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Dev blog: DirectX 9 Phase Out

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Benjan Hakaari
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2016-06-01 22:17:24 UTC
I play EVE for the fun of the game and for the social interaction. I don't play it for fancy graphics and "clouds." When I hear people call EVE "spreadsheets in space" I chuckle, but then I realize i could play the game that way and still enjoy it. Although it's great fun to see a POS explode grandly, I still would enjoy the game if the graphics were cheesy and cartoony, like from WAY back...

Please don't leave out us folks who need DX9, no matter what our platform.
Chan'aar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2016-06-01 22:41:00 UTC
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
>we will be removing clouds from the DirectX 9 client in an upcoming release.

You guys should make a separate DX9 client and charge money for it. I would pay premium for no cloudsRoll


This oh so much THIS!
Dominous Nolen
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#43 - 2016-06-01 23:09:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominous Nolen
CCP Vertex wrote:
Dominous Nolen wrote:
Drabbin Mishi wrote:
I believe that the Overwolf overlay does not support EVE with DX11, only DX9.


I've had weird flickering issues with it in Dx11, so I just gave up on it.


Please switch back and file a bug report so we can get your logs, then reply here the reportID so we can take a look.


I'll try it again and file a bug report if I can get the client to stay stable enough to let me while it potentally drives my eyes nuts.

@dominousnolen

"Fly dangerously, Fly safe, Fly whatever, just keep Flying." - Lee Blackwood
CCP Vertex
C C P
C C P Alliance
#44 - 2016-06-01 23:13:52 UTC
Arrek Lemmont wrote:
EVE itself runs fine for me with DirectX11 but the Mumble overlay won't, so I have to play EVE in DirectX9.

Is CCP working with the Mumble developers to sort out what's going on with Mumble and EVE and DX11?


I'm afraid this would be on the Mumble developers, we dont officialy support Mumble integration and I would recommend you file a bug report on their GitHub project.

**CCP Vertex  |  Senior Development Manager ** | @CCP_Vertex
CCP Vertex
C C P
C C P Alliance
#45 - 2016-06-01 23:15:17 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
CCP Vertex wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
"We would like to assure the Mac community that we are aware that the current client is DirectX 9 only. This is something we have been discussing internally and we are investigating solutions."

Care to supply more details?


I'm afraid we have nothing further to share currently. We are just increasing the messaging around Direct 9 deprecation to give people time to migrate.


What do you mean "migrate"? I know from before my move to Linux that the hardware does run dx11 just fine with all the fancy shield bubble and hit effects.

Just the software wasn't able to catch up. Vulcan on the other hand will even run on my new cellphone.



I'm specifically referring to people who can upgrade either their OS or GPU to become DX11 capable.

**CCP Vertex  |  Senior Development Manager ** | @CCP_Vertex
CCP Vertex
C C P
C C P Alliance
#46 - 2016-06-01 23:19:09 UTC
Dierdra Vaal wrote:
Different from the people worrying about DX9 support, my question is: is CCP currently exploring DX12 support?


DX12 / Vulkan / OpenGL etc. are all things we've looked at and considered, migrating to a different API is no small undertaking and is something we would consider at length before investing considerable resources into.

**CCP Vertex  |  Senior Development Manager ** | @CCP_Vertex
CCP Vertex
C C P
C C P Alliance
#47 - 2016-06-01 23:20:49 UTC
Tiranius Avetus wrote:
CCP someone, does this means we can finally have tessellation?


It's one step closer to that possability! ;)

**CCP Vertex  |  Senior Development Manager ** | @CCP_Vertex
CCP Vertex
C C P
C C P Alliance
#48 - 2016-06-01 23:24:48 UTC
Dominous Nolen wrote:
CCP Vertex wrote:
Dominous Nolen wrote:
Drabbin Mishi wrote:
I believe that the Overwolf overlay does not support EVE with DX11, only DX9.


I've had weird flickering issues with it in Dx11, so I just gave up on it.


Please switch back and file a bug report so we can get your logs, then reply here the reportID so we can take a look.


I'll try it again and file a bug report if I can get the client to stay stable enough to let me while it potentally drives my eyes nuts.


Please make sure to update to the latest GPU drivers and thank you for giving it a go, I will make sure we take a look at the bug report.

**CCP Vertex  |  Senior Development Manager ** | @CCP_Vertex
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#49 - 2016-06-01 23:42:20 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
'giving away' the OS means that they don't have to worry about another XP, where it's the primary OS in use for years past the point they want to support it. Supporting products costs them money. Fewer supported products means they have lower costs.


