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why does it seem like CCP is castrating high sec content creators

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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#201 - 2016-05-04 08:22:10 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
EDIT: And a major point to make, the Change to bumping if CCP does it properly is also an end to no consequence PvP, where the gankers can toy with a victim for hours with no consequences.

There's always anti-ganking. That's the real no consequence pvp and I don't think bumping changes are going to end that.


First of all ganking will still happen, but the abortion of holding a freighter for hours will end if CCP has not gone half-baked on it. I think without the re-set it will make actual fights more likely in terms of freighter ganking, but that changes the tactical situation dynamic a bit which is why you lot will go back to ganking miners.

Consequences, well the no consequence of AG activities is a consequence of ganking to get to a -10 situation in terms of sec status, but it is still a 1v1 against a combat ship and there is risk there. AG players were looking foward to more interceptions.

Gankers can go buy tags or they can go grind some rats and improve their security status, after all what was good for War Akini is good for you.

Enjoy the challenge...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Black Pedro
Mine.
#202 - 2016-05-04 08:23:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
First, while technically profitable if you scoop your loot and never miss a gank, ganking untanked miners is not very. Like 10-20M ISK/h profitable. baltec1 is completely correct that no one does it for profit anymore, only extortion and terrorism, however I think that it is clear that CCP did that intentionally. Players though have figured out a way to continue support ganking miners, and there is a player-driven philanthropic organization that still allows this game play to go on that only seems to grow in popularity, strength, and SRP ISK balance each year so I don't see a problem here. If miner ganking stopped, I would expect CCP to step in with some other change but I see no sign of that happening anytime soon.

Second, while I don't have access to all the data, it does seem that the unprofitability to gank a Skiff is out of line with its ability to harvest resources and ignore the rest of the sandbox. In modern highsec, the Skiff is the overwhelming choice of miners suggesting it may be a tad OP. Perhaps during the next balance pass either it's yield will be toned down a bit, or the yield of the Hulk and Mackinaw increased to make them more attractive to miners.

But trying to get this back on topic set out by the OP, this next mining barge balance pass will come the new drilling platforms and could potentially change the whole way mining is done everywhere, including highsec. And in contrast to the fears of the OP, this drilling platform that will be central to the new way mining is done will be vulnerable to the other players who can wardec and attempt to destroy them. Miners who don't deploy one, or find one to use will be at a major disadvantage to those that do and see a massive hit to their income as they are out-competed. Depending how these things are balanced, the days of bot-aspirant, multi-boxing Skiff fleets may be coming to an end as highsec residents are actually forced to do something other than fly a Skiff and dock up or log out when a wardec comes in order to mine with any efficiency.

So OP, don't worry about highsec content creators. Eve is constantly changing, and while sometimes some storied playstyles go extinct (RIP highsec AWOXing), other times new ones appear. Highsec content-creators are resilient, and unless CCP throws in the towel and locks out weapons in highsec, they will find a way to explode carebears and the careless. If you close one door or make it smaller, they will find a window, or even blast their own hole through the wall with a blob of Catalysts if need be.

CCP is committed to giving us tools to not only build our dreams, but to wreck the other guys. Personally, I see the structures as an important first step to make highsec content creation more accessible. I fully expect an eventual revamp to criminal and wardec mechanics to complete their vision of a dynamic, and conflict filled player-driven universe where rewards come with risk, and player interaction is encouraged, not punished or prevented by clunky NPC mechanics.

Perhaps ganking won't always be the go-to content creation mechanic for highsec - perhaps the pendulum will swing back to wardecs. But in any case I am certain that carebears will still be regularly exploding in highsec (as CCP intends for the game to work), just as they will be regularly crying about how unfair that is, like it has been since the day the servers went live.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#203 - 2016-05-04 08:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


You have corrected nothing.

Apart from having to constantly correct you on my arguments, correct you when you said the hulk had the tank of a wet paper bag, when you said it's profitable to gank miners still, when you said going suspect is more risky than baiting with cans used to be and so on.
Quote:

So the balance is right, mining ships are still dying in hisec, what is your problem? The inability to play with their heads by winding them up?


