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why does it seem like CCP is castrating high sec content creators

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#601 - 2016-06-25 23:36:55 UTC
Exaido wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:

Because you can, that is why you gank is it not? Or you want targets to shoot that drop loot or you want ship kills or force people to play a certain way, seems enough there for you. I don't think its griefing, I tend to look at people trying to get at the player as erring towards griefing, but often thta is part of conflict, you want them a bit mad and stupid so they commit or make mistakes. That's why griefing is such an emotive word as it is misused by both sides.

Hisec is full of people who are avoiding conflict, such as the indy alts of 0.0 players, so what. What you want is an environment where those that stand up for themselves are rewarded, the reward you get now is yawn, another war dec by more pipe and hub campers... When I get a war dec from one of the war dec entities I immediately cannot be bothered, chance to see some GTFO ship running away, can do that in 0.0 which is more fun, bubbles and more bubbles.

And if you make it devoid of resources then even less will happen which is what these Indy structures will actually do. I have a feeling that the Indy Structures may be the death knell of hisec unless they are as cheap as hell and I don't see that. being the case...


This.

Industry is the basis of the economy in a sandbox environment. If industry is exposed to continuous open war. Prices will rise and their will be fewer industry players. If they plan to remove NPC stations, they really need to think about this carefully, and the plans we've seen for industry structures don't give me comfort.


No they wont. Worst case scenario is industrialists all move back to NPC stations and guess what, those costs are rolled into the market and things will be fine.

And unless I missed something there isn't talk of removing NPC stations. After all, NPC stations are where your stuff goes when a citadel is blown up.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Coralas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#602 - 2016-06-26 06:41:32 UTC
Exaido wrote:
When I read "content creation", I read "gang-banging defenceless targets", I don't read PVP.

I FW on an alt, that's the sole-purpose of his existence, and FW is awful. It's scarcely FW because it's neutrals, dropping into plexes with fleets and 'wrecking' those actually trying to undertake FW. The fix is pretty simple, don't allow neutrals to use acceleration gates. Require them to be in FW to enter the plexes. It won't happen.



What limited war in the history of humankind didn't have false flag combatants.

Quote:


If hi-sec PVP is to improve, it needs to be more than gang-banging soft-targets. The new indy structures don't look like they will change this, the fundamental of the economy, industrials will be their own structure with weaker defences than the already squishy Citadel. There's a slim chance that 'emergent' game play, will lead some of the PVP corporations to protect their industrial counter-parts, but enlightened self-interest in EVE is not oft seen.



The problem with highsec citadels won't be protecting them, it is that as their design is IMO inherently unlikely to generate large numbers of predators (because they are boring to kill and don't drop the loot inside them). The POS had an important shared resource (the moon), that caused fighting and ultimately limited their numbers. IMO most of highsec has been covered in a layer of citadels and that layer is going to wind up 50 deep, except for a few positions around player-formed resources like trade hubs, where a powerful owner might kill competitors.

An unfueled pos offers value to a solo attacker, so long as they can dec the owner (in highsec), and to anyone in lowsec, which means they offer more realistic chances of being predated, and lots of moon positions were inherently valuable because of the total moon limits. Afaik there was even people that were able to suicide attack things like labs.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#603 - 2016-06-26 08:13:49 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


No I am suggesting that they can pull the medium structures within 24 hours of a war dec so they have in effect what they have now.

[snip]


Why? Just because it fits with the status quo is pretty weak justification.



No, because hisec is already penalised against in terms of manufacturing, another hit is likely to be mortal.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#604 - 2016-06-26 08:27:10 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Quote:


No I am suggesting that they can pull the medium structures within 24 hours of a war dec so they have in effect what they have now. This maintains the current level of balance which I believe is important. But the L and XL cannot be taken down within 24 hours but have better rewards, this means that you get a reward for being able to defend it or more risk.

The issue here is that the change will be too brutal, its a massive shock to the current structure of hisec in terms of those people being able to compete. Though I do have understanding of your point, because I want hisec to become more dynamic but I am focusing on the prey in hisec who could become a bit more then just people avoiding war decs, but killing hisec is not a good idea. You do recognise that hisec is effectively dead for any real meaningful combat, it is on life support basically.

It is likely when the anchoring of POS's and taking them down and the avoidance of war decs was not in the original game design, and yes CCP could just make it the same as a Citadel, 7 days. But I know that will be too heavy a blow to many people, CCP have to be careful here...

