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We want to help ccp bring more players into eve!

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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2016-08-16 13:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
How do we get more players?

We tell them what EVE is honestly, and the right kind of players will bring themselves. EVE is a very niche game, and just getting more players isn't necessarily a good thing, because if it means pandering to a demographic that was never in EVE's niche, then it means turning EVE into something it is not.

People seem to think this is a game that puts up barriers intentionally, or that the player base drives people away, but they often forget that there are a lot of people here who have been here for a very long time, and at some point, they were newbs too. They survived just fine, so something about EVE obviously enamoured them enough to it for them to stick around and do just fine. People like me and many others, we've been there, done that, and done it when it was a lot harder than it is now.

So no, you don't need to do anything except be honest about what EVE is, instead of trying to pretend it should be something else that you'd prefer, because if you'd prefer something else, then you should be playing something else.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Ramona Taggart
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2016-08-16 13:26:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona Taggart
What I've noticed during my years of playing is that low sec and low sec life creates a great deal of apprehension in many players. Truth be told it took me years to get the confidence/nerve to finally just start flying around in low sec and living there.

But why did it take me so long? Does it take others as long as well?

I feel as though there really isn't a solid introduction to low sec or what it means when you put yourself out there. As a new player, I won't know what RvB means or how to find a corporation; let alone a good one. There are far too many choices and I am already uncertain on how to begin. I won't know a great deal about Faction Warfare since there is no introduction/tutorial at all and I would be risking MY precious ships that I can barely afford as a newbie. Why would I want to do that?

I really, really feel that there should be a type of PVP-Lite Arena or battle mode for NPC corporations where they are given a ship that has no value and is based on their skills and role, placed on a team of fellow players in the same or allied NPC corp, and fight it out to complete objectives in a single or multi-system battle. This mode can incorporate tutorials, videos, and notifications about what does what, what happens when X happens, etc.

For one, it gives players hands-on, applicable experience to PVP in an area that current tutorials do not cover effectively and in a way that benefits learning. Secondly, fighting in this manner can help build confidence in players so that the transition into a player corporation, venturing into low sec, or engaging in FW officially does not take as long as it could.

Sure, if a player wants to PVP they are going to seek out any of these opportunities at their own discretion, but there are very few "official" teachable moments in this game and we need more of them. We need more opportunities that nudge players and provide them with the knowledge they need to get started.

Where is the introduction to PVP? Where is the introduction to FW? How can we improve the new player experience so they gain an understanding of the skills they need to have fun?
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2016-08-16 13:42:35 UTC
Ramona Taggart wrote:
...there are very few "official" teachable moments in this game and we need more of them. We need more opportunities that nudge players and provide them with the knowledge they need to get started.

Where is the introduction to PVP? Where is the introduction to FW? How can we improve the new player experience so they gain an understanding of the skills they need to have fun?


EVE has never been a hand-holding game. It was never meant to be. When it first came out, the tutorial was, "here's a ship, now **** off". See, the other thing is, it's not a solo game either. One of the core dynamics of this game is the social dynamic, which as an autistic person myself has actually been quite challenging, but not unfathomably impossible. It certainly took me a while to find my way to getting out to low sec as well, but my passion for the game is what kept me around long enough to find the right group of people that I meshed with, and at the end of the day, that's what it's all about, the social dynamic.

The answer to all of your questions is, 'the players'. The players are the introduction to PVP. Yes, you're putting your 'precious ship' on the line, as we all did. As you'll continue to do throughout any decent PVP career. The players are your introduction to FW. The players improve the new player experience by going out there, finding the newbs, and encouraging them to join a corp (a good one, not some half-baked mining corp that charges 50% tax and takes all your ore for pittance) where they can learn an understanding of the game.

There are no 'official' teachable moments in this game because there are no official moments, full stop. It's an open sand box, entirely player-driven, which means all moments in the game are also player driven. No two PVP scenarios are ever going to be alike enough for standardised 'official teachable moments' to even be possible. Now an understanding of the basics, and getting a grip on the fact that you should always accept you've consented to PVP and the possibility of losing your ship from the moment you undock are certainly solid teachable concepts, but anything beyond that is up to the players.

If the tutorials can be improved in any way, it could be for CCP to identify any number of responsible PVP corporations willing to train new players, by either surveying what's available themselves or asking for volunteers (and vetting them of course), and adding a comprehensive run-down of those corporations to the end of the tutorials for new players to peruse at their own discretion.

Because, if we're being honest, the fact that any tutorials exist at all these days is much more hand-holding than any number of long-term veterans ever had, and they all seem to be doing just fine.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Nitshe Razvedka
#64 - 2016-08-16 14:49:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Nitshe Razvedka
Roenok Baalnorn wrote:
Nitshe Razvedka wrote:
Roenok Baalnorn wrote:
For all of you that insist that suicide ganking and pvp are the problem with new player retention... Im just going to leave this here. Between 1:00 and 5:00 is what you are looking for. Enjoy!



Typical codie rhetoric backed up with NO, I repeat NO empirical evidence. (sample gp is key)

Code looses again.


