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Ranafal
Doomheim
#981 - 2016-04-11 13:23:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranafal
CCP Rise wrote:
Okay, let's see if I can provide some context for our decision to add daily opportunities to eve and maybe answer some of your bigger questions.

Hm, now, after this explanation, the proposed idea looks very good to me, as i see clear reasoning and expected effects.
Though i already have a lot of SP on all my twinks, and some of them are jita-traders, so actually this will "hurt" me (i'll either lose those portions of daily-sp, or have to spend time on finding&killing a pair of rats by my jita alts) - i absolutely welcome this idea with SP-for-dailies

Also you are completely right about LP/isk reward - i'd completely ignore it in case of LP/isk rewards unless there was something about 100 millions of ISK reward for any single npc frig kill Big smile
Droplet of SP is a brilliant choice for reward, which will represent really good (but at the same time not critical/balance breaking) motivation for literally any character.

Right on!

P.S. But i still hope that you will add something similar motivational for PVP as well.

For example: If Tech3 cruiser is killed, then 20% of SP lost by its pilot (from subsystem skill), is distributed among his killers according to damage amounts in killmail.
Anthar Thebess
#982 - 2016-04-11 13:32:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
If you want to persuade players to undock and create content. Make them venture into places other than higsec.
10.000 SP for killing a rat ?
What about 5.000 sp more for venturing into lowsec, nullsec or WH space?
(if you are already there you need to change system to get it)


Better:
Make it weekly rewards instead of daily.
70.000 sp that can be gained in total.

10.000 sp for shooting an NPC
10.000 sp for venturing into lowsec/nullsec or WH space
10.000 sp for shooting a player x5 ( 4 hour colddown )

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
#983 - 2016-04-11 13:32:04 UTC
Well it looks like it's a big **** you to people who have many characters
Ranafal
Doomheim
#984 - 2016-04-11 13:33:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranafal
Aaron Honk wrote:
Well it looks like it's a big **** you to people who have many characters

While command links bonuses are a big ... to people who have single character. So let's remove bonuses, yeah Roll
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#985 - 2016-04-11 13:34:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Anthar Thebess wrote:
If you want to persuade players to undock and create content. Make them venture into places other than higsec.
10.000 SP for killing a rat ?
What about 5.000 sp more for venturing into lowsec, nullsec or WH space?
(if you are already there you need to change system to get it)


because that requires effort and people dont seem to like effort these days

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
leath4xr
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#986 - 2016-04-11 13:39:24 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
If you want to persuade players to undock and create content. Make them venture into places other than higsec.
10.000 SP for killing a rat ?
What about 5.000 sp more for venturing into lowsec, nullsec or WH space?
(if you are already there you need to change system to get it)


because that requires effort and people dont seem to like effort these days


How so? Have you ever left the system that you started in? If so you should understand the basics of traveling in eve.
Kym Mena
World Burning
#987 - 2016-04-11 13:42:10 UTC
Rise,
From reading your update it seems like this was a heads up about something that is happening, regardless what the actual players think or want, or what it will do to the game that we signed up for. In the future, could you note this in your OPs so that we know our feedback is not going to have any effect other than your personal amusement at our plight?

Thank you

(Our feedback was not the only thing wasted, your update has only increased my resolve to take no part in this carrot-stick gimmick of yours. Jolly good show, mate)
CowQueen MMXII
#988 - 2016-04-11 13:52:52 UTC  |  Edited by: CowQueen MMXII
I think your motivation is reasonable and, although many here might not believe that dailies will have the desired effect in the mid to long term, nobody will blame you for trying to implement some additional incentive for logging in.

CCP Rise wrote:

Why Skillpoints?
...

You are right, for (a reasonable amount of) Isk or LP I wouldn't do a thing. AUR might be something. On the other side, you are devaluating the SP aspect of my subscription time - again.

CCP Rise wrote:

Why so lazy?
Lots of feedback about the feature having such a minimalist implementation. First, let me clear up some confusion by saying that this feature has no relationship with the 'Tribute' system that was described last year at EVE Vegas. That feature has actually gone down a path more focused on goal setting and long term engagement than daily activity and so the daily part was broken off and given to our team separately.


