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We want to help ccp bring more players into eve!

First post
Author
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#101 - 2016-08-17 23:53:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
I think the best thing I could do would be to sit on gate immediately outside the starter systems and then try to gank everything that jumps through the gate.

Get them interacting with other players in true Eve style and use that as way to help teach them what they want to know.

Not being into ganking though, maybe I could drop an alt in a starter Corp and try to get Corp chat moving. It's so quiet in NPC Corps. No wonder people leave before really trying the game. There's no interaction built in when you first start.

Unfortunately, with so many starter Corps it's difficult to get them all active.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Serene Repose
#102 - 2016-08-18 00:03:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
I think this player who spends two years making ISK then is afraid to lose it in PVP is a myth. The fact is well-established a considerable majority of people just do not like PVP and don't play PVP games. This is further evidenced by the loudly cried about shortage of PVP games. It's just not worth the investment to cater to such a small audience.

The ones who PVP in EVE are the ones always complaining about the game. They're the ones always trying to get rid of high sec, and other such measures to force people to play PVP. Why? 'Cause so few people PVP they spend most of their time sitting alone, bored, wondering what "we" could do to INCREASE the amount of people in PVP.

Naturally, they've given this some thought. SO, they get on forums (in all games, not just this one) and make all sorts of assertions to create the notion that PVP is the only game and this game is just not doing it right, so some distorted game (hurting business, naturally) is being played here. SO, if that incompetence could be shut down by taking THEIR expert advice, all would suddenly become well.

Well...all would suddenly become what THEY want to do, not what the majority of gamers on the internet and in the gaming world want to do. We, as gamers, just have to realize these people are with us, and they're never going away. As a result, they are going to continually spam every forum in the gaming world with these threads about "How to perfect THIS game"...advice that is peculiarly the same in every game - make it an open PVP arena for me and my buddies with no rules. Ta da!

Rather than spend all that effort trying to convert games into their personal PVP arenas (then owning the forums, etc.) their time all these years would have been better spent developing their "perfect PVP game". They could have been playing it for years now. They could have filled their own brave forum with threads about how mighty they are and how all the other games suck! But, this has never happened, and with good reason.

PVP games are not a good business idea. Never have been. Never will be. UNLESS (of course) you're talking about an ACTUAL PVP GAME. (What can that possibly be?) Why, it's the First Person Shooter (FPS). They're pure PVP. SO....why don't these people plaguing us here, and in games worldwide, just play THOSE games? 'Cause you can't GANK people in those games. You can't set upon lesser developed and geared people and one-shot them so you can giggle up your sleeve. Everybody you try to kill there can just as easily kill you!

So...those brave souls come here and start...."You know what would make this game perfect..."-ing us. They do it everywhere. It's my guess only old age and arthritis will ever stop them.

Stick that in your pipes and smoke it. Cool

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#103 - 2016-08-18 00:07:20 UTC
Living up to your signature I see.

Seems like you need a lie down. Maybe your meds too.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Serene Repose
#104 - 2016-08-18 00:10:40 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Living up to your signature I see.

Seems like you need a lie down. Maybe your meds too.

Coming from you, that's a compliment.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#105 - 2016-08-18 01:16:03 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
I think the best thing I could do would be to sit on gate immediately outside the starter systems and then try to gank everything that jumps through the gate.

Get them interacting with other players in true Eve style and use that as way to help teach them what they want to know.

Not being into ganking though, maybe I could drop an alt in a starter Corp and try to get Corp chat moving. It's so quiet in NPC Corps. No wonder people leave before really trying the game. There's no interaction built in when you first start.

Unfortunately, with so many starter Corps it's difficult to get them all active.




Calling ganking PVP is like calling raep "lovemaking".

Realize that and you will stop being part of the problem.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#106 - 2016-08-18 01:16:42 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
Stick that in your pipes and smoke it. Cool



What, exactly? The vacuous assertions regarding what PVP players want, as if we're all part of some cult that thinks exactly the same, or the ridiculous notion that a 'real PVP game' can only be a mindless FPS? I think you need to go back and re-read the arguments of PVP'ers like myself, and relearn what this game actually is, before you try to post another paragraph from your ignorance.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#107 - 2016-08-18 01:20:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

Calling ganking PVP is like calling raep "lovemaking".

Realize that and you will stop being part of the problem.


Comparing the real trauma of the victims of unconsentual sexual assault and/or contact to the banal discomfort of losing a pixelated rookie ship on a video game is... **** the analogy, it's ******* disgusting is what it is, and the sooner you realise that, the sooner you'll learn what constitutes a legitimate problem.

Like it or not, PVP = player vs player, a conflict between players. That is not an exclusive term, it is as equally inclusive of one-sided conflict as it is of fair and even conflict.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#108 - 2016-08-18 01:25:45 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:


Calling ganking PVP is like calling raep "lovemaking".