The svipul dies but that doesn't mean it's anywhere close to being balanced.

Simple fact is that content has been removed due to poor changes. Barge piracy is gone, Jetcan mining is gone and along with the went a whole swath of content from baiting fights with theifs in my hauler right up to the ice interdictions. At the end of the day mining is highsec has never been as boring as it is today, literally the only risk and content they have now is code.


The Svipul is OP.

Nope barge piracy is not done, Liek Darz is doing it, he told me and others in local that he was making ISK out of it.

There are plenty of mining ships getting blown up in hisec, I was mining the other day and in came some CODE players and started ganking Mac's, so I hunted one down and podded her. There is plenty of ganking going on that is not CODE, people have adapted and still make money.

Stop being entitled and adapt, I had to.

EDIT: The Hulk still has the tank of a wet paper bag..., you corrected nothing, everything I said there was correct.


The hulk can fit a tank on par with most T2 cruisers. I guess that means you think almost every cruiser in eve also has the tank of a wet paper bag...

I'm also calling rubbish yet again on you saying it's profitable to gank miners. The average drop rate on hulks is around 5 mil, you need a 9-10 mil ship to kill said hulk if it has no tank. Over time you are operating at a loss even with you looting your own mods which works out at an average of 4 mil return.

There is nothing entitled here, content has been removed. In fact the entitled people here are the ones who think unprofitable barge hp and max cargo should come with the ships hull and not be a choice when fitting the ships. Every other ship needs to make hard choices, there is no reason why miners should not have to make those hard choices too.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#204 - 2016-05-04 08:37:08 UTC
Geronimo McVain wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The svipul dies but that doesn't mean it's anywhere close to being balanced.

Simple fact is that content has been removed due to poor changes. Barge piracy is gone, Jetcan mining is gone and with them went a whole swath of content from baiting fights with theifs in my hauler right up to the ice interdictions. At the end of the day mining in highsec has never been as boring as it is today, literally the only risk and content they have now is code.
If he had a ship that can stand up to you it would be content. If he had a ship and the skills to fight you it would be content. But most likely he doesn't or he wouldn't be mining. If you can just bait him and he has no chance to fight back it's content just for you and griefing for him.

And sorry, you are complaining that mining in High is now boring as hell but mining in Null is dangerous as I was told again and again. So why are YOU not out there jetcan mining in NPC Null when it's so much content and fun waiting for someone to gank YOU? Or is just the robbing, baiting and ganking fun and not the being robbed, baited and ganked? Why don't you make content on the other side and start a big jetcan mining operation? Maybe someone will steal from your jetcan and you can shoot him (at least after he blaped your ship). Don't ask what others can do for your content, create it on your own. I'm sure you will have fun



I used to drop a Jetcan in the middle of a fleet of barges and would attack those evil pirates you seem to hate so much using a pvp hauler. Go take a look at the slogan on the front of this website and note what it says. I'm all for making my own content but you have to remember that you are just as much my content as I am yours. Removing content for no other reason than people can't be bothered to protect themselves is not good for the game.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#205 - 2016-05-04 08:37:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


You have corrected nothing.

Apart from having to constantly correct you on my arguments, correct you when you said the hulk had the tank of a wet paper bag, when you said it's profitable to gank miners still, when you said going suspect is more risky than baiting with cans used to be and so on.
Quote:

So the balance is right, mining ships are still dying in hisec, what is your problem? The inability to play with their heads by winding them up?


The svipul dies but that doesn't mean it's anywhere close to being balanced.

Simple fact is that content has been removed due to poor changes. Barge piracy is gone, Jetcan mining is gone and along with the went a whole swath of content from baiting fights with theifs in my hauler right up to the ice interdictions. At the end of the day mining is highsec has never been as boring as it is today, literally the only risk and content they have now is code.


The Svipul is OP.

Nope barge piracy is not done, Liek Darz is doing it, he told me and others in local that he was making ISK out of it.