Minimalist is not the right approach. If you really need/want/must have such a feature, do it right. For example: Create a complex achievement system over many aspects of the game, maybe based on the opportunities. Make some of these achievement one-time-only, some long term grindy and some are resetting on a regular basis. Give them different rewards (SP if you must, AUR is nice, Isk and LP for the low level, one time ones).
This way, you could reward someone for 5000h of mining, succesful mission number 10000 or just for undocking on 7 of 7 days in the last week (and reset this achievement every Sunday).

CCP Rise wrote:

With that in mind, we are trying to find the right mix of activity and accessibility. We want you to be able to collect this reward during a lunch break or a 10 minute period where your kids are in timeout but also want to make sure there's some real gameplay associated with it. We think getting to a belt or gate for an NPC is about the right mix and that's why we've landed with this.

Out of 12 characters I have 8 in wormhole space - nothing is done within 10 minutes in wh space... "Luckily", I just moved to a C2 where at least my combat chars will be able to do the suggested daily task rather quickly. If I was still in a C5, as I was for the most time of the last 4 years, this would have presented quite some effort for me- now imagine 80 characters in corp needing easy kills each and every day without having any "easy NPCs" around.

CCP Rise wrote:

Wow CCP
And finally the traditional MMO comparisons. While I found most of these comments to be the most entertaining, it's pretty absurd to think that any feature which can be found in a traditional MMO appearing in EVE means we are headed down the road to battlegrounds and dragon killing.


Personally, I don't care for those other MMOs, EVE is the first one I actually started playing and will also be the last one - at least when it comes to roleplaying MMOs in the 'classical' sense. There are reasons I play EVE and not anything else. One of those reasons is that (character-) progression is (mostly) independent from what I do, when I do things and how I do things.

And one last remark: Where does this 22h-thing come from? Why not simple reset the counter during downtime? Even if that means that people would only log in every other day directly before and after DT.

Moo! Uddersucker, moo!
Tyrant Scorn
#989 - 2016-04-11 13:55:41 UTC
OMG I am so angry arg arg... Burn in hell CCP... Growl grrrr... Boehoe !!

The Tyrant King

YouTube | Twitter | Twitch
MidnightWyvern
Fukamichi Corporation
SAYR Galactic
#990 - 2016-04-11 13:59:15 UTC
50 pages, wow.

I mean, as far as I'm concerned I agree with the post above me talking about varying it up a little more than just "shoot one rat for 10,000 SP".

One of the elements Dust 514 put in a while ago was a set of "Daily Missions" where you get a rotating set of objectives to do on the side of just playing matches that would get you varying bonuses. Some of those side objectives sucked, but in most cases it helped to vary up what you were doing in each match a little.

Right now the idea seems a little incomplete, to me. I think you guys should go back to the drawing board and look into a more detailed system that provides more varied incentives and involves more than just one activity.

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)
Sienna Vanjarc
Kimazora Corporation
#991 - 2016-04-11 13:59:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Sienna Vanjarc
I get those points, i don't like it nonetheless.

If its just about making us loging in more often at all, it would be enough to reward the first character per account and not every character. And make it just about logging in, not killing a rat, what is just a tedious hassle for the same effect, especially if you have to go through all characters on every account, to get your max. "log-in-bonus".
This would probably even make more people logging in, because the tedious and repetitive part is much smaller. I wouldn't like it, but it wouldn't be that annoying.

I get that we probably won't dissuade you from this for the most part, but please consider to try it with a less radical system first, maybe this even has a better effect for your goals.
Thea Yulivee
Hobbs End Industries
#992 - 2016-04-11 14:01:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Thea Yulivee
Well...I have said this on reddit and I will repeat it here.

I do not think that this is the right way to go. If you want to give out skillpoints (and i can understand where you are coming from on this one, although i don't necessarily agree), a possible increase of more than 15% (or as much as implants give people), will not be seens as a "nice bonus" but as a mandatory activity. We have the discussion about implants boiling up every now and then, because people feel that they are necessary, and this will carry over to those dailies as well. What does that mean? Well...apparently we will not be telling our newbros to "train their learning skills first" but to "not forget to kill their daily rat" [Does this sound ok to anyone? really?] - which is an activity that will only help with logins, not with participation in the game, by the way.

