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Recurring Opportunities coming soon

First post
Author
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1621 - 2016-04-14 18:35:41 UTC
Mister Ripley wrote:
Ravcharas wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
I just don't understand why it matters that log in every day. I pay a subscription fee. Why does it matter whether I use the service as long as I continue to subscribe. I could understand encouraging daily logins in a F2P or one time fee game, but CCP gets paid no matter what I do in Eve, so long as I am willing to subscribe. They should be doing things to keep me wanting to subscribe. Right?

The sad part is that this is going to make me subscribe less - not quit, just spend less on the service. Six accounts worth of dailies is going to cut into my "fun time" a bit too much. And I don't like the way Eve is heading, so, just as I did last year, when I went from seven down to six accounts, this year I'll be going from six down to five accounts.

It matters because the game is more interesting and attractive it it feels populated. Eve is an interconnected game with a persistent world, so the consequences of my actions actually has an effect even after I'm logged off. However for every minute you are logged on, the possibility of interaction with other players is higher. Other people being the main draw of a massive multiplayer experience. But some actions have a much greater effect than others. And one hour of active play can be more important than other hours, even if that hour is spent doing the same kind of activity. That's the butterfly effect.

I understand your point but FT Dio. points out that a paying customer should not be pushed to provide some service (in this case content) to the sales company.
It's like buying something and then being pushed to write positive reviews and recommend the product to friends and family.

In Free to Play games you are the product. In Pay to Play games this should not be the case. The total CCU (concurrent users) metric makes sense in F2P games because every minute someone is playing is a minute to push him to buy game currency (i.e. because something takes insane amount of time to build or to craft, but can be completed with just 100 diamonds).

I don't understand why CCP seems so eager to improve this metric. I never had the feeling to be alone somewhere. Sure some 0.0 areas are basicaly empty, but that's because of game mechanics. People are in other areas where they can use said mechanics in their favour. Like a standing fleet in a system, forming groups to be safe.

I agree. And I'm quite against this daily opportunity implementation, I think it'll hurt the game. However, it needs still be pointed out that in multiplayer games players enable gameplay for each other. That's true for Eve and it's true for TF2 and it's true for World of Tanks. Paying or not, there's at least a theoretical point of critical player mass, below which the game simply wither away. So in some sense the game needs to push or prod everyone to some extent, to encourage whatever behaviour is deemed to be positive for the game eco system as a whole.
Vardec Crom
The Harpooner's Rest
#1622 - 2016-04-14 18:46:56 UTC
Hm I never thought about how the skill queue changes affected daily logins. And I suppose if it is targeted at everyone and not just new players then sp is definitely the way to go. Alright I'm willing to give this a shot.
Mister Ripley
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1623 - 2016-04-14 18:48:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mister Ripley
Ravcharas wrote:
I agree. And I'm quite against this daily opportunity implementation, I think it'll hurt the game. However, it needs still be pointed out that in multiplayer games players enable gameplay for each other. That's true for Eve and it's true for TF2 and it's true for World of Tanks. Paying or not, there's at least a theoretical point of critical player mass, below which the game simply wither away. So in some sense the game needs to push or prod everyone to some extent, to encourage whatever behaviour is deemed to be positive for the game eco system as a whole.

True. This has already been pointed out alot of times in this thread. But shouldn't it be the gameplay that makes you want to play and not some psychological trick?
EVE has so many features that are half-assed and CCP is not touching any of them. Instead they implement F2P game mechanics.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1624 - 2016-04-14 19:13:01 UTC
Mister Ripley wrote:
Ravcharas wrote:
I agree. And I'm quite against this daily opportunity implementation, I think it'll hurt the game. However, it needs still be pointed out that in multiplayer games players enable gameplay for each other. That's true for Eve and it's true for TF2 and it's true for World of Tanks. Paying or not, there's at least a theoretical point of critical player mass, below which the game simply wither away. So in some sense the game needs to push or prod everyone to some extent, to encourage whatever behaviour is deemed to be positive for the game eco system as a whole.

True. This has already been pointed out alot of times in this thread. But shouldn't it be the gameplay that makes you want to play and not some psychological trick?