There are plenty of mining ships getting blown up in hisec, I was mining the other day and in came some CODE players and started ganking Mac's, so I hunted one down and podded her. There is plenty of ganking going on that is not CODE, people have adapted and still make money.

Stop being entitled and adapt, I had to.

EDIT: The Hulk still has the tank of a wet paper bag..., you corrected nothing, everything I said there was correct.


The hulk can fit a tank on par with most T2 cruisers. I guess that means you think almost every cruiser in eve also has the tank of a wet paper bag...

I'm also calling rubbish yet again on you saying it's profitable to gank miners. The average drop rate on hulks is around 5 mil, you need a 9-10 mil ship to kill said hulk if it has no tank. Over time you are operating at a loss even with you looting your own mods which works out at an average of 4 mil return.

There is nothing entitled here, content has been removed. In fact the entitled people here are the ones who think unprofitable barge hp and max cargo should come with the ships hull and not be a choice when fitting the ships. Every other ship needs to make hard choices, there is no reason why miners should have to make those hard choices too.


Liek Darz told that to people in local in Osmon when someone said he was funded to do this, but he ganks different ships, Hulks, Mac's, Retrivers, Covetors and the mining frigates, he even ganks mission running cruisers if that answers your question there. People fit their mac's for yield which is how he kills them with two Catalysts.

I have had people tell me they fit for yeild because they hate losing ISK, go kill them, I fit for tank and I accept the loss of yield from sitting in a tanked Skiff when I mine.

This is the reality, I liked Black Pedro's post even if I disagreed on this part of it, because hisec is going to change and become more fun in my opinion. Now come on baltec1 stop whining about the past and embrace the coming fun.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#206 - 2016-05-04 08:52:54 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Gankers can go buy tags or they can go grind some rats and improve their security status, after all what was good for War Akini is good for you.

Enjoy the challenge...

Why good for me? My sec status is fine thanks.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#207 - 2016-05-04 08:56:31 UTC
Quote:


Liek Darz told that to people in local in Osmon when someone said he was funded to do this, but he ganks different ships, Hulks, Mac's, Retrivers, Covetors and the mining frigates, he even ganks mission running cruisers if that answers your question there. People fit their mac's for yield which is how he kills them with two Catalysts.

I have had people tell me they fit for yeild because they hate losing ISK, go kill them, I fit for tank and I accept the loss of yield from sitting in a tanked Skiff when I mine.

This is the reality, I liked Black Pedro's post even if I disagreed on this part of it, because hisec is going to change and become more fun in my opinion. Now come on baltec1 stop whining about the past and embrace the coming fun.


He lied to you. It's a loss making operation, there is simply not enough isk in the loot to cover the costs. It only ever worked when people fitted cargo expanders with no tank. After the hp buff combined with not needing cargo expanders the cost to gank exceeded the reward.

Same thing with all the old content with jetcan mining. Nobody jetcan mines so nobody is hunting for can which means I have no jetcan flippers to hunt myself. It was a mistake for CCP to make these changes to barges and it has resulted in less pvp in highsec. The loss in content also goes further. Less barges, haulers and combat ships and mod are getting killed which means fewer ships are getting bought, less ships getting bought means less reward for industrialists.

You tell me to adapt, well I adapted right up until the point they removed my gameplay. The people who didn't adapt were the people who demanded and celebrated CCP removing pirates from mining.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#208 - 2016-05-04 09:08:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


Liek Darz told that to people in local in Osmon when someone said he was funded to do this, but he ganks different ships, Hulks, Mac's, Retrivers, Covetors and the mining frigates, he even ganks mission running cruisers if that answers your question there. People fit their mac's for yield which is how he kills them with two Catalysts.

I have had people tell me they fit for yeild because they hate losing ISK, go kill them, I fit for tank and I accept the loss of yield from sitting in a tanked Skiff when I mine.

This is the reality, I liked Black Pedro's post even if I disagreed on this part of it, because hisec is going to change and become more fun in my opinion. Now come on baltec1 stop whining about the past and embrace the coming fun.