Realize that and you will stop being part of the problem.

Jesus christ mad ,cop on.
i would expect better from you.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#109 - 2016-08-18 01:32:41 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
I think this player who spends two years making ISK then is afraid to lose it in PVP is a myth. The fact is well-established a considerable majority of people just do not like PVP and don't play PVP games. This is further evidenced by the loudly cried about shortage of PVP games. It's just not worth the investment to cater to such a small audience.

The ones who PVP in EVE are the ones always complaining about the game. They're the ones always trying to get rid of high sec, and other such measures to force people to play PVP. Why? 'Cause so few people PVP they spend most of their time sitting alone, bored, wondering what "we" could do to INCREASE the amount of people in PVP.

Naturally, they've given this some thought. SO, they get on forums (in all games, not just this one) and make all sorts of assertions to create the notion that PVP is the only game and this game is just not doing it right, so some distorted game (hurting business, naturally) is being played here. SO, if that incompetence could be shut down by taking THEIR expert advice, all would suddenly become well.

Well...all would suddenly become what THEY want to do, not what the majority of gamers on the internet and in the gaming world want to do. We, as gamers, just have to realize these people are with us, and they're never going away. As a result, they are going to continually spam every forum in the gaming world with these threads about "How to perfect THIS game"...advice that is peculiarly the same in every game - make it an open PVP arena for me and my buddies with no rules. Ta da!

Rather than spend all that effort trying to convert games into their personal PVP arenas (then owning the forums, etc.) their time all these years would have been better spent developing their "perfect PVP game". They could have been playing it for years now. They could have filled their own brave forum with threads about how mighty they are and how all the other games suck! But, this has never happened, and with good reason.

PVP games are not a good business idea. Never have been. Never will be. UNLESS (of course) you're talking about an ACTUAL PVP GAME. (What can that possibly be?) Why, it's the First Person Shooter (FPS). They're pure PVP. SO....why don't these people plaguing us here, and in games worldwide, just play THOSE games? 'Cause you can't GANK people in those games. You can't set upon lesser developed and geared people and one-shot them so you can giggle up your sleeve. Everybody you try to kill there can just as easily kill you!

So...those brave souls come here and start...."You know what would make this game perfect..."-ing us. They do it everywhere. It's my guess only old age and arthritis will ever stop them.

Stick that in your pipes and smoke it. Cool



See my recent comment to the gankbear. Their problem is that they try to conflate PVP with ganking, which are two different things.

The way I see it, and you've been around too so let me know if I'm wrong, is that these gankbears are the people who sat in lowsec killing everything that moved and for no real reason. But their days were numbered. While they could overwhelm anybody coming through the gate and have their fun, in due time things would change:
- growing corporations were able to field more forces and at greater projection to counter gate camps.
- the ability to jump provisions into and out of highsec (part of "force projection" but with goods) put an end to convoys and individuals moving their stuff.
- Apocrypha probing mechanics ensured certain death for the kind of players who, in spite of gate camps, or were smart enough to avoid them, could not do anything in lowsec for now the entire system could be easily camped like a gate, thus they stopped showing up.


So lowsec bought it. Think about it. Do you remember the days before "they" made ganking a playstyle? Lots and lots of threads about lowsec that all amounted to "CCP Please force more players into my gate camp!"

But they did adapt: into highsec aggro fu and can-flipping. An alliance called TEARS was formed. This resulted in PVP ships versus PVe ships and miners which they also tried to call "PVP". They were creepy cousins. If you did nothing as they took the loot and became flashy only to you, it was tears and you were probably too mad or butthurt to do anything. If you shot the wrecks then it meant that you were mad or butthurt. (Remember, Gankers ALWAYS project. It's their world that is all about getting hurt of not "calming down" that's why they bank on it).

But CCP did not kill that outright. They provided tools to counter it to some extents. Crimewatch was one, and that bothered the people who claimed it was all about PVP. They didn't like being suspect and could be shot by anybody except one mission runner they could overwhelm and gank. But probably the worst thing was being able to abandon loot. This shut down the aggro-fu.

TEARS fell apart. Then came the rise of James 315 and a movement that, if you look at the rhetoric, is entirely based on butthurt derived from CCP trying to "nerf ganking" by making more possibilities for PVP as the solution. Only mission runners making mistakes coud be ganked. Incursion fleets where targeted for a while, once again "gotcha games" because actual PVP was not what they wanted, so then came the safety button which they cried oceans of tears over. Incursion runners became nearly untouchable.

So the easy-kill crowd had to resort to bumping and ganking. It's good that they have been so relegated and corralled into such a small niche. If they all got corralled right out of the game nobody would miss them.