Even from me.i like citadel being stuck.to face a warden.
The problem is not the inability.to avoid a Dec. The problem. Is the lack of defence/force multiplier on most citadel. Especially all sizes in high sec. Compared to a pos they are massively merged due to the critical reduction in the number of targets that can be engaged and the crippling lack of cap on the M citadel plus the ease of capping one out to disable all its wear.
This means it is too easy to take one down with even a slight numerical advantage as its pretty much just fleet vs fleet. With no significant advantage to the home ground structure owner. Especially in the environment of.high sec with all the rest of the meta.
The fall back should be npc. Stations which should be far less common in high sec for player access to provide more value to citadels.

Ps
To previous poster
High sec normally has more total value destroyed per month than null. We can argue over the Vale of that content. But let's not pretend nothing happens in high sec.


The thing is that the ISK value is an incorrect metric to use, yes hisec has more ISK value taken down, its because of Freighter ganks, some being taken down with a Fortizar i it along with their rigs and modules. They are major hits around 27bn in value. But it is one gank and not really fun engaging content for both sides.

I do not have experience of defending a Citadel, but I have read peoples posts who have attacked and defended them and I would reply that if the hisec entities were actually not cowering in one men corps and the like, the force multiplier would be used, but their defences are weak and in affect their only real defence is boredom of attacking them and the sheer number of them in space. It is possible that the same inertia will happen in terms of the indy structures.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Black Pedro
Mine.
#605 - 2016-06-26 08:30:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


No I am suggesting that they can pull the medium structures within 24 hours of a war dec so they have in effect what they have now.

[snip]


Why? Just because it fits with the status quo is pretty weak justification.



No, because hisec is already penalised against in terms of manufacturing, another hit is likely to be mortal.

Dracvlad, the vast majority of things (85%+) in the game are produced in the largely highsec regions of The Forge, Lonetrek, The Citadel, and Domain: http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70343/1/4_production.value.by.region.png


There is no danger of some sort of "mortal blow" that will kill highsec industry. If anything, CCP needs to ramp up the incentives outside of highsec to encourage a more even distribution of industry across the universe.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#606 - 2016-06-26 08:53:01 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


No I am suggesting that they can pull the medium structures within 24 hours of a war dec so they have in effect what they have now.

[snip]


Why? Just because it fits with the status quo is pretty weak justification.



No, because hisec is already penalised against in terms of manufacturing, another hit is likely to be mortal.

Dracvlad, the vast majority of things (85%+) in the game are produced in the largely highsec regions of The Forge, Lonetrek, The Citadel, and Domain: http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70343/1/4_production.value.by.region.png


There is no danger of some sort of "mortal blow" that will kill highsec industry. If anything, CCP needs to ramp up the incentives outside of highsec to encourage a more even distribution of industry across the universe.

Don't bring facts into this.

Thinking something makes it true. Evidence is just inconvenient.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#607 - 2016-06-26 09:11:19 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


No I am suggesting that they can pull the medium structures within 24 hours of a war dec so they have in effect what they have now.

[snip]


Why? Just because it fits with the status quo is pretty weak justification.



No, because hisec is already penalised against in terms of manufacturing, another hit is likely to be mortal.

Dracvlad, the vast majority of things (85%+) in the game are produced in the largely highsec regions of The Forge, Lonetrek, The Citadel, and Domain: http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70343/1/4_production.value.by.region.png


There is no danger of some sort of "mortal blow" that will kill highsec industry. If anything, CCP needs to ramp up the incentives outside of highsec to encourage a more even distribution of industry across the universe.


Fair point, however I did notice a fall off in manufacturing in hisec and hisec is made up of a lot of solo manufacturers, the impact on them from the loss of a POS could be huge. Probably will be OK, but I am not certain and I have a lingering fear it might be a body blow to some, time will tell. I have noted a couple of what I call very focused hisec manufacturers who are not cry babies expressing dismay at the coming loss of the POS.

All in all I am in favour of null sec having improved industry but not at the expense of hisec and want to see null sec entities developing their own markets, though I think that the range of the JF needs to be nerfed to balance off against other advantages.

Shae , Roll

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Chopper Rollins
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#608 - 2016-06-26 09:17:04 UTC
Exaido wrote:
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
What you want is an environment where those that stand up for themselves are rewarded

They can fight back (bad move), move far away (minor inconvenience) or log off. Getting assistance or dropping corp are options, but 'standing up for yourself' is so vague a plan that it might often involve horrifying losses."