He lied to you. It's a loss making operation, there is simply not enough isk in the loot to cover the costs. It only ever worked when people fitted cargo expanders with no tank. After the hp buff combined with not needing cargo expanders the cost to gank exceeded the reward.

Same thing with all the old content with jetcan mining. Nobody jetcan mines so nobody is hunting for can which means I have no jetcan flippers to hunt myself. It was a mistake for CCP to make these changes to barges and it has resulted in less pvp in highsec. The loss in content also goes further. Less barges, haulers and combat ships and mod are getting killed which means fewer ships are getting bought, less ships getting bought means less reward for industrialists.

You tell me to adapt, well I adapted right up until the point they removed my gameplay. The people who didn't adapt were the people who demanded and celebrated CCP removing pirates from mining.


Why would the most successful miner ganker in the game lie to me, you don't do it, he does. That said his reply did surprise me at the time. Regardless of that it still comes back to the fact that you feel that you should profit from a T2 fitted mining ship if you gank it, which seems like a silly benchmark in any game. Pirates gank haulers now, seriously your benchmark does not make any sense.

You can go after suspect baiters, there was a PL one outside the Preimeter X citadel, thats a fun challenge for you.

Lots of ships are dying in the game at the moment.

Pirates are going where the money is, which is interdicting haulers on gates, you should try it...




When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#209 - 2016-05-04 09:11:55 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Gankers can go buy tags or they can go grind some rats and improve their security status, after all what was good for War Akini is good for you.

Enjoy the challenge...

Why good for me? My sec status is fine thanks.


I meant Gankers in general when replying to your consequences post above.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#210 - 2016-05-04 09:12:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
He lied to you. It's a loss making operation,....

Come on Baltec, Dracvlad believes totally in the integrity and honesty of gankers.

Everything a ganker has told him in local has always been the truth.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#211 - 2016-05-04 09:27:40 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Quote:


Why would the most successful miner ganker in the game lie to me, you don't do it, he does. That said his reply did surprise me at the time.
To troll you. He is using the ships and tactics invented by my corp, I probably know more than he does on this subject and it's history as I was there from the start.


Quote:
Regardless of that it still comes back to the fact that you feel that you should profit from a T2 fitted mining ship if you gank it, which seems like a silly benchmark in any game. Pirates gank haulers now, seriously your benchmark does not make any sense.
Every other subcap bat maybe the abandon is profitable to gank when fitted in this way. It makes perfect sense for barges to be like this too. It's not like they would be at some kind of disadvantage, even the most token of tanks would push it above the limit of being profitable to gank. Hell if it was up to me I would give the barges the power grid they need to fit a large shield extender.
Quote:

You can go after suspect baiters, there was a PL one outside the Preimeter X citadel, thats a fun challenge for you.

Lots of ships are dying in the game at the moment.

Pirates are going where the money is, which is interdicting haulers on gates, you should try it...






Being able to go do something else doesn't alter the fact that all of that content is gone. What happens when piracy against freighters is gone? When it becomes unprofitable to target haulers? You will point out that ganking is still possible but for a pirate it will mean their profession is gone. That is what has happened to mining piracy, it no longer exists all that is left is code style ganking to terrorise.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#212 - 2016-05-04 09:29:47 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
He lied to you. It's a loss making operation,....

Come on Baltec, Dracvlad believes totally in the integrity and honesty of gankers.

Everything a ganker has told him in local has always been the truth.


Liek Darz is a fine outstanding member of CODE and is a supremely efficient and active ganker who I respect greatly because I have gone after him a few times, he really knows his stuff and had no reason to lie to me.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#213 - 2016-05-04 09:41:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
baltec1 you are trying to push me into replying on ISK tanking so you can pull my chain on that. I disagree with your benchmark for reasons I explained earlier in terms of structure for a mining ship as compared to a combat ship. I still feel that you think you are entitled to gank every ship that can be fitted to a T2 level and profit from it, I don't agree with that benchmark

Freighters can still be ganked even with a full on correct 3 minute warp timer, its just become more difficult and more likely to be interdicted, more content...

