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[Citadels] Changing NPC taxes

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Lugh Crow-Slave
#1461 - 2016-04-16 18:18:34 UTC
Nou Mene wrote:
Isnt possible to make taxes different by area of space. so in HS NPC and player owned are similar. In LS favours players a bit and in NS favours players more.
Giving a too big tax advantage to player owned market would make the game unncessarily hard on solo/small groups. And give too much of an income to big groups able to own and defend their citadel.

Also maybe linking wardec system to citadels, you could make:
A "War Service" that gives you X number of war slots. So every X number of wars, the wardeccing group would have to put a citadel in risk. Make not possible to wardec with having a WAR SERVICE in an owned citadel.
Defenders need to have a way to win the war... make them be able to entosis the "war service" off. Or destroy the citadel.

Just as an example.


This was the original idea rigs would be stronger in lower sec levels and there would be a rig to reduce npc tax however it seems to have been abandoned for some reason

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1462 - 2016-04-16 18:21:41 UTC
Also I have made points on this before but making it so that compression can't be taxed makes it so refining is very very hard to tax this needs to be changed and I haven't gotten a good reason as to why compressing should not be taxed

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1463 - 2016-04-16 18:24:51 UTC
Zad Murrard wrote:
Just tried with my sheets in 2 different businesses what the taxation changes would do
assuming that everything else stays the same.

First business, will get 16-17% less profits
Second business, will get 13-14% less profits

=> No reason to change to citadels. Could probably live with 30% less profits and still be ok.


Factor in "pay 10% of all your wares' worth since the Market Hub was blown up and you need to respawn them somewhere" and you're into "Oh really CCP?" land.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1464 - 2016-04-16 18:42:18 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Zad Murrard wrote:
Just tried with my sheets in 2 different businesses what the taxation changes would do
assuming that everything else stays the same.

First business, will get 16-17% less profits
Second business, will get 13-14% less profits

=> No reason to change to citadels. Could probably live with 30% less profits and still be ok.


Factor in "pay 10% of all your wares' worth since the Market Hub was blown up and you need to respawn them somewhere" and you're into "Oh really CCP?" land.





So what you're saying is the taxes need to go even higher

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1465 - 2016-04-18 09:01:41 UTC
Where is the page 1 Citadel dev blog about the upcoming fee and tax increases plus the clone jumping costs (aka "PvP tax" for newbies)?

I'm still seeing the changes and subsequent benefits for a highsec trade cartel as far too extreme and porpose to go step by step depending on player reaction, plus differentiate rates for different sec space.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1466 - 2016-04-18 10:55:49 UTC
Will citadels in wormholes have transaction tax? I don't think they should as there is no asset safety in wormhole space so it makes sense for wormholes to get some advantages.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#1467 - 2016-04-18 11:38:32 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Will citadels in wormholes have transaction tax? I don't think they should as there is no asset safety in wormhole space so it makes sense for wormholes to get some advantages.


For the same reason that manufacturing has costs (workforce) so will running a market and processing orders.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1468 - 2016-04-18 12:54:25 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Will citadels in wormholes have transaction tax? I don't think they should as there is no asset safety in wormhole space so it makes sense for wormholes to get some advantages.


For the same reason that manufacturing has costs (workforce) so will running a market and processing orders.


Manufacturing does not have a cost for workforce unless you are paying another player to make stuff for you.Roll
Either way, lore reasons are irrelevant. I just want to play a game that is designed well and ad fairly for all players.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#1469 - 2016-04-18 13:02:12 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Will citadels in wormholes have transaction tax? I don't think they should as there is no asset safety in wormhole space so it makes sense for wormholes to get some advantages.


For the same reason that manufacturing has costs (workforce) so will running a market and processing orders.


Manufacturing does not have a cost for workforce unless you are paying another player to make stuff for you.Roll
Either way, lore reasons are irrelevant. I just want to play a game that is designed well and ad fairly for all players.


Okay - so then, why do you believe that a Citadel in a WH should cost any less than one in HS, LS or Null? Fairness would make all the costs more or less the same.