If you stick to skillpoints, lower the reward significantly! Staying on-par with +5 implants, will not lead to engaging gameplay and motivation, but to people feeling forced to do this every day and those people will feel as if they missed out big time, if they can't log in for some days. (It's not a nice to have bonus anymore on this level)

One other point i'd like to bring up..and this has been brought up before, but ignored in your post, Rise...What about people that don't have easy acess to rats? Wormholers are a thing, you know? We can't just kill a gate-rat or warp to a belt...in a highclass wormhole, which is actively used and lived in, that means that my members might start to worry most about getting their daily SP bonus than anything else. Which will in turn mean, that the first thing everyone does will be "finding an empire exit" (or a low-class WH, in case sleepers count...couldn't find a definitiv answer for this one) in order to get their bonus.
Honestly....having to scan for an exit, that needs to be kept open for members that are coming online later, in order to go to empire space, to find a rat in order to kill for the SP bonus, that is large enough to not be seens as a nice bonus, sounds like really damn bad game design.

Whilst I understand your motivation..to reward daily activity and understand why you chose SPs as a reward - the current proposed system will turn into a pain in the a** really quick and feel forced for so many players, that i can not see anything good come from this.


Edit:
As i have just seen the post above this one - I have to agree that you will most likely lose any positive effect from "being logged in already", if people have the feeling that they now need to log in every alt-char on every account as well, just to get their bonus. In the end they will end up on an alt-char that does nothing and will log-out anyway. So if you decide to go that way, make it at least once per account, not per character.
Hector Riley
Incorruptibles
#993 - 2016-04-11 14:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Hector Riley
One of the arguments against ISK/LP being awarded from these daily objectives is how it is will negatively impact the economy. Which is a perfectly valid concern. Why not have the objectives award ISK/LP if it involves PvP? This way we are ensuring asset loss is involved, thus preventing/reducing inflation.

I've also heard the idea of awarding small amounts of AUR from completing daily objectives. That could be a way to give dedicated players a taste of the SKIN system.
leath4xr
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#994 - 2016-04-11 14:20:43 UTC
Hector Riley wrote:
One of the arguments against ISK/LP being awarded from these daily objectives is how it is will negatively impact the economy. Which is a perfectly valid concern. Why not have the objectives award ISK/LP if it involves PvP? This way we are ensuring asset loss is involved, thus preventing/reducing inflation.


I think this is a valid concern/Idea. I think it might be viable to work it sorta like the bounty system where the reward could be based on loss/gain. You wouldn't want to be handing out 100m for newbie frigate kills. Then just limit it per day.
Hector Riley
Incorruptibles
#995 - 2016-04-11 14:24:51 UTC
leath4xr wrote:
I think this is a valid concern/Idea. I think it might be viable to work it sorta like the bounty system where the reward could be based on loss/gain. You wouldn't want to be handing out 100m for newbie frigate kills. Then just limit it per day.
Yes! I completely agree with that and I would like to propose a requirement for these PvP tasks: rookie ship and shuttle kills cannot be counted. Mitigating potential abuse adds value to the whole idea of daily objectives.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#996 - 2016-04-11 14:26:25 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


Why Dailies?
So first lets talk a little history. EVE had a daily logon incentive for most of it's existence: the 24 hour skill queue limit. Back in Phoebe, we removed those limitations. Now, at the time, we were of two minds internally. We didn't like the experience around being punished for not logging in to update your queue, but also knew that some of those logins might be leading to meaningful gameplay and we shouldn't lightly let go of them. We leaned to the side of a better experience and removed the limitations, hoping that the logins we were generating were fairly empty, rarely leading to more actual activity in the universe. Well, it turns out we were wrong about that. Now, with before and after data we can see that making it into the client is a huge step towards real activity, even if the reason for logging in in the first place seems artificial. So this leads us to where we are now, attempting to find ways to create more logins that also don't feel like such a punishment as the skill queue limitations did. This may not turn out to be the perfect alternative but that's what we're looking for.