That sounds like an amazing game: EVE Online S&M release. Pay your $15 a month, be subordinate, and your ultimate defence is not to play?


I notice you didn't have 'get out of hisec' as an option there.
If you want to enjoy resources and access to them you must be powerful enough to hold them and repel competitors, or be subordinate, bend the knee and kiss the ring. And still get treated very badly. Because being weak but claiming moral superiority means nothing.
Nothing.
Get out of hisec.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#609 - 2016-06-26 10:36:52 UTC
Exaido wrote:


This.

Industry is the basis of the economy in a sandbox environment. If industry is exposed to continuous open war. Prices will rise and their will be fewer industry players.


Which means higher rewards for the industry players who get on with it.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#610 - 2016-06-26 11:12:51 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:

Don't bring facts into this.

Thinking something makes it true. Evidence is just inconvenient.

Just because the majority happens in high sec doesn't mean it's not penalized. Industry has a lot of inertia . And a lot of people will still do things at a slight penalty. But too much and it crumples.
Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#611 - 2016-06-26 12:17:47 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:

Dracvlad, the vast majority of things (85%+) in the game are produced in the largely highsec regions of The Forge, Lonetrek, The Citadel, and Domain: http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70343/1/4_production.value.by.region.png


There is no danger of some sort of "mortal blow" that will kill highsec industry. If anything, CCP needs to ramp up the incentives outside of highsec to encourage a more even distribution of industry across the universe.

Industry outside of high is bound to PVP alliances. There is no place for solo players. You need an alliance that is capable to get a freighter through and to defend your part of space. So in the end you are forcing people to play the game the way YOU want it. Mining in in low is dead. In the end the way eve is played outside of High is highly destructive to long term planning needed for industry. Apart from not having access to a good trade hub.
Simply accept the fact that high is the industrial base for EVE while low/Null are the places to blow up the ships that are build in High. In a way High IS creating the main contend for EVE: ships and modules.
Gostina Mishina
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#612 - 2016-06-26 12:48:17 UTC
Bexol Regyri wrote:
I have only been playing eve for about 5 months and started out a high sec miner....One of the things I found out right away was about 1/2 the players in space were not engaged in the game. There would be an ice belt with 30 people in it, but no one was really there. Their ships just mining away while they did stuff in real life. I almost fell into the same trap but then I met the pirates, as I later found out where called gankers in this game, mercs and griefers. At first I was like these guys are jerks to put it nicely. The more I watched them blow up people the more I realized they are forcing people to stay engaged in the game....

If you really want to force other people around you to play the game in exactly the way you play, and to do it on your schedule, you could try out lowsec or even nullsec. You might not like it much, because people who have been playing longer than you have will outnumber you, and they'll of course have their own ideas about exactly how you should be playing, with whom, and where and when.

An alternative is to stop worrying about other players who are simply supplying the minerals that make everything you do in the game possible at the low prices you currently enjoy.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#613 - 2016-06-26 12:56:26 UTC
Geronimo McVain wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:

Dracvlad, the vast majority of things (85%+) in the game are produced in the largely highsec regions of The Forge, Lonetrek, The Citadel, and Domain: http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70343/1/4_production.value.by.region.png


There is no danger of some sort of "mortal blow" that will kill highsec industry. If anything, CCP needs to ramp up the incentives outside of highsec to encourage a more even distribution of industry across the universe.

Industry outside of high is bound to PVP alliances. There is no place for solo players. You need an alliance that is capable to get a freighter through and to defend your part of space. So in the end you are forcing people to play the game the way YOU want it. Mining in in low is dead. In the end the way eve is played outside of High is highly destructive to long term planning needed for industry. Apart from not having access to a good trade hub.
Simply accept the fact that high is the industrial base for EVE while low/Null are the places to blow up the ships that are build in High. In a way High IS creating the main contend for EVE: ships and modules.

Seems like things are changing though. The new structures will require industrialists to defend their stuff for once. No longer will being a solo industrialist be the most efficient way to make things, or at least won't be without risk. The era of abusing CONCORD to protect your industrial operations is coming to an end.