You also seem not to grasp the concept of the System Indices either when it comes to manufacturing - for when building something it takes 10s of thousands of people who aren't the rich pod-pilots. But then you reject the 'lore' or logic.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1470 - 2016-04-18 13:29:57 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:

You also seem not to grasp the concept of the System Indices either when it comes to manufacturing - for when building something it takes 10s of thousands of people who aren't the rich pod-pilots. But then you reject the 'lore' or logic.


Can't you read? I clearly stated why I feel wormholes should have some benefits.

isk is not one of the materials required for manufacturing so please stop this dumb argument. Do you pay the crew on your ships, do you have to pay to refuel your ship?... NO, you don't!

To satisfy your RP needs, imagine that all systems in wormhole citadels are automated, if it makes you happy.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1471 - 2016-04-18 22:04:21 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:

You also seem not to grasp the concept of the System Indices either when it comes to manufacturing - for when building something it takes 10s of thousands of people who aren't the rich pod-pilots. But then you reject the 'lore' or logic.


Can't you read? I clearly stated why I feel wormholes should have some benefits.

isk is not one of the materials required for manufacturing so please stop this dumb argument. Do you pay the crew on your ships, do you have to pay to refuel your ship?... NO, you don't!

To satisfy your RP needs, imagine that all systems in wormhole citadels are automated, if it makes you happy.

Ok, so we have a guy from a wormhole group asking for something for free. Nothing new there, the richest sector on TQ are always crying about how hard wormhole life is.
Hint; It's meant to be that way, if it wasn't everyone would live in wormholes.

As for RP, if it were a thing, Citadels in wormholes would cost a lot more in fees etc due to their isolation - Even automation requires upkeep, or would you expect that to be free as well.....

So how about some new benefits for wormholes using citadels - You can put a clone there now, you can build a local market; you can select when you want to defend your Citadel; you have all the benefits of a Citadel now like docking, tethering, unlimited personal storage; you can if you choose even rent offices to whomever you like; plus a lot more advantages never before seen in wormholes.

I'd imagine, for wormhole hunters being able to have your allies dock with you while preparing for a raid would not be a real benefit, would it......

And you want no fees in wormholes why? Oh right,because wormholers are special and should be handed isk concessions for living in the wealthiest part of TQ - Like transaction fees would break a wormholers wallet because buying locally instead of having to travel to highsec for everything you need would not be enough of a benefit.

And if you want complete asset safety - Don't live in a wormhole.

NB; Isk is very much a part of manufacturing - You can't start a job in a station or citadel without isk.


Rek Seven - Stop making all wormhole dwellers look bad, asking for handouts, really - Just stop.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1472 - 2016-04-18 22:45:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:

You also seem not to grasp the concept of the System Indices either when it comes to manufacturing - for when building something it takes 10s of thousands of people who aren't the rich pod-pilots. But then you reject the 'lore' or logic.


Can't you read? I clearly stated why I feel wormholes should have some benefits.

isk is not one of the materials required for manufacturing so please stop this dumb argument. Do you pay the crew on your ships, do you have to pay to refuel your ship?... NO, you don't!

To satisfy your RP needs, imagine that all systems in wormhole citadels are automated, if it makes you happy.

Ok, so we have a guy from a wormhole group asking for something for free. Nothing new there, the richest sector on TQ are always crying about how hard wormhole life is.
Hint; It's meant to be that way, if it wasn't everyone would live in wormholes.

As for RP, if it were a thing, Citadels in wormholes would cost a lot more in fees etc due to their isolation - Even automation requires upkeep, or would you expect that to be free as well.....

So how about some new benefits for wormholes using citadels - You can put a clone there now, you can build a local market; you can select when you want to defend your Citadel; you have all the benefits of a Citadel now like docking, tethering, unlimited personal storage; you can if you choose even rent offices to whomever you like; plus a lot more advantages never before seen in wormholes.

I'd imagine, for wormhole hunters being able to have your allies dock with you while preparing for a raid would not be a real benefit, would it......

