could fund four accounts for a quarter.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#1486 - 2016-08-15 11:08:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Moac Tor
Onictus wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
Long threadnaught, so will start just from the initial impressions.

So why less players? Need to look at the history of eve throughout. And that starts with the OP's concept of PLEX. PLEX doesn't affect player quantiy, specifically the price. Highest player activities were well before PLEX existed.


This is untrue, the highest player levels were well after PLEX's introduction I was on the day of the highest ever player load on the servers and plex had been out for years at the time plex was running 200-300mil...and you could buy a Hurricane under 30m and a Dominix for about 85-90.

PLEX hit the server in 2008 (if I remember correctly) and eves highest PCUs were between then and 2014 when it fell off a cliff.

PLEX related? I don't know.

I know that I run a LOT less accounts now because of the capital jump changes, they made the general aggravation of living in null not worth the energy, so my two "main" accounts are active, there are about 5 farmers, marketers, and cyno/cloaker alts that I have no current plans in reactivating.

In the circles I moved in, 3 accounts was likely average, a lot of people used to run a LOT of toons for various functions....and that was partly facilitated by the fact that a couple good rated DED sites could fund four accounts for a quarter.

Max PCU was around mid 2012 if I recall correctly. The differences IMO between now and then was that Eve was at the height of it's complexity back then with new feature upon new feature being added. This was seen as a problem though as there were a lot of features which were left for years without update as development time was being used bringing out new features. There was a big drive to streamline things and remove needless complexity, and this was around the time when tiericide was first envisioned.

Although reiterating on some of the old features was much needed back then, CCP went a little crazy with their new vision for a simplified and more user friendly eve. Their drive to 'remove needless complexity' and to streamline everything is probably what is killing player numbers more than anything right now IMO.

Eve is a game in which the players love to play around with mechanics and found ways to do things that others had never thought of (watch any RnK video for an example of the this type of gameplay in action). Eve players are definitely not the type of players that like cookie cutter theme park rides. Herzog's story of the exploration cyclone is familiar to me and is definitely a relic of the old eve, and I think part of what made the game really enjoyable back then.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1487 - 2016-08-15 11:30:10 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Exploration whent from being "what am I going to find today" to just more stultified, aspergian, grinding boring crap.

My version of the mistake being made here is that the game has turned in the direction towards people who do everything with one eye on their wallet or their killboard but that community of people who just loved the game and playing has been given the shaft.

Right now I'm playing something else.


Truer words cannot be spoken.

Only PvE I found worth doing in EvE, were sleepers and - most of all - exploration. Now it's farmable crap, no skill needed.

Right now I am playing another game too, where exploration of the ultra-massively huge, unknown galaxy brings me back EvE memories...
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1488 - 2016-08-15 11:40:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
The problem is this: you can't market a scary, complex, ruthless dystopian universe with great success for a decade, and then wear some $1000 jeans and make it a shallow, pale, idiot-friendly ghost of its former self.

Maybe by keeping EvE "true" to its mission, players would bleed anyway, because we are witnessing an epocal shift towards simpleton oriented, huge expendable playerbase free to play stuff. And also, towards a "press F1 in 1k fleet" brainless sheep.

But by making EvE a "stuck in the middle" game deluding old-timers while still not attracting enough simpletons, is going to get the bad of both decisions.
Nitshe Razvedka
#1489 - 2016-08-15 14:21:07 UTC
Code is the cancer on Eve.

Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.

Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.

Caco De'mon
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1490 - 2016-08-15 14:28:34 UTC
Nitshe Razvedka wrote:
Code is the cancer on Eve.


Yes yes, you want to mine your PLEX and have to look away from Barney on YouTube...we get it.

*"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#1491 - 2016-08-15 14:31:21 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Exploration whent from being "what am I going to find today" to just more stultified, aspergian, grinding boring crap.

My version of the mistake being made here is that the game has turned in the direction towards people who do everything with one eye on their wallet or their killboard but that community of people who just loved the game and playing has been given the shaft.

Right now I'm playing something else.


Truer words cannot be spoken.

Only PvE I found worth doing in EvE, were sleepers and - most of all - exploration. Now it's farmable crap, no skill needed.

Right now I am playing another game too, where exploration of the ultra-massively huge, unknown galaxy brings me back EvE memories...


Explorers are only a small piece of the PVE pie. Not everyone who PVE's does so for the excitement of the unknown, rather many of us do pve because we like 'engineering challenges'. I never cared for exploration, but figuring out new ways to do missions and anomalies and complexes. And look at Dotlan for npc kills (and the missions and complexes forum), there are a LOT of folks like me.

When it comes to PVE, CCP has actually spent way too much time trying to appease the PVE Explorers (all the changes to scanning and data/reclic sites and modules and ships etc etc) while only throwing an occasional bone at PVE Engineers (Burner Missions and NPC capital spawns are about it lately).