It's still paid for, when you buy a new PC. The number of people who actually buy OS upgrades is low.

I'll agree with you... to a point. It used to be that I paid (an OEM-reduced price) for my OS when I bought the computer, whether it be from IBM itself (dad loved the clicky keyboard, and clones disappointed), Gateway (back in my college days), Dell (in my current corporate life), or whatever. The OS I got was the OS I got, and I didn't expect to be fed updates for years afterwards, but then again, there was no internet back then, either. If I wanted a new OS, I had to go out and buy it. Same for when I began building my own computers instead of buying them... pay for the OS, and that's the OS I got.

That's the way it's always been, until now. Somewhere along the way, Microsoft decided to offer for free (but nothing's ever free... just look at the advertisements in the default start panel if you disagree, and the "telemetry" being fed back to the mother ship that Microsoft won't explicitly describe the contents of) their flagship OS. Ok, great. Deprecate XP, sure. Seriously, it *IS* dated, and who knows what other root-level bugs are yet to be found in it. But why not Vista? Everybody certainly seems to hate it enough (though I've never had an issue with it once OEMs got their drivers sorted) to justify making that part of the upgrade, and Ballmer himself said Win7 was the polish that Vista didn't have time for.

I would agree that very few people buy an OS upgrade without a compelling reason, but that's just it... as far as I've seen so far, there is no compelling reason to switch from Win7 (or even Vista, if you have it) to Win10. In fact, the only jumps I would say were worthwhile were DOS/3.1 > 95 (native graphical OS) > 98b (USB integration) > XP (9x/NT unification). After XP, it becomes a bit more murky, since Vista added x64 (don't get me started on XP x64... I ran it and hated every moment of it), 7 was the spit and polish, and 8 added USB3.

CCP Vertex wrote:
DX12 / Vulkan / OpenGL etc. are all things we've looked at and considered, migrating to a different API is no small undertaking and is something we would consider at length before investing considerable resources into.

No bigger than the jump from the original graphics engine to Trinity2... ohh do I remember that, and my friends going "HOLY $#!7!!!" when I showed them that trailer. Maybe something to shoot for in 2020, when DX11 just doesn't look so great anymore? ;)
Dominous Nolen
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#50 - 2016-06-01 23:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominous Nolen
CCP Vertex wrote:

Please make sure to update to the latest GPU drivers and thank you for giving it a go, I will make sure we take a look at the bug report.


Drivers are kept current.

So, Overwolf doesn't even really play well with my 3x27" display config. The tool loads, attempts to associate to a monitor but then never presents itself for chats, TS voice notifications etc while in game. It seems to stick to the launcher (and operates only in windows but not in game) and not the actual running client. This is part of the reason why I was looking for alternatives.

The stuttering/crashing appears to have subsided, but its just not functional with a fixed window configuration (same thing with Shadowplay TBH)

Alot of my corp mates just uninstalled the client.

@dominousnolen

"Fly dangerously, Fly safe, Fly whatever, just keep Flying." - Lee Blackwood
Matuk Grymwal
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#51 - 2016-06-02 00:53:36 UTC
Ixildor III wrote:
This is great! Except that DX11 is currently unusable for me due to constant crashes. I have a support ticket open about it (#196433) and there have been unanswered posts in the forums reporting similar symptoms.

I've been using DX9 as a work around for this problem as well. After I did a little more reading I found this thread which suggested turning off missile effects: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=447757 I'll give this a go and see if it helps.
Nimbo Slice
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#52 - 2016-06-02 02:01:52 UTC
Can we do something about the whole Dx11/Mumble overlay not working together before we roll this out.
KanashiiKami
#53 - 2016-06-02 02:10:10 UTC
i DO NOT like the idea of CCP dropping DX9

WUT ???
I-Am-Not An-Alt
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#54 - 2016-06-02 02:46:20 UTC
GUYSE

Its ignorant to think that CCP doesnt already have the statistics of what % of the player population runs DX9, and before posting something like this they have already accepted the fact that by doing this they will lose subs, but not enough to stop them from doing it.

Im sorry if your still on DX9 (Not being a smart ass) But maybe its time to upgrade... as said your running on 10 year old API.. time to move on. And dont be a hipster.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#55 - 2016-06-02 02:55:19 UTC
When is the new EVE probe hitting forums?