But here they are, complaining just like they always have. You are right.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#110 - 2016-08-18 01:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Their problem is that they try to conflate PVP with ganking, which are two different things.


Your problem is that you think PVP is exclusive to what you personally accept as PVP, which is why you're confused about the points put forward by 'gankbears' and have yet to make a substantial argument against them, and instead compare them to rapists to virtue-signal your way into a position of moral authority so as to justify out-grouping gankers, making them the bad guys who can only be wrong about everything.

Ganking is a form of PVP, just like the vast majority of activities in this game, including PVP combat and even trade.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#111 - 2016-08-18 01:41:39 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:


Calling ganking PVP is like calling raep "lovemaking".

Realize that and you will stop being part of the problem.

Jesus christ mad ,cop on.
i would expect better from you.




You have read enough of my posts well enough to know that has always been my opinion and in what context I make that comparison.


Admittedly, it is rather irksome when the "you log into the game you consent to being ganked" excuse rings as hollow as "well she left the house in high heels and a skirt....".


It may not be the exact same thing, but remember what this thread is about, right? You know the game, I know it. But a new player (read "more players") who comes into contact with that mindset are going to make that exact same comparison that I can make right here, and what we know differs from what an outside observer and/or noob knows, and they decide whether or not what want to put up with "people who think like that".

There is a difference between ganking and PVP and as Serene correctly points out, people love the hell out of games that are made around PVP.

I would also add to that, FPS games have already headed into the area of character customization (Halo for example) and to some extent you can customize your skills too.

The combination of these features with FPS games is IMO the looming death of Eve Online. All these new constant ship skins reek of desperation.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#112 - 2016-08-18 01:47:44 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
I think the best thing I could do would be to sit on gate immediately outside the starter systems and then try to gank everything that jumps through the gate.

Get them interacting with other players in true Eve style and use that as way to help teach them what they want to know.

Not being into ganking though, maybe I could drop an alt in a starter Corp and try to get Corp chat moving. It's so quiet in NPC Corps. No wonder people leave before really trying the game. There's no interaction built in when you first start.

Unfortunately, with so many starter Corps it's difficult to get them all active.




Calling ganking PVP is like calling raep "lovemaking".

Realize that and you will stop being part of the problem.

1. Where did I call anything pvp in my post? Do you even read?
2. What problem am I part of exactly? Industrialist problem? Hauler problem?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#113 - 2016-08-18 01:49:37 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Their problem is that they try to conflate PVP with ganking, which are two different things.


Your problem is that you think PVP is exclusive to what you personally accept as PVP, which is why you're confused about the points put forward by 'gankbears' and have yet to make a substantial argument against them, and instead compare them to rapists to virtue-signal your way into a position of moral authority so as to justify out-grouping gankers, making them the bad guys who can only be wrong about everything.

Ganking is a form of PVP, just like the vast majority of activities in this game, including PVP combat and even trade.



Funny, I never "personally" accepted a definition of PVP.

New players probably don't have that congealed in their perception either. But I would bet their gut feeling wins in the end.

That is, if you have a combat ship and go looking for a fight or go where there is high risk compared to "I'll just move this stuff over there.... undock*WTF*BOOM*"

Then you and the other gankbears have this blame the victim mentality and again, like it or not, people in western civilization do not like that mindset and won't SUBSCRIBE to it and when they see what kind of people are already playing, they don't SUBSCRIBE.

You might have a rationalization hamster just running in that little wheel in your head helping you justify everything you personally favor, but when it comes to what other people are going to do with their time and money, you have no power over them.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#114 - 2016-08-18 01:52:44 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
I think the best thing I could do would be to sit on gate immediately outside the starter systems and then try to gank everything that jumps through the gate.

Get them interacting with other players in true Eve style and use that as way to help teach them what they want to know.

Not being into ganking though, maybe I could drop an alt in a starter Corp and try to get Corp chat moving. It's so quiet in NPC Corps. No wonder people leave before really trying the game. There's no interaction built in when you first start.

Unfortunately, with so many starter Corps it's difficult to get them all active.




Calling ganking PVP is like calling raep "lovemaking".

Realize that and you will stop being part of the problem.

1. Where did I call anything pvp in my post? Do you even read?
2. What problem am I part of exactly? Industrialist problem? Hauler problem?




The context of the post you were replying to. So your meaning is clear. Don't try to gaslight your way out of it.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#115 - 2016-08-18 01:58:38 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
I think the best thing I could do would be to sit on gate immediately outside the starter systems and then try to gank everything that jumps through the gate.

Get them interacting with other players in true Eve style and use that as way to help teach them what they want to know.

Not being into ganking though, maybe I could drop an alt in a starter Corp and try to get Corp chat moving. It's so quiet in NPC Corps. No wonder people leave before really trying the game. There's no interaction built in when you first start.