As for the post you were replying too, that's just more of Herzog's bias showing, the game has moved away from people who love playing the game for it's own sake and more towards the "can I catch up to other players" ("why yes you can, with skill injectors) standard mmo crap.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#1492 - 2016-08-15 14:34:15 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The problem is this: you can't market a scary, complex, ruthless dystopian universe with great success for a decade, and then wear some $1000 jeans and make it a shallow, pale, idiot-friendly ghost of its former self.

Maybe by keeping EvE "true" to its mission, players would bleed anyway, because we are witnessing an epocal shift towards simpleton oriented, huge expendable playerbase free to play stuff. And also, towards a "press F1 in 1k fleet" brainless sheep.

But by making EvE a "stuck in the middle" game deluding old-timers while still not attracting enough simpletons, is going to get the bad of both decisions.


This I can agree with.

Well, All but the F1 nonsense, Fleet fights aren't about individual skill, they are about cooperation and participating in something epic, the only people who complain about 'f1 monkeys' are solo pvp'rs who think they are special lol.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1493 - 2016-08-15 15:33:44 UTC
Caco De'mon wrote:
Nitshe Razvedka wrote:
Code is the cancer on Eve.


Yes yes, you want to mine your PLEX and have to look away from Barney on YouTube...we get it.


Actually I am writing a book please come and gank me.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Lex Gabinia
Res Repetundae
#1494 - 2016-08-15 17:55:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Exploration whent from being "what am I going to find today" to just more stultified, aspergian, grinding boring crap.

My version of the mistake being made here is that the game has turned in the direction towards people who do everything with one eye on their wallet or their killboard but that community of people who just loved the game and playing has been given the shaft.

Right now I'm playing something else.


Truer words cannot be spoken.

Only PvE I found worth doing in EvE, were sleepers and - most of all - exploration. Now it's farmable crap, no skill needed.

Right now I am playing another game too, where exploration of the ultra-massively huge, unknown galaxy brings me back EvE memories...


Explorers are only a small piece of the PVE pie. Not everyone who PVE's does so for the excitement of the unknown, rather many of us do pve because we like 'engineering challenges'. I never cared for exploration, but figuring out new ways to do missions and anomalies and complexes. And look at Dotlan for npc kills (and the missions and complexes forum), there are a LOT of folks like me.

When it comes to PVE, CCP has actually spent way too much time trying to appease the PVE Explorers (all the changes to scanning and data/reclic sites and modules and ships etc etc) while only throwing an occasional bone at PVE Engineers (Burner Missions and NPC capital spawns are about it lately).

As for the post you were replying too, that's just more of Herzog's bias showing, the game has moved away from people who love playing the game for it's own sake and more towards the "can I catch up to other players" ("why yes you can, with skill injectors) standard mmo crap.

I think the point was that the changes to simplify exploration were largely unwelcome to the true explorers.
Dirty Forum Alt
Forum Alts Anonymous
#1495 - 2016-08-15 18:12:24 UTC
Explorers: The only group in EVE who are actually *angry* that CCP made what they do *easier*

I mean, I understand why, I really do. I'm not saying you are wrong to be angry. I'd be angry too, if I were an explorer...

But it is kind of funny, if you think about it...

The dead swans lay in the stagnant pool. They lay. They rotted. They turned Around occasionally. Bits of flesh dropped off them from Time to time. And sank into the pool's mire. They also smelt a great deal.

Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings (Sussex)

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#1496 - 2016-08-15 18:31:12 UTC
Lex Gabinia wrote:

I think the point was that the changes to simplify exploration were largely unwelcome to the true explorers.


That's true, just like CCPs tinkering with other forms of PVE (Seagull mentioned something about PVE on the o7 show and it made me cringe) will probably have the same result.

Like I always say, there is a reason most of us who do combat style PVE (missions, complexes, anomalies) in this game are doing that rather than trying to kill drifters of sleepers or whatever. Sometimes CCP demonstrates understanding of this (Burner missions are the best example, they even said they are 'engineering challenges') and sometimes they don't (Drifter Incursions anyone, ow wait, you can't).



Dirty Forum Alt wrote:
Explorers: The only group in EVE who are actually *angry* that CCP made what they do *easier*

I mean, I understand why, I really do. I'm not saying you are wrong to be angry. I'd be angry too, if I were an explorer...

But it is kind of funny, if you think about it...


It's kind of funny, till you realize it was CCP catering to a vocal minority of lazy as hell explorers who constantly whined about exploration being to hard from 2007 to 2012. IMO it's like how miners begged for years for buffs to barges (and the removal of insurance payouts for gankers), got those buffs, then experienced even more ganks lol. Same with wardecs, fix wardecs, end up with blanket wardecs.

It would be the same if ccp 'fixed' cloaky camping, the result would be way more hot drops, not less.


The moral of the story for all these complainers and beggars is this : Be careful what you ask CCP for, they just might give it to you...Twisted
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#1497 - 2016-08-15 19:16:28 UTC
Nitshe Razvedka wrote:
Code is the cancer on Eve.