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
Sky Marshal
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2016-06-02 03:50:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Sky Marshal
As long we don't need to go to W10 for the moment, it is rather fine... I would go on W10 if only it don't suffer of the same deficiency than Eve Online : the deletion of the full UI color customization (replaced by "themes") and so the reduction of his accessibility. While Eve is too dark, W10 is too bright (white background in nearly all applications, like in Explorer for exemple) and so hurt the eyes after a while... Of course, W7 has the necessary options and so don't have this problem, even W1.0 released in 1985 was capable of that... I don't "get" Microsoft since W8/W10.

I want to switch on a Linux distribution one day and so I hope that CCP will offer a way to still play at Eve, or maybe WINE will begin to support DX11 games. Clearly, Vulkain in EVE would be the best choice as it would make Eve closer of becoming a multi-OS game one day, but adapt a 3D engine is certainly a very, very big effort. I can't really imagine the effort required for that. And it would be only the 3D engine while DX11 manage input & sound too...
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#57 - 2016-06-02 05:41:55 UTC
Sky Marshal wrote:
As long we don't need to go to W10 for the moment, it is rather fine... I would go on W10 if only it don't suffer of the same deficiency than Eve Online : the deletion of the full UI color customization (replaced by "themes") and so the reduction of his accessibility. While Eve is too dark, W10 is too bright (white background in nearly all applications, like in Explorer for exemple) and so hurt the eyes after a while... Of course, W7 has the necessary options and so don't have this problem, even W1.0 released in 1985 was capable of that... I don't "get" Microsoft since W8/W10.

I want to switch on a Linux distribution one day and so I hope that CCP will offer a way to still play at Eve, or maybe WINE will begin to support DX11 games. Clearly, Vulkain in EVE would be the best choice as it would make Eve closer of becoming a multi-OS game one day, but adapt a 3D engine is certainly a very, very big effort. I can't really imagine the effort required for that. And it would be only the 3D engine while DX11 manage input & sound too...


I can tell you directly from wineHQ that they are working on that tesselation thing and wine 1.9.10 is getting close. A little bit is supported and I could even run that Heaven benchmark on my Acer laptop with Intel's intergated gpu just fine - tesselation and all.
Just EVE doesn't do MESA yet. The hardware does.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#58 - 2016-06-02 05:51:29 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
...It's still paid for, when you buy a new PC. The number of people who actually buy OS upgrades is low.


That is only the case when you buy an OEM machine. I don't. I know my stuff and I am fiddling in my machine since age 14.

Thing is, when you buy your components like that M$ won't give you a "free" license, they still want you to pay 130$ for the worst ever operation system.

Linux isn't "free" either. They live from sponsors and donations. It is sad that programmers won't take Linux serious enough because openGL / Vulkan is way superior to dx11 or dx12 and it does run on all future devices for decades to come.

The joke is on M$.


You may even be surprised that Intel is one of the largest contributers for the kernel development. They pay them to make the newest hardware work out of the box.

Though it took 6 months for the kernel to support my Braswell machine and some fiddling with binaries to get the wifi to work. But enough tech babble.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#59 - 2016-06-02 07:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
My primary OS is currently Windows Server 2012 R2 which supports DX 11.2
My secondary OS is Windows Server 2003 which only supports DX 9.0c.

I also have few linux machines that only do DX9.



Why am i using Server 2012 / server windows ? because it doesn't bother me with stupid Windows 10 updates at all and it's 10000x faster than normal client windows and it has no limits of client windows.
Cool

Also as of now i am using the same operating system as Tranquility Tech III is.
Cool

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U87-vhjrYF4
CCP Vertex
C C P
C C P Alliance
#60 - 2016-06-02 09:02:00 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Vertex
Atum wrote:
No bigger than the jump from the original graphics engine to Trinity2... ohh do I remember that, and my friends going "HOLY $#!7!!!" when I showed them that trailer. Maybe something to shoot for in 2020, when DX11 just doesn't look so great anymore? ;)


Well in many cases it would be a bigger jump, especially with DX12 where you certainly get more control over your output but nothing comes for free. You need to implement and manage everything your self which has its benefits but also requires a lot of investment in resources and effort.

However, as we've done in the past and will continue to do, we will keep EVE looking good so we'll inevitably upgrade away from DX11. Maybe 2020, who knows ;)

**CCP Vertex  |  Senior Development Manager ** | @CCP_Vertex