Unfortunately, with so many starter Corps it's difficult to get them all active.




Calling ganking PVP is like calling raep "lovemaking".

Realize that and you will stop being part of the problem.

1. Where did I call anything pvp in my post? Do you even read?
2. What problem am I part of exactly? Industrialist problem? Hauler problem?




The context of the post you were replying to. So your meaning is clear. Don't try to gaslight your way out of it.

That raises:

3. What post was I replying to?

Only the OP, which also mentions nothing about PVP.

So back to 1. and 2.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Serene Repose
#116 - 2016-08-18 02:00:29 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
...You might have a rationalization hamster just running in that little wheel in your head helping you justify everything you personally favor, but when it comes to what other people are going to do with their time and money, you have no power over them....
And this is why I just cut to the chase above and called them out for what they really are - a slim, unreasonable, vocal minority that go by the CODE; "The loudest voice in the room rules."

They have the one goal, so they'll misinterpret, mischaracterize, ignore everything said by the majority just to clamor their convoluted logic...more geared to prolong the discussion and drive it into the ground than to resolve anything....the actual resolution leaves them out.

It was pitiable to see management acquiesce and cater to these people. There is no doubt they'll pay for it dearly by the time it's all over...unfortunately, so will we. Then, this ilk will get what they want - to just destroy everyone else's fun if they can't have what they want - that is how CODE came into being; created in the background by a few WASP-ish people.

One of the most vocal people on this thread has actually stalked me via ingame mail. I had to block it.

They speak with forked tongues...and have gender identification issues as well.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#117 - 2016-08-18 02:14:11 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:

It may not be the exact same thing, but remember what this thread is about, right?

thats precisely why im pulling you up on it.
its not even remotely in the same ball park ,
is extremely disrespectful to those of us who may have sufferd or had someone close to us suffer and you know it.

this is a game ,
regardless of whatever qualifiers or context you use it is never acceptable to publicly take the **** out of someones real trauma by making that comparison and i am ashamed for us every time i see it.

Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#118 - 2016-08-18 02:15:24 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Their problem is that they try to conflate PVP with ganking, which are two different things.


Your problem is that you think PVP is exclusive to what you personally accept as PVP, which is why you're confused about the points put forward by 'gankbears' and have yet to make a substantial argument against them, and instead compare them to rapists to virtue-signal your way into a position of moral authority so as to justify out-grouping gankers, making them the bad guys who can only be wrong about everything.

Ganking is a form of PVP, just like the vast majority of activities in this game, including PVP combat and even trade.



Funny, I never "personally" accepted a definition of PVP.


And yet you consistently post with disregard for the only definition there is.

Quote:
New players probably don't have that congealed in their perception either. But I would bet their gut feeling wins in the end.


So the best solution is to pander to their 'gut feeling' instead of teach them what EVE and PVP actually are?

Quote:
Then you and the other gankbears...


There you go with that out-grouping again.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#119 - 2016-08-18 02:17:27 UTC
Quote:
... have this blame the victim mentality and again, like it or not, people in western civilization do not like that mindset and won't SUBSCRIBE to it and when they see what kind of people are already playing, they don't SUBSCRIBE.


There is no victim blaming going on. What you perceive as victim blaming is us actually teaching the victim what they did wrong, and what they can do in future to mitigate the risk to themselves. Is it blaming the victim to tell someone not to leave the keys in the front door of their house, or they're likely to get robbed? Did you know insurance companies won't pay out if you do this, because despite being a victim of a crime, you actually share some of the responsibility of making yourself a victim? Also, don't play the victim card with me, kiddo, we all know your grasp on reality isn't grippy enough for you to comprehend what a real victim is. So much was made obvious when you conflated real physical trauma with losing virtual, pixelised spaceships.

Quote:
You might have a rationalization hamster just running in that little wheel in your head helping you justify everything you personally favor, but when it comes to what other people are going to do with their time and money, you have no power over them.


The only favour I have is for impartiality and honesty. So far, you have been found wonting in both departments, especially your bias against gankers, which is why you continuously try to group people with them as the 'bad guys' so you can dismiss them as 'irrational' when they disagree with you and provide arguments that you have no counter to.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#120 - 2016-08-18 02:46:27 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
One of the most vocal people on this thread has actually stalked me via ingame mail. I had to block it.

I hope you reported that too. No matter which side of this forum fun you sit on, there are lines in the EULA none of us should cross and CCP should be made aware of them when it occurs. Even if they don't act on it at the time, the record is kept and others in the future might benefit from a report you make.

I had to report someone based on forum activity that rolled over into mail and the GMs were great.

So you don't deserve to be stalked, here, in mail or anywhere else just because you post in the forum. In any case, I hope what you did resolved the issue for you.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."