CCP used to believe this, yes.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Stormin
Gone Krabbing
Solyaris Chtonium
#1625 - 2016-04-14 19:17:07 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Mister Ripley wrote:
Ravcharas wrote:
I agree. And I'm quite against this daily opportunity implementation, I think it'll hurt the game. However, it needs still be pointed out that in multiplayer games players enable gameplay for each other. That's true for Eve and it's true for TF2 and it's true for World of Tanks. Paying or not, there's at least a theoretical point of critical player mass, below which the game simply wither away. So in some sense the game needs to push or prod everyone to some extent, to encourage whatever behaviour is deemed to be positive for the game eco system as a whole.

True. This has already been pointed out alot of times in this thread. But shouldn't it be the gameplay that makes you want to play and not some psychological trick?


CCP used to believe this, yes.


We're all here because we enjoy the game play. If you didn't care about the game play you wouldn't want it to change.

It's 10k SP a day, who cares. You'll basically get it passively when you log on, and maybe miss a few when you don't, its still more SP than you had before.

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1626 - 2016-04-14 19:26:10 UTC
Stormin wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Mister Ripley wrote:
Ravcharas wrote:
I agree. And I'm quite against this daily opportunity implementation, I think it'll hurt the game. However, it needs still be pointed out that in multiplayer games players enable gameplay for each other. That's true for Eve and it's true for TF2 and it's true for World of Tanks. Paying or not, there's at least a theoretical point of critical player mass, below which the game simply wither away. So in some sense the game needs to push or prod everyone to some extent, to encourage whatever behaviour is deemed to be positive for the game eco system as a whole.

True. This has already been pointed out alot of times in this thread. But shouldn't it be the gameplay that makes you want to play and not some psychological trick?


CCP used to believe this, yes.


We're all here because we enjoy the game play. If you didn't care about the game play you wouldn't want it to change.

It's 10k SP a day, who cares. You'll basically get it passively when you log on, and maybe miss a few when you don't, its still more SP than you had before.



More or less SP isn't the question. Why they are resorting to artificial reason to make us log in instead of making the game more interesting so we log every day instead of every other day for example?
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1627 - 2016-04-14 19:52:17 UTC
Mister Ripley wrote:
True. This has already been pointed out alot of times in this thread. But shouldn't it be the gameplay that makes you want to play and not some psychological trick?
EVE has so many features that are half-assed and CCP is not touching any of them. Instead they implement F2P game mechanics.

I think it should be both. Or rather, engaging gameplay relies on psychological tricks to work. But you need to be responsible about which tricks you use and how. Variable ratio rewards are the poster child for borderline unethical game design, and rightly so. But you also shouldn't design your loot drop tables to be entirely predictable either. It's fun to get a little something extra every now and then. But you need to be careful when you're meddling with what is essentially very deep buttons in the human mind that really none of us can protect. This is especially true in games like Eve, which really relies a lot on long term time investment, social bonding, and the kind of interconnectedness with your real life that means people actually get up in the middle of the night to respond to pings about tackled supers. Eve is real. So we all need to Eve responsibly. And that includes CCP.

But I digress. I understand what you're saying, and I agree. At the end of the day all gamers are really showing up asking to be psychologically tricked into enjoying themselves. But we're mostly fine with being tricked if it's tickling our innate sense of wonder, or achievement, or exploration of the unknown, or social dynamics. That's a EULA most people are happy to sign.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#1628 - 2016-04-14 20:05:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mister Ripley wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:
If you earn ISK while logged off than whatever that is you're doing should be nerfed :p

It's called industry.

I wouldn't say it's "earning ISK while logged off". The actual industry part is getting the materials and setting everything up and then selling it. The time to build is just a cap to regulate the production volume. Same goes for trading. It sound nice the think about it like "afk ISK" but that ISK is just the result of your logged in activity. You just get the money with a certain delay.
Like killing a rat, logging off and then getting the bounty.


I'd rather spend 20 min setting up industry jobs then going on a weekend break than spending the weekend grinding FW missions. This is why I like eve, I'm not disadvantaged for only having limited play time. I can earn my isk and gain sp just as fast as people who play every day. This idea punishes people like me as I simply cannot log in every day.


but people like you can have +5 implants plugged in all day every day, people who are active and in space most of the time can't so actually it balances out.
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1629 - 2016-04-14 20:07:21 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mister Ripley wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:
If you earn ISK while logged off than whatever that is you're doing should be nerfed :p

It's called industry.