I'm still not convinced there will be much reason to attack industrialists, but at least now you can in theory. Let's give CCP credit for a small step in the right direction. Hopefully meaningful competition will result from this and there will be pressure for industrialists to organize for efficiency and defense, and if not, that CCP keeps working towards creating actual gameplay in highsec.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#614 - 2016-06-26 14:59:43 UTC
Gostina Mishina wrote:
Bexol Regyri wrote:
I have only been playing eve for about 5 months and started out a high sec miner....One of the things I found out right away was about 1/2 the players in space were not engaged in the game. There would be an ice belt with 30 people in it, but no one was really there. Their ships just mining away while they did stuff in real life. I almost fell into the same trap but then I met the pirates, as I later found out where called gankers in this game, mercs and griefers. At first I was like these guys are jerks to put it nicely. The more I watched them blow up people the more I realized they are forcing people to stay engaged in the game....

If you really want to force other people around you to play the game in exactly the way you play, and to do it on your schedule, you could try out lowsec or even nullsec. You might not like it much, because people who have been playing longer than you have will outnumber you, and they'll of course have their own ideas about exactly how you should be playing, with whom, and where and when.

An alternative is to stop worrying about other players who are simply supplying the minerals that make everything you do in the game possible at the low prices you currently enjoy.


OR third option, continue to inflict proper EVE gameplay on highsec carebears.

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
aldhura
Blackjack and Exotic Dancers
Top Tier
#615 - 2016-06-26 19:38:35 UTC
Galaxy Pig wrote:
Gostina Mishina wrote:
Bexol Regyri wrote:
I have only been playing eve for about 5 months and started out a high sec miner....One of the things I found out right away was about 1/2 the players in space were not engaged in the game. There would be an ice belt with 30 people in it, but no one was really there. Their ships just mining away while they did stuff in real life. I almost fell into the same trap but then I met the pirates, as I later found out where called gankers in this game, mercs and griefers. At first I was like these guys are jerks to put it nicely. The more I watched them blow up people the more I realized they are forcing people to stay engaged in the game....

If you really want to force other people around you to play the game in exactly the way you play, and to do it on your schedule, you could try out lowsec or even nullsec. You might not like it much, because people who have been playing longer than you have will outnumber you, and they'll of course have their own ideas about exactly how you should be playing, with whom, and where and when.

An alternative is to stop worrying about other players who are simply supplying the minerals that make everything you do in the game possible at the low prices you currently enjoy.


OR third option, continue to inflict proper EVE gameplay on highsec carebears.


Curious to know who your main is and what he does ?? or are you just super rich in RL and buy plex to support your gameplay ??
Not everyone who plays EVE wants to PVP 24x7. The PVP Sandbox is what keeps the player base low. If everyone pvp'ed, code would have nothing to do and no ships to do it in...
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#616 - 2016-06-26 20:00:42 UTC
aldhura wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
Gostina Mishina wrote:
Bexol Regyri wrote:
I have only been playing eve for about 5 months and started out a high sec miner....One of the things I found out right away was about 1/2 the players in space were not engaged in the game. There would be an ice belt with 30 people in it, but no one was really there. Their ships just mining away while they did stuff in real life. I almost fell into the same trap but then I met the pirates, as I later found out where called gankers in this game, mercs and griefers. At first I was like these guys are jerks to put it nicely. The more I watched them blow up people the more I realized they are forcing people to stay engaged in the game....

If you really want to force other people around you to play the game in exactly the way you play, and to do it on your schedule, you could try out lowsec or even nullsec. You might not like it much, because people who have been playing longer than you have will outnumber you, and they'll of course have their own ideas about exactly how you should be playing, with whom, and where and when.

An alternative is to stop worrying about other players who are simply supplying the minerals that make everything you do in the game possible at the low prices you currently enjoy.


OR third option, continue to inflict proper EVE gameplay on highsec carebears.


Curious to know who your main is and what he does ?? or are you just super rich in RL and buy plex to support your gameplay ??
Not everyone who plays EVE wants to PVP 24x7. The PVP Sandbox is what keeps the player base low. If everyone pvp'ed, code would have nothing to do and no ships to do it in...

Missing the point.

Its not about making people pvp all of the time, its about ensuring that you cant just pve all of the time.
A 100% safe highsec is bad for the game.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Robertina Palazzo
#617 - 2016-06-26 20:19:01 UTC
hisec content creation aka people who cannot pvp without fighting something they know for a fact cannot get help or fight back in time?