First, I have nothing to do with CODE. I dont even live in empire and have spent little of my nearly a decade of playing there.
Second, a sample size of 80,000 UNIQUE accounts in a game that has in the neighbor of 500,000 accounts is a good sample size.
Third, just because you want something to be true doesnt make it true.

TL;DR = Learn 2 Play.

Games generally have a high turnover rate. Especially games in which you do not have to invest anything into starting out. People give games more of a chance if they had to buy the game before trying it, because they invested in it. People quit playing games for a lot of reasons. " i got killed by a player" in a game that is known and advertised as a pvp game with large fleet battles is not a common one. Most people come into Eve expecting they might get killed by other players.

How do people manage to get killed doing pve in this game? Because they are to lazy to learn the game mechanics, change their habits or situation a little bit, fit their ship properly( you know how many people run around in paper bags with billions in plexes and injectors? Ironically you can use these items remotely, you never have to take them out of the dock), or a myriad of other little things that will prevent them from becoming a KM.

I havent been killed doing PVE in TWO(2) YEARS. The last time i was killed was because i thought i clicked dock on a noctis, didnt apparently, so it never warped and i left the pc for 20 min after i clicked it without confirming i actually warped. I haul stuff in indies in H/L/N. I do sites in H/L/N, I kill rats in H/L/N. I huff gas in null/w space. I am literally ratting in a null pipe right now 2 jumps from an enemy stronghold and they love to pvp, roam, camp, and hotdrop. Been ratting this spot for a few days now. Reds come through regularly a couple times an hour.

So am i special snowflake? Yep.I learned from every single death of what not to do and then stopped doing it. But, people rather come on the forums and whine about deccers and CODE and how they cant mine or run missions or rat and how those groups are ruining the game. If you put your hand in a fire, do you whine about how its burning and someone needs to put it out? Or do you take your hand out of the fire? Why do you change your behavior when you play games? If CODE and deccers are bothering you...move to null. wardecs dont matter and code doesnt go to null. Its actually safer to mine in null than it is to mine in empire and it pays better.

People rather whine about their situation than make one small change to fix it even when whining takes ten times the effort. People rather whine about a problem, rather than learn how to resolve it. And people want to act like their problem is a massive problem for all players when it really isnt.

Edit to add: My alliance is wardecced by at least 1( usually 2 or 3) corps/alliances at a time pretty much 24/7/365. THAT doesnt prevent me from doing things in empire either.


That old Eve presentation as empirical and scientific as ManBearPig's climate science. Get some egamecation up ya. Been deconstructed on previous threads, don't waste our time. Not even bothering linking.

Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.

Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Caco De'mon
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#65 - 2016-08-16 14:55:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Caco De'mon
Nitshe Razvedka wrote:
Not even bothering linking.


Because as in other links, you also had nothing...

The power to stop CODE is at your disposal yet all you do is whine here...

*"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
Roenok Baalnorn
Baalnorn Heavy Industries
#66 - 2016-08-16 15:41:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Roenok Baalnorn
Nitshe Razvedka wrote:


That old Eve presentation as empirical and scientific as ManBearPig's climate science. Get some egamecation up ya. Been deconstructed on previous threads, don't waste our time. Not even bothering linking.
Please enlighten us with your eternal and divine wisdom.

Without bringing actual real world into it, this is a common practice. Side A provides empirical and factual data. Side B denies it, claims its wrong, doesnt count, isnt valid, or doesnt include something ridiculous they pulled out thin air. Then either tries to use "circular logic", no logic, or just flat out says " oh well im not going to waste my time telling you why thats not correct, however its not correct because i said so and people i agree with also said so."

Provide us with logical, factual data. Or the flaws in CCPs Data. Which im pretty sure you cant do because you would have to know exactly every step that CCP took with every sliver of data CCP used and you would have to duplicate their data, tests, and analysis to the letter to be able to actually say its wrong. And its a pretty safe bet that they didnt release all this data( for obvious reasons) nor all the steps they took to come to their conclusion. Therefore, you cannot accurately say that the data /results are right or wrong because you dont have the data or the process used to obtain the results.

Learn the scientific method , then Learn to play.
Ramona Taggart
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2016-08-16 15:44:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona Taggart
Remiel Pollard wrote:

The answer to all of your questions is, 'the players'. The players are the introduction to PVP. Yes, you're putting your 'precious ship' on the line, as we all did. As you'll continue to do throughout any decent PVP career. The players are your introduction to FW. The players improve the new player experience by going out there, finding the newbs, and encouraging them to join a corp (a good one, not some half-baked mining corp that charges 50% tax and takes all your ore for pittance) where they can learn an understanding of the game.

I feel the same and I applaud the willingness of many players who use their time to help new players feel more comfortable and at home in EVE Online. And I agree that the players form a large support base for many activities. I'm not saying we should replace the wonderful things that players do for each other, but having that foundational knowledge provided by the game can act as insurance when player help or opportunities do not present themselves. Players are not present all the time and opportunities can change by the day.