I wouldn't say it's "earning ISK while logged off". The actual industry part is getting the materials and setting everything up and then selling it. The time to build is just a cap to regulate the production volume. Same goes for trading. It sound nice the think about it like "afk ISK" but that ISK is just the result of your logged in activity. You just get the money with a certain delay.
Like killing a rat, logging off and then getting the bounty.


I'd rather spend 20 min setting up industry jobs then going on a weekend break than spending the weekend grinding FW missions. This is why I like eve, I'm not disadvantaged for only having limited play time. I can earn my isk and gain sp just as fast as people who play every day. This idea punishes people like me as I simply cannot log in every day.


but people like you can have +5 implants plugged in all day every day, people who are active and in space most of the time can't so actually it balances out.

Getting podded often running level 4 missions in hisec, are you?
Stormin
Gone Krabbing
Solyaris Chtonium
#1630 - 2016-04-14 20:08:13 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Stormin wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Mister Ripley wrote:
Ravcharas wrote:
I agree. And I'm quite against this daily opportunity implementation, I think it'll hurt the game. However, it needs still be pointed out that in multiplayer games players enable gameplay for each other. That's true for Eve and it's true for TF2 and it's true for World of Tanks. Paying or not, there's at least a theoretical point of critical player mass, below which the game simply wither away. So in some sense the game needs to push or prod everyone to some extent, to encourage whatever behaviour is deemed to be positive for the game eco system as a whole.

True. This has already been pointed out alot of times in this thread. But shouldn't it be the gameplay that makes you want to play and not some psychological trick?


CCP used to believe this, yes.


We're all here because we enjoy the game play. If you didn't care about the game play you wouldn't want it to change.

It's 10k SP a day, who cares. You'll basically get it passively when you log on, and maybe miss a few when you don't, its still more SP than you had before.


More or less SP isn't the question. Why they are resorting to artificial reason to make us log in instead of making the game more interesting so we log every day instead of every other day for example?


Before I get into why I feel how I feel I just want to say this.

I don't feel pressured to log in to complete dailies for the SP. Since starting EVE there have always been players with more SP than me, and there always will be. Sure it's nice if I can get some extra SP real quick but overall the impact to me in game wont even be noticed.

CCP is a business, they're creating an incentive. The goal being more player connections on average per day. From what they've told us they used to have that incentive with the 24hr queue restrictions and it was lost with previous changes. The unique nature of CCPs business is that their bottom line is directly connected to players enjoyment. If CCP feels that players generally enjoy the game more when more people are flying around, then they're accomplishing both goals at the same time with this change. More players online, more players see them and feel like they're part of something, CCP makes more money.

They've also told us that players are more likely to stay connected longer once they've actually logged in. To me that is really not hard to believe. You might see a friend on, fly a new ship and want to pvp, warp to a belt for your rat kill and see some juicy ore, the list is endless given the nature of the game. It's unrealistic to expect that literally every person is just going to sign in, kill a rat, and log off right after. Even if that's they're intention chances are it wont play out that way. For people who have other commitments and only have time for something like that, its still there for them. Lastly for people who can't log on at all, I'll say it again, who cares? 10k SP is really not that much, sure it adds up over the course of a year but either way you're going to be able to accomplish what you want in this game without logging in literally every day to do you daily.

The point is they want people to log on, if only for a few minutes because they're banking on the fact that a percentage of those people will stay logged on for a decent amount of time. The best way to do this, no question, is to offer SP rewards. There is literally nothing else that would compare as an incentive.

I'm happy about the change, I feel like I wont have to go out of my way to kill something since I do that every time I log on anyways. I'm looking at is free SP whenever I play.
Darryn Lowe
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1631 - 2016-04-14 20:08:57 UTC
I can't understand the logic behind all the negativity for this feature.

I'm quite keen on reducing the single most tedious aspect of Eve Online, that of course is training.

I can't see any harm whatsoever to the gameplay of Eve with this feature. You still have to select your skills you want to train, you still have to train the other skills in order to train your desired skills all this feature does is reduce the time of those skills. How is this a bad thing?

To all those who complain that it forces you to play Eve Online daily... ummmmm... so you're complaining about a game mechanic that ENCOURAGES people to play daily but does NOT force them to play daily when you yourself clearly don't play Eve Online much anyway because clearly you're not playing daily. Why are you even here? Why do you even have an account?

