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Old Camera To Be Retired With The 118.5 Release On May 31st!

First post
Author
Erebus 'TheChin' Sundance
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2016-05-19 11:13:40 UTC
I brought this over from the march release new camera feedback topic.

Erebus 'TheChin' Sundance wrote:
Orbit camera: It is still missing two important features for me, the 'look about' while holding left mouse button, and the ability to zoom in by holding the right MB and moving the mouse forward/backwards.

this dude made a vid,
Simple list here:

- Bring back the ability to use right click to pivot the camera on its own axis and do extreme zooming when using the orbit camera (Sorry for the really old vid but you get the idea :D)
- I'd LOVE for the ability for the same to work on the FP camera so I can look around without changing course of the ship.

need a toggle for 'c', having to press it each time is pony.

that led to this...
Erebus 'TheChin' Sundance wrote:
CCP Turtlepower wrote:

Lapuna Nejilii
The other camera rotation. With the old camera, you can look around with the right click, it was a good thing that is missing with the new one.
AttentionWe will be adding this to the new camera soon.Attention

CCP Turtlepower

Awesomeness, will it also have the zoom ability while holding the left mouse button down too? ...Pretty please, with cherry's and stuff on.
cheers

Answered with this...
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
Erebus 'TheChin' Sundance wrote:
Awesomeness, will it also have the zoom ability while holding the left mouse button down too? ...Pretty please, with cherry's and stuff on.

Yup!

CCP Turtlepower


Is this feature still being introduced at some point?
MarkeeDragon
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#42 - 2016-05-19 11:45:31 UTC
I have played with the new camera on the test server. I can't tell you how frustrated I am with it. I want to have a primary focus of my ship with a secondary focus on what I am targeting. I want to see both at the same time. So it is an offset. There is the dynamic offset. That actually works pretty good as long as you don't want to see your ship up close. I want the offset along with making my ship take a quarter of the screen. With the current dynamic my ship at biggest is 5% of the screen.

Here is an example of my frustration with the new camera. Then here is what I want the camera to do. This is the old camera. At about 48:00 in the video you see warping that it tracks the gate I came from. My ship goes off the screen but it does come back on in a nice flow. 48:00 through 50:30 shows a nice focus on both my ship and whatever I have clicked on in the overview. This also shows the tracking of a rat where it just flows nicely and is a pleasure to look at. This is the functionality that I very much appreciate in the old camera that just just not available in the new one. The closest I can get is either not to see my ship in any detail or to have the subject of focus right behind my ship.

It feels like you are 95% of the way there. But in this instance you need higher than 95%. An example of why the last 5% is important. Say you buy a new car and they deliver it to you 95% finished. At 95% it could be that only one wheel is missing. Will it drive? maybe. Will it drive well. No. Were you delivered the car you ordered? Yes. Just minus a wheel. Would you accept delivery of your car without one wheel?

I don't know why I feel so strongly about this. Maybe it's because I love EVE. The new camera. If forced on us in the shape it is a downgrade of the game. In effect you will have stolen one of my wheels and with a wheel missing I have no desire to drive.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#43 - 2016-05-19 12:23:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
See, my complaints are far simpler than markeedragons. I have no idea how anyone could pvp with any level of situational awareness when using any of the new camera features as markee does. But each to their own.

I simply want to be able to pan up and down at the same sensitivity as i pan left and right. And a way to adjust the 'sponginess'/speed of the zoom would be nice.

For me personally, all the new features can be turned off to give, for other facets of the camera, the old camera 'feel' beyond these very simple issues.

I understand their design decision, they decided that there is only 179° on the vertical axis so that doesnt need to be as fast as the horizontal axis where there is potentially unlimited ° since you could spin your ship.

This is a fallacious line of reasoning.

The only ° i care about in 99% of cases are the 135° from the direction my ship is pointing on either the x or y axis. If i have to make a turn sharper than that i have done something drastically wrong (or my targets did something right) and will cost myself a lot of speed.

With the new camera, i have to move my cursor 15cm across my screen to look from 0-180° on the vertical axis, and only 7cm to turn the camera 180° on the horizontal axis.

I want access to those 135° that i use to manoeuvre on the horizontal and vertical axis at an equal sensitivity so there is a consistent 'feel', and i dont feel like the camera is trying to fight me panning up and down.
Yogsoloth
Did he say Jump
#44 - 2016-05-19 13:36:48 UTC
And CCP wonders why their game is dying.

You just never learn, this "my way or the highway attitude" is tired and old, I find myself wondering more often than not, why do I still maintain multiple subscriptions.

Monocle gate, WIS, Camera's etc etc etc. The list could go on forever.

The bold faced lies used to bolster their decisions are also infuriating. Including inactive or unused characters and accounts is dishonest. I did an informal survey in my local system of about 30 active players, I couldn't find 1 person using the new camera. In fact when I shared the most recent devblog that they'll be forced into it soon all it did was inspire rage and anger. Most of those people tried to convince me that I was wrong, and that there was no way they would be forcing this on us. Furthermore I couldn't find a single person within said group that had anything positive to say about the new camera.

I understand people put alot of effort into making these changes and as a result you feel the NEED to use it to justify the effort, but that's not a good enough reason. Just because you poured money time and effort into this doesn't mean it's good and or should be used. Smart developers scrap poor changes, games and titles all the time. (WOD)

I'm not gonna rehash all the issues listed above, but I'll add a new one to the list that I didn't see listed yet. Auto tracking and panning afterwards. So if you set auto track, and track anything, doesn't matter what, let your camera settle and then try to pan around and look at something else. Now your camera has to refocus on your ship, the camera has to "settle" down again before it zooms in slightly again and lets you pan around. Zoom in, zoom out, zoom in, zoom out, stupid camera can't do anything in a single smooth motion, or in a timely manner. My fault for wanting situational awareness I guess.

Fortunately, Stellaris is out and it looks like most of my corp has already made the move over. I'm one of the last holdouts but I doubt I make it much longer after the camera change. GG CCP.
Josef Djugashvilis
#45 - 2016-05-19 13:59:51 UTC
Falcon and his 5.5%

Is this the same Falcon who claimed overwhelming support in the forums for cash for skills?

Perhaps his 5.5% user base was calculated by assuming that the 94.5% support for the new camera system is from mostly inactive, expired or unused accounts.

Dear Falcon, you should apply for a job at the Ministry of Truth, they need your special skills :)

This is not a signature.

CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#46 - 2016-05-19 15:37:54 UTC
Erebus 'TheChin' Sundance wrote:
I brought this over from the march release new camera feedback topic.

Erebus 'TheChin' Sundance wrote:
Orbit camera: It is still missing two important features for me, the 'look about' while holding left mouse button, and the ability to zoom in by holding the right MB and moving the mouse forward/backwards.

this dude made a vid,
Simple list here:

- Bring back the ability to use right click to pivot the camera on its own axis and do extreme zooming when using the orbit camera (Sorry for the really old vid but you get the idea :D)
- I'd LOVE for the ability for the same to work on the FP camera so I can look around without changing course of the ship.

need a toggle for 'c', having to press it each time is pony.

that led to this...
Erebus 'TheChin' Sundance wrote:
CCP Turtlepower wrote:

Lapuna Nejilii
The other camera rotation. With the old camera, you can look around with the right click, it was a good thing that is missing with the new one.
AttentionWe will be adding this to the new camera soon.Attention

CCP Turtlepower

Awesomeness, will it also have the zoom ability while holding the left mouse button down too? ...Pretty please, with cherry's and stuff on.
cheers

Answered with this...
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
Erebus 'TheChin' Sundance wrote:
Awesomeness, will it also have the zoom ability while holding the left mouse button down too? ...Pretty please, with cherry's and stuff on.

Yup!

CCP Turtlepower


Is this feature still being introduced at some point?


This is on Singularity at the moment, but there are some bugs like the zooming not working properly.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#47 - 2016-05-19 16:17:59 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
could you make the ctrl+mousewheel thing a keybinding? because i tried to unbind it but it is not under shortcuts, or at least i could not find it after a extensive search.

it happens often to me that i accidentally change the FOV while trying to lock targets with ctrl click.


Yeah, we are going to do something about this. It is quite annoying.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#48 - 2016-05-19 17:38:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
So from the lack of a reply to my simple issue, i can assume that you are happy to keep the new camera so that its twice as difficult to look up and down as it is to look left and right in your space game.

CCP pushing forward with this change is no different than if VALVE forced heavy mouse smoothing on the CS crowd. Sure, most people wouldnt notice a great deal, but the most dedicated and experienced people who rely on precision would arbitrarily lose some effectiveness.

Its getting truly exhausting, fighting one bad CCP decision after another. Not only will i be worse at the game after may31st, but what makes it really sting is that it is due to a change no one asked for, and that CCP clearly didnt have the aptitude to deliver.

Not to say there has not been some good ideas and implementations too, but this would seem like such a straight forward job, to use the existing camera 'feel' as a starting point and build options from it. Why even bother risk upsetting your most active players with a redesigned primary input method, that you have been forcing on folk every patch day for the last 6 months, a year before its fit for purpose imo.

Talk about redesigning the wheel and ending up with a few flat edges.
SoulLess Zealot
Khaedra's Law
#49 - 2016-05-19 21:20:18 UTC  |  Edited by: SoulLess Zealot
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
So from the lack of a reply to my simple issue, i can assume that you are happy to keep the new camera so that its twice as difficult to look up and down as it is to look left and right in your space game.

CCP pushing forward with this change is no different than if VALVE forced heavy mouse smoothing on the CS crowd. Sure, most people wouldnt notice a great deal, but the most dedicated and experienced people who rely on precision would arbitrarily lose some effectiveness.

Its getting truly exhausting, fighting one bad CCP decision after another. Not only will i be worse at the game after may31st, but what makes it really sting is that it is due to a change no one asked for, and that CCP clearly didnt have the aptitude to deliver.

Not to say there has not been some good ideas and implementations too, but this would seem like such a straight forward job, to use the existing camera 'feel' as a starting point and build options from it. Why even bother risk upsetting your most active players with a redesigned primary input method, that you have been forcing on folk every patch day for the last 6 months, a year before its fit for purpose imo.

Talk about redesigning the wheel and ending up with a few flat edges.



Well because they put alot of time in to make this shinny new turd. so what im getting is that its more important that their egos be stroked than functionality being met ... i wish my job had that focus
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
#50 - 2016-05-19 21:37:30 UTC
I still don't understand why emulating the Ol' Fine and Dandy Camera is out of the question.

- Sincerely, one of the 5.5%

♪ They'll always be bloodclaws to me ♫

Rear Admiral Barrington
Percussus Resurgo.
#51 - 2016-05-19 22:33:16 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


Its getting truly exhausting, fighting one bad CCP decision after another. Not only will i be worse at the game after may31st, but what makes it really sting is that it is due to a change no one asked for, and that CCP clearly didnt have the aptitude to deliver.



Seconding this part.

This has the feel of someone in CCP changing something because it's their job to change things and they don't have enough other work to do.
VanitySmurf Vaille
royal society for troll preservation
#52 - 2016-05-20 00:56:38 UTC
the way the new camera weave, bobs and floats make it feel the cameraman is standing on the deck of a Tea Clipper in the middle of a storm. Even as a PVE player the new camera isn't precise enough. I'm not a Golem pilot sitting half way across the system sniping the enemy,i am frequently playing can and mouse with the biggest ship in the mission, i need to be able to control what i am looking at. Bitter Eve Vet shouldn't be a feeling at a little over a year. Is it too much to ask that when i an not moving point the camera at some thing that the camera sit the FRICK STILL!!

Its been weeks since i played for more that 20 mins. I continually find the new camera bleeds in to the old on top of seemingly having to disable the new camera every few days. No wonder the 5.5% figure in there, just how many have stopped fighting it?
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#53 - 2016-05-20 06:31:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
VanitySmurf Vaille wrote:
the way the new camera weave, bobs and floats make it feel the cameraman is standing on the deck of a Tea Clipper in the middle of a storm. Even as a PVE player the new camera isn't precise enough. I'm not a Golem pilot sitting half way across the system sniping the enemy,i am frequently playing can and mouse with the biggest ship in the mission, i need to be able to control what i am looking at. Bitter Eve Vet shouldn't be a feeling at a little over a year. Is it too much to ask that when i an not moving point the camera at some thing that the camera sit the FRICK STILL!!

Its been weeks since i played for more that 20 mins. I continually find the new camera bleeds in to the old on top of seemingly having to disable the new camera every few days. No wonder the 5.5% figure in there, just how many have stopped fighting it?


In fairness to ccp. You can go to the escape menu and turn off all the 'features' like camera bobbing and acid trip field of view which largely makes the camera behave.

The fact that these features are on by default makes it clear to me that no one working on the camera plays the game. Any new player facing the game for the first time must wonder if the 'eve is hard' meme came from the fact that you have no idea where your ship is or what its doing most of the time.

Coupled with the really slow vertical axis, which is my main gripe (along with the violent zoom with ratchetless scroll mice), the new camera is a flaming turd on many peoples doorstep.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#54 - 2016-05-20 10:42:54 UTC
One thing that bugs me: the CTRL-Clickdrag feature to select several targets at once with a selecting frame locks literally every bracket within the frame. That's horrible when you want to use it in PVE.
I think this feature is not too bad but needs at least one more option: only selecting ships (player and NPC). As it stands, I could see myself use this to lock rats in anoms/DEDs/missions really quickly with just one click. However, I also have certain Large Collideable Objects, acceleration gates and other immobile objects in the brackets for the purpose of orbiting them, keeping range to them, checking distances, finding good stuff to kill for extra loot, and avoiding them among other things. Whit the current iteration of the click-drag lock feature, I lock all of these things and block my locked targets with garbage. I would thus very much welcome a SHIFT-CTRL-drag feature (or just SHIFT-drag) to only lock mobile targets/ships/things listed in your overview as opposed to all brackets.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

MarkeeDragon
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#55 - 2016-05-20 11:02:43 UTC
I also want to add. Even though I am very critical of the new camera. some of the new stuff in it is very cool and will get used by many people. So the new camera is not a fail. It is just not yet ready to fully replace the old camera. :)
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#56 - 2016-05-20 11:20:11 UTC
Roll
5,5 %...
because most of them don't know how to switch it off. In fact I will switch off my to boost off that 5,5%

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Logan Tigan
Nefarious Engineering Core
#57 - 2016-05-20 13:01:09 UTC
Before I say this... I don't think any of you are stupid... I just think maybe some of you may not realize the options available to you in game. There are checkmark options in Settings...

Uncheck Camera Bobbing to get rid of the "camera man on a tea clipper."

Auto tracking can be toggled using Shift+C in Orbit Camera mode
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#58 - 2016-05-20 15:25:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Logan Tigan wrote:
Before I say this... I don't think any of you are stupid... I just think maybe some of you may not realize the options available to you in game. There are checkmark options in Settings...

Uncheck Camera Bobbing to get rid of the "camera man on a tea clipper."

Auto tracking can be toggled using Shift+C in Orbit Camera mode


Before i say this... i dont think that ccp are stupid, i just think maybe some of them may not realize that these options should absolutely all be off by default.

There should also be options to have vertical axis sensitivity set to the same rate as horizontal. And a slider bar for zoom rate / acceleration / 'stiffness' of zoom.

Along with the other announced changes they are making to bring the new camera in line with the old, they could then use the 'it can be made almost the same as the old camera' argument, and it wouldnt be a lie.
Aaron Eyrou
Cannon Ball In The Pool
#59 - 2016-05-20 17:35:40 UTC
Logan Tigan wrote:
Before I say this... I don't think any of you are stupid... I just think maybe some of you may not realize the options available to you in game. There are checkmark options in Settings...

Uncheck Camera Bobbing to get rid of the "camera man on a tea clipper."

Auto tracking can be toggled using Shift+C in Orbit Camera mode


Shift+C does not work as good as C in the old camera
2 choices with Shift+C
1st my ship covering the target
2nd my ship going off screen

Neither of these options works for me.
I want my ship to be the main focus where I put on the screen. And the target to be the secondary focus where I put it on the screen. Right now the new camera decides for me. This is a step backwards.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#60 - 2016-05-20 19:59:29 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Logan Tigan wrote:
Before I say this... I don't think any of you are stupid... I just think maybe some of you may not realize the options available to you in game. There are checkmark options in Settings...

Uncheck Camera Bobbing to get rid of the "camera man on a tea clipper."

Auto tracking can be toggled using Shift+C in Orbit Camera mode


Before i say this... i dont think that ccp are stupid, i just think maybe some of them may not realize that these options should absolutely all be off by default.

There should also be options to have vertical axis sensitivity set to the same rate as horizontal. And a slider bar for zoom rate / acceleration / 'stiffness' of zoom.

Along with the other announced changes they are making to bring the new camera in line with the old, they could then use the 'it can be made almost the same as the old camera' argument, and it wouldnt be a lie.


First, the default settings for the new camera should be as close as possible to the old camera.

Second, every person in my Corp changes the camera settings back to the old ones each time you force them on us. So I call BS on your 5.5%.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.