Pirate is a profession, they have to adapt to changing circumstances, a Miner pirate is however a bit low brow to be honest.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#214 - 2016-05-04 09:55:46 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 you are trying to push me into replying on ISK tanking so you can pull my chain on that. I disagree with your benchmark for reasons I explained earlier in terms of structure for a mining ship as compared to a combat ship. I still feel that you think you are entitled to gank every ship that can be fitted to a T2 level and profit from it, I don't agree with that benchmark
You have given a role play reason to justify barges not being balanced like every other subcap out there. You can avoid being profitable simply by fitting a tank, that's it. Why is this too much to ask from barge pilots?
Quote:

Freighters can still be ganked even with a full on correct 3 minute warp timer, its just become more difficult and more likely to be interdicted, more content...
That's not what I was talking about. I said what happens to pirates when ganking haulers and freights becomes unprofitable? A rhetorical question granted but the point was the pirates have no other content to move to.

Quote:
Pirate is a profession, they have to adapt to changing circumstances, a Miner pirate is however a bit low brow to be honest.


You can't adapt to impossible. Miner pirates were indeed to low bar of the profession with the poorest of payouts but it was where people started out. It was a newer pilot thing much like level 1 missions. They cut their teeth on it then progressed on to other things. There is still no reason that their profession, even it it was the lowest of low in the eyes of people such as yourself, should have been removed simply because people who fitted no tank on their expanded barges refused to adapt and fit a tank.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#215 - 2016-05-04 10:06:25 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
EDIT: And a major point to make, the Change to bumping if CCP does it properly is also an end to no consequence PvP, where the gankers can toy with a victim for hours with no consequences.

There's always anti-ganking. That's the real no consequence pvp and I don't think bumping changes are going to end that.


First of all ganking will still happen, ...

Of course it will. I totally agree.

However, you claimed no consequence pvp would come to an end, which is plainly false.

Anti-ganking is the most no consequence pvp there is in the game and it will continue no matter what bumping changes occur.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Tisiphone Dira
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#216 - 2016-05-04 10:14:26 UTC
If you believe everything Liek Darz says (and you should, he is an honourable CODE. Agent) why haven't you purchased a permit from him? Or are you lying to us?

There once was a ganker named tisi

A stunningly beautiful missy

To gank a gross miner

There is nothing finer, cept when they get all pissy
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#217 - 2016-05-04 10:41:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
You have given a role play reason to justify barges not being balanced like every other subcap out there. You can avoid being profitable simply by fitting a tank, that's it. Why is this too much to ask from barge pilots?
Again though you're talking about a versatile ship vs a ship with a rigid set of fitting options and crying that a ship built for defense has a naturally tougher defense than a more flexible ship built to fulfill multiple roles. Stop being terrible.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#218 - 2016-05-04 10:47:41 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
You have given a role play reason to justify barges not being balanced like every other subcap out there. You can avoid being profitable simply by fitting a tank, that's it. Why is this too much to ask from barge pilots?
Again though you're talking about a versatile ship vs a ship with a rigid set of fitting options and crying that a ship built for defense has a naturally tougher defense than a more flexible ship built to fulfill multiple roles. Stop being terrible.


I'm comparing barges to every single other subcap.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#219 - 2016-05-04 10:57:10 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
You have given a role play reason to justify barges not being balanced like every other subcap out there. You can avoid being profitable simply by fitting a tank, that's it. Why is this too much to ask from barge pilots?
Again though you're talking about a versatile ship vs a ship with a rigid set of fitting options and crying that a ship built for defense has a naturally tougher defense than a more flexible ship built to fulfill multiple roles. Stop being terrible.


So much this.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#220 - 2016-05-04 11:00:03 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
You have given a role play reason to justify barges not being balanced like every other subcap out there. You can avoid being profitable simply by fitting a tank, that's it. Why is this too much to ask from barge pilots?
Again though you're talking about a versatile ship vs a ship with a rigid set of fitting options and crying that a ship built for defense has a naturally tougher defense than a more flexible ship built to fulfill multiple roles. Stop being terrible.


So much this.


You are agreeing with a blatantly wrong comment.