I agree with this comment but not for the reasons that would exist in a void (no pun intended).


CODE. is cancer. Yes.

(and given how serious the disease is, I'm not too eager to compare other things to cancer, but it's not generally malice these days, it's still raises a flag in my head for having seen what cancer does to a person and a family - but I'm not going the political correctness route on this, it's just slang and not being a millennial I can brush such "issues" aside and press on)



But.....


When cancer happens to a person, having been around it, there's a tendency to notice some patterns to the occurrence. That is, RL cancer happens to everybody every day, and our bodies kill it. It's when the body cannot kill it that a person gets cancer. Western medicine kind of misses the point acting like it was bad luck or something.

But here is why CODE is cancer based on my paragraph above: We look at the cancer and fail to see the environment or conditions that cause it

So CODE. is cancer not because CODE is CODE but because of the environment that we have reached in the game that helped it become a cancer.


AWOXing had some kind of nerf, but "Safaris" were common in the past. Ganking has always been a thing. Scamming as well. Wardecs too.

Notice that as Eve Online has headed down the path towards what we have today that something like CODE. becomes "a thing"? They are not doing anything different than what people have done before. Freighters were always getting ganked. Miners too. All CODE. has done was market an Orca-load of butthurt around it.

Once upon a time CODE would have never been a thing, just like a healthy body does not get cancer. Thus to blame CODE for existing at all would be to miss the mark. We need to, like in cancer prevention and early treatment, find and correct the environment that fosters it.

The rise of CODE. is a symptom of the decline of Eve just like cancer is the end result of (in most cases) un-treated persistent inflammation.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#1498 - 2016-08-15 19:19:55 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Exploration whent from being "what am I going to find today" to just more stultified, aspergian, grinding boring crap.

My version of the mistake being made here is that the game has turned in the direction towards people who do everything with one eye on their wallet or their killboard but that community of people who just loved the game and playing has been given the shaft.

Right now I'm playing something else.


Truer words cannot be spoken.

Only PvE I found worth doing in EvE, were sleepers and - most of all - exploration. Now it's farmable crap, no skill needed.

Right now I am playing another game too, where exploration of the ultra-massively huge, unknown galaxy brings me back EvE memories...



I too am thinking of going there... my only fear is that it looks like "Ark in space" and Ark never interested me.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#1499 - 2016-08-15 19:47:30 UTC
Herzog confuses the symptom with the disease. CODE is the symptom. The disease is/was CCP zeal to expand EVE Online.

Of course Ganking occurred in the past. And I am by no means saying that people were smarter or more attentive in the past, this is not rose colored glasses thinking. But EVE has always been a game that turned off most who tried it, and as CCP went down the "easy to learn, hard to master" BS route of simplifying the game and 'lowering it's barriers', an odd thing happened.

That odd thing was that more and more people who wouldn't have chosen the original EVE stuck around for a bit longer, mainly between 2009 and 2013. And they mainly stayed in high sec, and they mainly had a 'traditional mmo' mindset of "play this MMO like it's just a single player game, but with other people around".

A the gankers saw their prey (ie emotionally volatile traditional MMO players who stick to high sec and don't really have the general predisposition to survive being screwed with) sprouting up like rabbits in a wheatfield. Add to that some misguided "tweaks" and "balance passes" from CCP aimed directly at gankers (who are prickly types that take things like that like provocations rather than admonitions) and Viola! you just made the conditions for something like CODE to happen.

I wish I could talk real world stuff here, because there are thousands of historical corollaries in the real world. CCP softening up the game to get more people created a situation where awful bad guys (who prey on the soft) could exist. People who know world events know what I mean lol.

Ironic isn't it, if CCP hadn't lowered barriers to get more people, we wouldn't even be discussing this Cool
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1500 - 2016-08-15 20:11:05 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The problem is this: you can't market a scary, complex, ruthless dystopian universe with great success for a decade, and then wear some $1000 jeans and make it a shallow, pale, idiot-friendly ghost of its former self.

Maybe by keeping EvE "true" to its mission, players would bleed anyway, because we are witnessing an epocal shift towards simpleton oriented, huge expendable playerbase free to play stuff. And also, towards a "press F1 in 1k fleet" brainless sheep.

But by making EvE a "stuck in the middle" game deluding old-timers while still not attracting enough simpletons, is going to get the bad of both decisions.


This I can agree with.

Well, All but the F1 nonsense, Fleet fights aren't about individual skill, they are about cooperation and participating in something epic, the only people who complain about 'f1 monkeys' are solo pvp'rs who think they are special lol.


No, really. Fleets are also those made by a 5-12 guys, they are the most fun and, for sure, you can't get away with them just by spamming F1.

I am very subjective on this, for my own self, below 20-30 guys it's still "fleet", above that it's "blob". I hate blobs and mob mentality in general. I repeat, it's subjective of me. However, since I care about my opinion(!), I am not going to pour time or money on something that rewards blobs far more than "interactive" PvP.