We are in a thread that is talking about a problem with retention rates and issues surrounding the processes of drawing in new players. I know trends change and game populations fluctuate all the time, but I worry that more support (perhaps in a way they are familiar with) may be needed to help newer players as this decline continues.

If your only support for new players is other players, what happens when subscription numbers continue to decline as they are? Will a precious thing like EVE University always be here or able to maintain consistent quality as the years progress? What happens when they close up shop? Without support from other players, will subscription numbers decline even faster because now new players will have a far more challenging time learning to play and opt to leave for another game?

I don't disagree that EVE was very light on the tutorials 7-8 or even 10 years ago, but it doesn't mean that it was a good idea not to have them because the game has done so well over the years. We see so many out-of-game guides and tutorials that explain the simplest mechanics that I feel we should perhaps better incorporate them into the game.

I wonder if a slight change in our philosophy on how we educate and assist new players would be beneficial to the health of EVE Online.
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Now an understanding of the basics, and getting a grip on the fact that you should always accept you've consented to PVP and the possibility of losing your ship from the moment you undock are certainly solid teachable concepts, but anything beyond that is up to the players.

I think this is something we need as well. Understanding how to fit ships for PVE or PVP is an incredibly nebulous affair. Is it bad that I fit my ship with two types of repairers? Can I fit multiple types of guns on my ship? I think really showing players this information would be a boon.

Great post btw and thank you for the read.
Sack o'Richards
Doomheim
#68 - 2016-08-16 15:45:12 UTC
Natural CloneKiller wrote:
How can we as the community help ccp bring more players into the game?

Post your ideas here. Be direct so ccp can clearly see your ideas.

N


Look to our RL friends and associates. Surely there is at least one of my friends that would like EVE. The question is, do i want them to know the EVE me?

Oops
Malakye Appleton
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#69 - 2016-08-16 16:01:02 UTC
Revamp PI to include a Tower Defense game that enables us to build defenses on the planets to fend off invaders imposed by other ships crews. :)

Living the dream, one tear at a time...
Solecist Project
#70 - 2016-08-16 16:29:13 UTC
Veers Belvar.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Nitshe Razvedka
#71 - 2016-08-16 16:35:03 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Veers Belvar.


No, Veers played by Marquees of Queensberry Rules, I don't.

Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.

Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Solecist Project
#72 - 2016-08-16 16:40:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Bingo.

Would you two please stop lettingthe troll constantly manipulating your egos?
Be better than that and stop feeding him.
You're ruining it for everyone else as his tools.

You want that? I doubt it.

Thanks.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2016-08-16 16:40:18 UTC
Problem solved.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Solecist Project
#74 - 2016-08-16 16:41:44 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Problem solved.

Thanks!

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Nitshe Razvedka
#75 - 2016-08-16 16:46:53 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Problem solved.


I am glad you acknowledge your shortcomings. That's real progress for a former codie. Well done.

Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.

Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Nitshe Razvedka
#76 - 2016-08-16 16:48:01 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Problem solved.

Thanks!



No, thankyou Sol for facilitating.

Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.

Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Caco De'mon
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#77 - 2016-08-16 16:49:09 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Problem solved.

Thanks!



Ditto....should have done that sooner...o7

*"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#78 - 2016-08-16 18:53:25 UTC
Why would I try to bring anyone into the game with the state it's in? (been there done that, they all left)

Yeah I'm talking about wardecs, ganking, bumping, new player experience etc.

We're talking about a new generation of gamers coming through, the "millenials" The self entitled generation of console players who now get damn near everything f2p, or a game spoon fed with the direction all laid out for them.

Console players, the ones who all have cheat codes and finish a game in days with god mode on.

Then there's these forums. If they had been this bad and showing how bad the game is weighted against new players, would I have even done the trial? I really don't know.

But there's no doubt that most reading these now will run away screaming if they were considering joining.

As for the CCP assertion that most players who die early stay, I don't buy it, never have, never will.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#79 - 2016-08-16 19:08:00 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:

As for the CCP assertion that most players who die early stay, I don't buy it, never have, never will.


Of course you don't buy it it doesn't fit what you want to believe, so like most human beings, you ignore the facts.

It's why the world is the way it is.
Roenok Baalnorn
Baalnorn Heavy Industries
#80 - 2016-08-16 19:46:03 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
Why would I try to bring anyone into the game with the state it's in? (been there done that, they all left)

Yeah I'm talking about wardecs, ganking, bumping, new player experience etc.

We're talking about a new generation of gamers coming through, the "millenials" The self entitled generation of console players who now get damn near everything f2p, or a game spoon fed with the direction all laid out for them.

Console players, the ones who all have cheat codes and finish a game in days with god mode on.

Then there's these forums. If they had been this bad and showing how bad the game is weighted against new players, would I have even done the trial? I really don't know.

But there's no doubt that most reading these now will run away screaming if they were considering joining.

As for the CCP assertion that most players who die early stay, I don't buy it, never have, never will.


Thats ok we didnt want WoW players who wanted to turn our game into a handholding insta- gratification game. And im pretty sure i spend more money and bring more content to this game than all of your friends combined would of. And CCP didnt have to change a thing.