This is the most important thing said here. What CCP had with the old skill que was not that unlike what other businesses do with 'loss leaders'. The actual activity (logging in to change a skill, logging in to kill a rat) isn't that valuable or satisfying in terms of content generation, but it very often leads to other things that are.

I think most of us have done it, logged in for a very simple purpose and ended up playing longer than we planned on (living in null I can't count how many times i got a jabber ping while I was just on to change a skill or move a cyno toon, my 1st Titan kill experience came about from this scenario).

That's why I don't have a problem with this idea, even if it goes against my reputation an an arch-purist when it comes to EVE (a reputation I don't jsut deserve, one that I relish Twisted ). People's concerns are valid, but if the (IMO) much more un-EVE-like inclusion of skill trading didn't hurt us too much (so far....), these dallies won't either.
Masumi Ieyasu
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#997 - 2016-04-11 14:26:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Masumi Ieyasu
I absolutely hate the premise of daily rewards, and find them depressively endemic in modern games. I should play a game on any particular day because I’m looking forward to the content it provides, not because it utilises manipulative psychology to encourage me to come back on a daily basis. I thought the removal of the 24hr skill queue was therefore a fantastic change, and don’t believe that a potential increase in activity from daily rewards is worth treating customers in this manner. Reading CCP Rise’s attempts to answer questions and reassure naysayers has actually made my opposition stronger, as I fundamentally disagree with CCP’s premise for this change.

The past few weeks have seen large increases in player activity as war has broken out across large portions of New Eden. There are numerous reasons for conflict breaking out now, but I believe one of these is that tweaks CCP made to many game mechanics are bearing fruit. Hopefully the Citadel expansion should add further nuances to EVE’s gameplay, and add to the excitement of the playerbase. I want to see EVE prosper and grow because of the content it provides, and hope CCP doesn’t feel it has to resort to psychological tricks to keep players coming back.

I also think daily rewards mesh poorly with a sandbox game such as EVE, as perhaps the greatest strength of a sandbox is the emergent gameplay it produces, and no daily rewards system can adequately cover this. You can provide rewards for killing rats etc., but will there be rewards for daily market pvp, scouting for fleets, mapping chains, or for being a corp diplomat, dictator, or thief? I suspect I won’t enjoy any form of daily rewards that is introduced, but with the current suggested implementation there are also going to be rather a lot of characters undocking to kill a single belt or anomaly NPC. People shouldn’t have an incentive to choose killing a random NPC over the far more interesting content that EVE already provides.

I do think that the SP system could do with some tweaks, although apparently that isn’t CCP’s intention here. I also would be slightly less opposed to an alternative reward to SP, but CCP Rise has stated that one of the reasons SP was chosen was exactly the same reason as why I would avoid it; because it is a powerful motivator.
Tomika
Doomheim
#998 - 2016-04-11 14:27:48 UTC
TinkerHell wrote:
Just no. I do not want to login each of my characters in everyday to kill a rat.


Don't then.
Stellar Compass
Secret Passage
#999 - 2016-04-11 14:28:45 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Okay, let's see if I can provide some context for our decision to add daily opportunities to eve and maybe answer some of your bigger questions.

Why Dailies?
So first lets talk a little history. EVE had a daily logon incentive for most of it's existence: the 24 hour skill queue limit. Back in Phoebe, we removed those limitations. Now, at the time, we were of two minds internally. We didn't like the experience around being punished for not logging in to update your queue, but also knew that some of those logins might be leading to meaningful gameplay and we shouldn't lightly let go of them. We leaned to the side of a better experience and removed the limitations, hoping that the logins we were generating were fairly empty, rarely leading to more actual activity in the universe. Well, it turns out we were wrong about that. Now, with before and after data we can see that making it into the client is a huge step towards real activity, even if the reason for logging in in the first place seems artificial. So this leads us to where we are now, attempting to find ways to create more logins that also don't feel like such a punishment as the skill queue limitations did. This may not turn out to be the perfect alternative but that's what we're looking for.