I'm going to really enjoy this feature. Getting 10,000 skill points daily simply for having rats shoot at me while I'm mining is no skin off my nose at all. Big smile
Cookiesofdoom
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1632 - 2016-04-14 20:12:33 UTC
I really hope the devs read this:

As a person who has a background in psychology, multiple game experiences, and is currently still a newbro in eve. I think this idea has a lot of potential for new player retention, but it must be implemented carefully to not destroy the current balance of things.

The problems that come along with adding an incentive to anything is that it eliminates the intrinsic value of the task by placing an internal motivator on it. How this applies to eve is that this may motivate people to only log on for the rewards. Also it may facilitate burnout of the game.

However as a newbro I think that this system would be useful to help bridge the massive skill point gap between new and old players and also the gap between the newbro and accessing deeper and more engaging content.

To implement this system correctly (If you disagree I am more than willing to engage more about the reasons why) there must be a few guidelines that must be done:

Implement this system specifically for the newbro by putting a skillpoint cap that these missions will no longer be accessible: I'm thinking around 10-15m sp. 10-15 million sp allows for the individual to still have to put enough time in his character and invest in it but also it's not enough that later level players will feel slighted. The secondary benefit is that players already invested in the game and enjoy it for it's intrinsic value wont feel like that's being taken away from them.

Limit the amount of daily's one can do to 1 per account and 1 daily mission per day. In total 1 mission per day, regardless of what type of daily it is. But also in contrast provide a daily for each of the different career paths. So for miner: mine x amount of ore or gas. For a pirate: Engage in a fight in lowsec. For a hauler: Haul an item from one station to another. But have doing one of these mission lock the others out. This is to reduce the feeling the neccessity to engage in tasks they don't want to do. For example: If I enjoy pvp I don't want to feel like I have waste time to haul something everyday less I miss out on 10k sp.

By providing a daily for each career path it allows for people to continue to specialize in the field that they enjoy without feeling forced into activities they don't want to do.

So overall I think this could be a good method to provide player retention but only if it is focused on the new players and getting them up to speed. Adding this to all players would remove the time based progression system that many EVE players come to enjoy and one of the heavily motivating factors that keep the population in the game.

Advenat Bedala
Facehoof
#1633 - 2016-04-14 20:36:02 UTC
Darryn Lowe wrote:
I can't understand the logic behind all the negativity for this feature.

I'm quite keen on reducing the single most tedious aspect of Eve Online, that of course is training.

I can't see any harm whatsoever to the gameplay of Eve with this feature. You still have to select your skills you want to train, you still have to train the other skills in order to train your desired skills all this feature does is reduce the time of those skills. How is this a bad thing?

To all those who complain that it forces you to play Eve Online daily... ummmmm... so you're complaining about a game mechanic that ENCOURAGES people to play daily but does NOT force them to play daily when you yourself clearly don't play Eve Online much anyway because clearly you're not playing daily. Why are you even here? Why do you even have an account?

I'm going to really enjoy this feature. Getting 10,000 skill points daily simply for having rats shoot at me while I'm mining is no skin off my nose at all. Big smile


1) CCP breaking their word 1st time since very very long.
words from official devblog:
Quote:
It’s very important to note here that this means all the skillpoints available to buy on the market in EVE will have originated on other characters where they were trained at the normal rate


2) Bad experience from other games. It's been before - dailies that ruin some aspects of game or even entire game.

3) Grind is boring. And you'll have to grind for SP.
For comparison
+5 implants give 7.5*60*24 = 10800 SP/day
Reward simply too big.

4) Not universal daily. Some people don't shoot red crosses.

And even more arguments but for me 1st one is enough
Lexiana Del'Amore
Nouvelle Rouvenor
#1634 - 2016-04-14 20:38:07 UTC
much ado about nothing...
Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1635 - 2016-04-14 20:44:25 UTC
There was some article in some engineering publication I read a while ago, about uniqueness and the drive to conform to what everyone else is doing.