And you want no fees in wormholes why? Oh right,because wormholers are special and should be handed isk concessions for living in the wealthiest part of TQ - Like transaction fees would break a wormholers wallet because buying locally instead of having to travel to highsec for everything you need would not be enough of a benefit.

And if you want complete asset safety - Don't live in a wormhole.

NB; Isk is very much a part of manufacturing - You can't start a job in a station or citadel without isk.


Rek Seven - Stop making all wormhole dwellers look bad, asking for handouts, really - Just stop.


the post i made a few months back better explains why WHs need 0 tax in order to actualy make them viable to be publicly available.(in my signature)

the main reason is no asset safty this means you have a HUGE risk compared to other areas of space when using these and a market (should you want it to be open) would tell everyone in system just what it is they would get if they popped it

basically the idea is more risk more reward

the idea of a wh market is something i have loved the idea of since they were first added to eve

it could open up a new form of trade for players who look wh to wh to find demands and make profit, but this is not likely to happen even with the option now being there do to how much risk is involved 0 tax may not even be enough but it raises the chance

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
sci0gon
Kaira Innovations
#1473 - 2016-04-18 23:46:25 UTC
Scotsman Howard wrote:
So will you be monitoring to see actually how many people move out of stations in high sec to citadels? Will we be getting updates after a certain amount of time as to how successful this idea was (other than raising prices across the board)?

Just curious as we are still waiting on other updates on features such as the jump fatigue blog that was promised a while ago.

Not trying to be salty here, but this is one change I honestly cannot support as it will only hurt the player base in the long run with higher prices.

I honestly dont see how that is a problem nor how it will it hurt the player base. There are ample ways of making isk to the point that some people are running around with a trillion isk. I admit thats not the same for the younger generation in EVE but even from looking at the age of your character, I can only assume that you werent around when prices on T2 ships and modules were priced very high in the region of t2 large guns costing 20-30mil each and cloaks 50-80mil each and so on. I could be wrong though, it could be a alt of a alt of a alt......

Back then people still paid those amounts over and over again for ship replacements and fittings especially for pvp, admittedly not everyone flew T2 spec'd ships due to lack of skills and because they didnt want to spend that much on them. It doesnt mean it hurt the player base though, they just adapted to how things were back then and its pretty much the same when citadels come out. I doubt the prices we have now even with a slight inflation with the introduction of the citadels will no where near hit those figures so players shouldnt have no trouble at all paying for them or even inventing them to either build or use themselves.
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#1474 - 2016-04-19 08:23:57 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
...................

isk is not one of the materials required for manufacturing so please stop this dumb argument. Do you pay the crew on your ships, do you have to pay to refuel your ship?... NO, you don't! ...........


Actually I have always fervently wished for ships to use fuel, need maintenance and crew to have 'pay' (which could all be simply wrapped up in a 'fuel' requirement. Indeed I only wish we had modified Einsteinian physics rather than (originally Star Wars inspired) flight-sim movement

Isk in game, just like all 'money' IRL is not real - it's just a concept and used to relate transactions.

As noted - you just want something - and it's not 'fairness'.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1475 - 2016-04-19 08:32:52 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:

As noted - you just want something - and it's not 'fairness'.


How is wanting a trade off for no asset security not fair?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1476 - 2016-04-19 08:52:51 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:

You also seem not to grasp the concept of the System Indices either when it comes to manufacturing - for when building something it takes 10s of thousands of people who aren't the rich pod-pilots. But then you reject the 'lore' or logic.


Can't you read? I clearly stated why I feel wormholes should have some benefits.

isk is not one of the materials required for manufacturing so please stop this dumb argument. Do you pay the crew on your ships, do you have to pay to refuel your ship?... NO, you don't!

To satisfy your RP needs, imagine that all systems in wormhole citadels are automated, if it makes you happy.

Ok, so we have a guy from a wormhole group asking for something for free. Nothing new there, the richest sector on TQ are always crying about how hard wormhole life is.
Hint; It's meant to be that way, if it wasn't everyone would live in wormholes.