Or hisec content creation that organizes wars (economically and pvp) that do more than sit outside jita iv for 20 hours a day?

i still laugh at "content creation" being used only by people to justify abusing mechanics for their own edge.
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#618 - 2016-06-26 20:28:18 UTC
aldhura wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
Gostina Mishina wrote:
Bexol Regyri wrote:
I have only been playing eve for about 5 months and started out a high sec miner....One of the things I found out right away was about 1/2 the players in space were not engaged in the game. There would be an ice belt with 30 people in it, but no one was really there. Their ships just mining away while they did stuff in real life. I almost fell into the same trap but then I met the pirates, as I later found out where called gankers in this game, mercs and griefers. At first I was like these guys are jerks to put it nicely. The more I watched them blow up people the more I realized they are forcing people to stay engaged in the game....

If you really want to force other people around you to play the game in exactly the way you play, and to do it on your schedule, you could try out lowsec or even nullsec. You might not like it much, because people who have been playing longer than you have will outnumber you, and they'll of course have their own ideas about exactly how you should be playing, with whom, and where and when.

An alternative is to stop worrying about other players who are simply supplying the minerals that make everything you do in the game possible at the low prices you currently enjoy.


OR third option, continue to inflict proper EVE gameplay on highsec carebears.


Curious to know who your main is and what he does ?? or are you just super rich in RL and buy plex to support your gameplay ??
Not everyone who plays EVE wants to PVP 24x7. The PVP Sandbox is what keeps the player base low. If everyone pvp'ed, code would have nothing to do and no ships to do it in...


Thank you for showing an interest in me! :D

You're talking to my main and I gank carebears. That's what I do. I'm a strong believer in specialization in this game. The modest income I get comes entirely from looting ganked ships, mostly retrievers. I don't have any alts in any other professions, all they do is facilitate what my main does, kill carebears.

I am far from super rich in RL but do on the rare occasion buy a plex. Most of my ganks result in a net-loss so my gameplay is subsidized by New Order Shareholders who fund our SRP.

You're right about the PvP sandbox being too much for a lot of people and keeping the playerbase low, this is actually a good thing and is working as intended. We EVE players don't want the place overrun with WoW players.

If everyone PVPed, PVE would become crazy lucrative and trust me, there woluld be someone there to rake in the cash. You spin these crazy, impossible, hypotheticals because you overvalue the contribution of highsec carebears to New Eden as a whole.

I don't knock PVEers, I'm just not one. I shoot them.

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#619 - 2016-06-26 20:38:11 UTC
Robertina Palazzo wrote:
hisec content creation aka people who cannot pvp without fighting something they know for a fact cannot get help or fight back in time?

Or hisec content creation that organizes wars (economically and pvp) that do more than sit outside jita iv for 20 hours a day?

i still laugh at "content creation" being used only by people to justify abusing mechanics for their own edge.



Ha! Yeah, like the other day, I was moving in on this mackinaw, he seemed all alone, I knew for a FACT that he couldn't possibly get help or fight back in time. Was gonna be such a sweet kill, modulated strip miners, the whole works. Iand on top of him, perfect range! Open fire, get him halway through armor and then...

lose my target lock... What?

a wild falcon appeared and jammed me good. I lost my ship, he survived and even profited off of my loot.

It was almost like he anticipated me and took steps to protect himself, I know, weird right?

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
#620 - 2016-06-27 06:01:34 UTC
Galaxy Pig wrote:
Robertina Palazzo wrote:
hisec content creation aka people who cannot pvp without fighting something they know for a fact cannot get help or fight back in time?

Or hisec content creation that organizes wars (economically and pvp) that do more than sit outside jita iv for 20 hours a day?

i still laugh at "content creation" being used only by people to justify abusing mechanics for their own edge.



Ha! Yeah, like the other day, I was moving in on this mackinaw, he seemed all alone, I knew for a FACT that he couldn't possibly get help or fight back in time. Was gonna be such a sweet kill, modulated strip miners, the whole works. Iand on top of him, perfect range! Open fire, get him halway through armor and then...

lose my target lock... What?

a wild falcon appeared and jammed me good. I lost my ship, he survived and even profited off of my loot.

It was almost like he anticipated me and took steps to protect himself, I know, weird right?


Somewhat off topic, i know.

This is what I am talking about. The mackinaw and falcon pilots knew what galaxy pig was going to do and were able to destroy his ship. Brilliant gameplay, no complaining or asking for anything to be changed they used whatever means currently in the game to protect themselves and it paid off.

Can't someone create a miners protection corp and just keep doing this? You can make a huge difference to the game by getting organised and having a goal which people wlll support. By working as a team this one post shows that it is reasonably easy stopping CODE.

Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie