EVE General Discussion

@Devil's Rejects

Agreed.

There are several things wrong with highsec, but this has much to do with a lack of assets. I believe CCP is trying to address this by making Citadels "better" than the freebee stations.

With tax rates and refining efficiency, possible production efficiency as well, many indy corps may consider putting up a Citadel if it is worthwhile -- and then you'd have something you can pinpoint and shoot.

These things however are rarely brought up in highsec threads because they don't fit the narrative of "CCP Nerfed My Gameplay".

Hub camping and blanket wardecs still seem to bring plenty of content as well. Watchlists ...... were bad for multiple reasons. Territorial control of a region is still possible to achieve, so I guess there's still a role for good mercenaries in the grand scheme of things. I have the utmost confidence in your abilities.

Solo / Small gang players usually roam FW space.

I hate to be "that guy" but I feel it is appropriate to point out the difference between suicide ganking and PvP here. PvP happens in lowsec or during wardecs. Suicide ganking involves concord.

Solo / smalls gangs don't suicide gank; they PvP.

Up till now, the thread seemed to be stuck in the suicide ganking part, until Ralph brought up some other possibilities. I am sure a 15 man corp can take on a structure and successfully wardec. Solo PvPers usually do their solo things in lowsec, join the militia / Spectre Fleet / small gang nullsec corps ... they might even base out of highsec. Solo ganking? Not so much as far as I know.


Edit: addendum. I know at this point some guy will come around and say "Hey! It's PvP too" so allow me to clarify. If you're using different doctrines, select different targets in different areas of space under different rules, you might have to name it differently. Yes they're both PvP but the difference in this context is relevant.

I have seen 22 Taloses blowing up a fully T2 tanked freighter. Also confused ... why are we switching between small gang/solo PvP and group effort ganking?

When I respond to ganking, people bring up solo PvP; and when I address solo PvP you respond with ganking again? Why do you quote me if your response has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said?

Today I learned that Highsec is "the game".

Speaking of, it's time to remove the 100% invulnerably that criminals enjoy inside highsec stations.

well if you don't mind your hanger being ganked, then yes its a fixable problem.

OK lets nail this on the alter of balance.

baltec1 wants it balanced as he puts it so that it is profitable to gank a T2 fitted barge of any description, that includes exhumers. I presume that this will include all security systems, so that a T1 fitted Catalyst could gank all of the mining barges in 0.5 systems. In effect he wants to go back to how it was.

When people normally talk about the cost of a ship people like baltec1 will jump in with the refrain ISK tanking, but ignore that buzzword as it is meant to divert you away from the balance issue.

Lets talk about a miner in hisec, I don't mean any one using bots and 20 characters or something like that, I am talking about people actively playing their accounts and trying to progress in the game. Their income is very very low, I used two skiffs and was getting 12.5m an hour. Again they can fit for yield use better ships in terms of yield and increase that by perhaps 30%

A Hulk costs 220m a Mackinaw 180m and a Skiff 150m, then the T1's, Covetor 32.5m Retreiver 29m and the Procurer 26m., simple fact that the game balance would be out of kilter in terms of the miner having a low income profession with what are very expensive ships. This was the situation before the ships were given better tank options. If CCP decides to go back to that situation then they have to reduce the cost of the mining ships so the Hulk will cost no more than 5m ISK because that would balance off against the the ganker and his ship which is the Catalyst in terms of the ship at risk and their income being able to sustain that loss.

All of the people I know who left the game before the tanks were revised saw no hope of progression, all they saw was that in that environment their ships were easy prey and it was massive hits against the income and they saw their asset progression go backwards at an impossible to sustain rate, there was so much risk and so little reward that they saw no way to continue. The balance on risk and reward was way out of touch...

The balance currently is that the yield and ease of use in terms of warping back and forth require, some people make that decision and get an increase yield, and people gank them for fun or strategic reasons but not for ISK.

So in a nutshell, the mining ships in hisec before the tank had massive risk and no reward and that was it.

baltec1 will throw risk and reward around at times, but only when it suits him, but the balance issue with mining before the tanks were improved was that it was the most risky profession in the game with the lowest reward and people only did it because it was restful and enabled them to build stuff. In a Skiff with a tank its low risk but it is also low reward, EVE in a nutshell.

CCP will not listen to his arguments because they finally worked out that they lost a huge amount of people who paid for their accounts, I think CCP changed it too late in the day, because I can tell you now that not a single one of those people I knew who used to mine in Eve came back, not one single one.

Except of course that it obviously hasn't since it still happens daily.

I saw someone jetcan mining yesterday, as they do every day. In fact less than a week ago I saw an orca get suspect baited and destroyed. And they didn't remove profitable ganking, people are simply choosing to use tank over yield. If everyone were flying stupid, they'd still be in hulks and macks and dying to gankers all over the place.

You left out the part where I said profitable to gank an untanked barge sporting expanders and full t2 fit.



These people who were getting ganked by pirates simply because they were not fitting a tank, they were infact fitting an anti-tank. The simplest solution to their problem was super easy, fit a tank. That one simple step resulted in gankers overlooking you.



The risk scaled with how you fitted your barge, no tank high risk, max tank very little.


The thing you willfully ignore was that the rewards for pirating barges was equally low and it relied entirely upon the miners themselves not fitting a tank. There is no balance when an entire profession is removed from eve, balance is when both sides have counters.

He probably did, I still see it all the time.

Yesterday it was in a HS ore anom, jetcanning until the hauler arrived.

Just about every belt in a 0.6 belt near me has giant secure containers for mining as well.