As for RP, if it were a thing, Citadels in wormholes would cost a lot more in fees etc due to their isolation - Even automation requires upkeep, or would you expect that to be free as well.....

So how about some new benefits for wormholes using citadels - You can put a clone there now, you can build a local market; you can select when you want to defend your Citadel; you have all the benefits of a Citadel now like docking, tethering, unlimited personal storage; you can if you choose even rent offices to whomever you like; plus a lot more advantages never before seen in wormholes.

I'd imagine, for wormhole hunters being able to have your allies dock with you while preparing for a raid would not be a real benefit, would it......

And you want no fees in wormholes why? Oh right,because wormholers are special and should be handed isk concessions for living in the wealthiest part of TQ - Like transaction fees would break a wormholers wallet because buying locally instead of having to travel to highsec for everything you need would not be enough of a benefit.

And if you want complete asset safety - Don't live in a wormhole.

NB; Isk is very much a part of manufacturing - You can't start a job in a station or citadel without isk.


Rek Seven - Stop making all wormhole dwellers look bad, asking for handouts, really - Just stop.


You don't have a clue mate and you are ignoring my point.

It's simple; if there is no asset safety in W-space like there is everywhere else, wormholes should get some benefits that others space does not have.

CCP are giving you asset safety because they know you are weak and would cry like spoiled children if your stuff got permanently destroyed. HTFU like wormholers 😎

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#1477 - 2016-04-19 16:11:47 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:

As noted - you just want something - and it's not 'fairness'.


How is wanting a trade off for no asset security not fair?


Rek Seven wrote:
.....................
It's simple; if there is no asset safety in W-space like there is everywhere else, wormholes should get some benefits that others space does not have.
......


WH do get benefits for that lack of safety - the chance to farm away for great rewards.

That, for example, one can farm HS incusions for massive reward at little risk is a separate issue...

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#1478 - 2016-04-19 20:52:43 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:

As noted - you just want something - and it's not 'fairness'.


How is wanting a trade off for no asset security not fair?


Rek Seven wrote:
.....................
It's simple; if there is no asset safety in W-space like there is everywhere else, wormholes should get some benefits that others space does not have.
......


WH do get benefits for that lack of safety - the chance to farm away for great rewards.

That, for example, one can farm HS incusions for massive reward at little risk is a separate issue...

Except that in the same update the biggest source of farmable income is becoming far harder to farm.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1479 - 2016-04-19 22:31:10 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Marcus Tedric wrote:

As noted - you just want something - and it's not 'fairness'.


How is wanting a trade off for no asset security not fair?


Rek Seven wrote:
.....................
It's simple; if there is no asset safety in W-space like there is everywhere else, wormholes should get some benefits that others space does not have.
......


WH do get benefits for that lack of safety - the chance to farm away for great rewards.

That, for example, one can farm HS incusions for massive reward at little risk is a separate issue...

Except that in the same update the biggest source of farmable income is becoming far harder to farm.


also if thats the case then null should not get it either i can make a lot more isk out there than i can in a c1 or c2

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Zad Murrard
Frozen Dawn Inc
Frozen Dawn Alliance
#1480 - 2016-04-20 06:09:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Zad Murrard
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Zad Murrard wrote:
Just tried with my sheets in 2 different businesses what the taxation changes would do
assuming that everything else stays the same.

First business, will get 16-17% less profits
Second business, will get 13-14% less profits

=> No reason to change to citadels. Could probably live with 30% less profits and still be ok.


Factor in "pay 10% of all your wares' worth since the Market Hub was blown up and you need to respawn them somewhere" and you're into "Oh really CCP?" land.




Why would I factor it in? The calculations assume that everything would continue in their current locations. Ie. people would still sell their stuff in Jita 4-4 etc. As far as I've understood you still cannot blow up Jita 4-4 after the patch?

Edit: Got it, so you meant that indeed there is not enough incentive to move trading/selling stuff to citadels.