The short version of this is:
Someone creates something. Product, service, whatever. It's unique. It does something. It does it pretty well, but isn't very good at making money. It also applies to music (what's the subject and message of most songs?), TV shows (different faces, same stupid jokes) , and games (stupid cheap grindfests full of paywalls, and little interesting content).
They ask for advice and/or hire people to make more money with it. It's bland and generic, usually about cutting costs, or "appealing to a broader audience."
Following this advice, they end up with something which is a lot less unique, and very often lose an important part of what made the original worth developing in the first place.

A signature :o

Darryn Lowe
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1636 - 2016-04-14 20:48:33 UTC
Advenat Bedala wrote:

3) Grind is boring. And you'll have to grind for SP.
For comparison
+5 implants give 7.5*60*24 = 10800 SP/day
Reward simply too big.

4) Not universal daily. Some people don't shoot red crosses.

And even more arguments but for me 1st one is enough

I still call bollocks. You're still gaining skill points in the normal way this just adds 10,000 SP per day. Have I missed something?

Your so called "grind" is literally just kill a rat and gain 10,000 SP every 22 hours. It's not like it's going to break the bank or anything.

Hell, I don't actively attack rats. I mine and while sitting in belt I have my drones out. They go out and attack rats. So they'll kill one rat and I get 10,000 SP. It's not a grind for me like trying to gain kudos with a station in order to reduce tax on refining. THAT was a grind. This is just a nice little extra for me doing what I normally do.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1637 - 2016-04-14 20:50:01 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Mister Ripley wrote:
Ravcharas wrote:
I agree. And I'm quite against this daily opportunity implementation, I think it'll hurt the game. However, it needs still be pointed out that in multiplayer games players enable gameplay for each other. That's true for Eve and it's true for TF2 and it's true for World of Tanks. Paying or not, there's at least a theoretical point of critical player mass, below which the game simply wither away. So in some sense the game needs to push or prod everyone to some extent, to encourage whatever behaviour is deemed to be positive for the game eco system as a whole.

True. This has already been pointed out alot of times in this thread. But shouldn't it be the gameplay that makes you want to play and not some psychological trick?


CCP used to believe this, yes.


They've been behind the power curve for years and made a understandable but eventually wrong choice when prioritizing their limited resources.
Chi Aki
Event Horizon Expeditionaries
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1638 - 2016-04-14 20:54:29 UTC
I have concerns that a task based, daily SP reward per toon will drive eve play into a shopping list mentality, with the focus on the individual. I see this as a bad thing.

A lot of eve play is spontaneous and situational - something unusual comes up and it generates a momentum all of its own. Reds turn up, a wormhole is found, a site is scanned, a good market deal or contract appears, even someone special logs in! changes what you may do in eve on any given day.

With daily SP rewards - I have concerns that it will have a big impact on HOW people play and interact with others, to only get a little reward.

"Nope i cant do that cool thing/pvp fleet/move op/wormhole dive/run boosts for my friends/Corp because I haven't finished rotary dialing through my alts.... "

Daily rotary dialing of alts is also tedious and those doing it will feel happy to do it, yet exhausted by it and seek to 'get it out of the way' in the easiest, most painless way possible (and hence has no meaning). Those boycotting it because their eve play is already meaningful and busy, will feel vaguely like they are missing out and will see people around them become unavailable due to this 'feature' for the first hour? of their time.

I liked how it was put by Cookiesofdoom:

Quote:
The problems that come along with adding an incentive to anything is that it eliminates the intrinsic value of the task by placing an internal motivator on it. How this applies to eve is that this may motivate people to only log on for the rewards. Also it may facilitate burnout of the game.


No 'Daily rewards' for EVE per toon, please.
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#1639 - 2016-04-14 22:10:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
Malcanis wrote:


CCP used to believe this, yes.


They should rename themselves PPU as this idea stinks to high heaven.

No longer are CCP unique, now they just follow the herd. Sad.
Vasama
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#1640 - 2016-04-14 22:22:06 UTC
CCP is doing this all wrong. How about if it would be made so that unless you do the daily you would slowly deteriorate the existing skill points and by doing the daily you could hold to current SP level :).

Seriously I don't like the idea of daily. Some solutions how a new player could gain SP little faster would be welcomed but generic grind like that - no thank you.

If the daily is introduced I just wonder how many accounts will be unsubed due it, I see it as bigger threat to the game than walking stations. Does anyone remember why Hilmar apologized the players back then?

Vasama