Why Skillpoints?
There's been a lot of feedback here that this kind of feature would be acceptable if the rewards were more monetary, either LP or ISK or something similar. There's a few reasons that doesn't really work and we feel pulled towards SP. I think the biggest one is that many people simply won't be motivated by LP or ISK, especially in the amounts we would be restricted to giving. SP simply has higher demand across more playstyles and player ages and that just makes it a more powerful incentive. Second big reason that we actually tried designs using item and ISK rewards and it quickly creates a lot of economic imbalances. Any time we are giving something away without much activity cost we are heavily sabotaging someone's gameplay. Whether it's because of devaluing LP, causing major inflation, or crashing item markets, it's all bad for you guys so we would rather avoid it.

Why so lazy?
Lots of feedback about the feature having such a minimalist implementation. First, let me clear up some confusion by saying that this feature has no relationship with the 'Tribute' system that was described last year at EVE Vegas. That feature has actually gone down a path more focused on goal setting and long term engagement than daily activity and so the daily part was broken off and given to our team separately. With that in mind, we are trying to find the right mix of activity and accessibility. We want you to be able to collect this reward during a lunch break or a 10 minute period where your kids are in timeout but also want to make sure there's some real gameplay associated with it. We think getting to a belt or gate for an NPC is about the right mix and that's why we've landed with this. That said, we've also deliberately tried to keep it simple so that we can deploy fast and adjust based on how it gets used. We are absolutely open to expanding the list of activities in the future and imagined that as one of the most likely first iterations. Small sidenote on activities: many of you mentioned PVP, remember that this is always problematic because the most effective way to PVP for rewards is just kill your own alt, which isn't very fun or interesting.

New players
Seeing a lot of talk about this feature in the context of new players and I can just say that this is not a new player targeted feature. We hope it's good for new players as well but for the feature to be successful it needs to be relevant to everyone.

Wow CCP
And finally the traditional MMO comparisons. While I found most of these comments to be the most entertaining, it's pretty absurd to think that any feature which can be found in a traditional MMO appearing in EVE means we are headed down the road to battlegrounds and dragon killing. If you look at Citadel feature list you should not have any concerns about our commitment to the EVE sandbox and the hardcore nature of our game.

Hope some of this helps. We are taking your feedback seriously and if we don't make any changes before release we will absolutely be following up shortly after release with changes based on feedback and behavior.


I like the idea where one can log on and do something for ten minutes, that can lead to other activities if time later allows, even if it is only going to lead sometimes to a quick chat in corp, that may lead to activity later.
Suggestions for such activity, killing a single rat, activating a mining or gas laser for a full cycle, Jumping a wormhole or scanning a signature, Salvaging a wreck.
All these would have at least one opportunity to be used in all areas of space from HS to wormholes and all in between. I believe the choice of skillpoints is reasonable, the number I hope might be raised a little, after release, take baby steps until people realise it is actually a good thing.
Good luck, I believe your core idea is sound and valuable.
Kovl
Jita Flipping Inc.
#1000 - 2016-04-11 14:31:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kovl
CCP Rise wrote:
Wow CCP
And finally the traditional MMO comparisons. While I found most of these comments to be the most entertaining, it's pretty absurd to think that any feature which can be found in a traditional MMO appearing in EVE means we are headed down the road to battlegrounds and dragon killing. If you look at Citadel feature list you should not have any concerns about our commitment to the EVE sandbox and the hardcore nature of our game.



Which part of adding a mindless daily chore repeated #characters times do you find entertaining or healthy for this (or any other) game ?

You're begining go down tihs road.

Are you really that blindfolded to not see how damaging this stuff is ?

For now it's 1 mob. Soon it will be 1 mob here, 10 mobs there, scan a signature, daytrip into wormhole, update 50 market orders, produce 100 pcs of ammo, start a research job, craft 5 rifters, gather 10 plants (erm I'm sorry, gather 10 pieces of Veldspar and s/mob/rat/g).

For everyone's favorite chunk of XP. Um I'm sorry, chunk of SP.


The sky is the limit how damaging all this crap can be.