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Citadels are now on Singularity

First post
Author
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#221 - 2016-03-24 22:26:14 UTC
Terrence Malick wrote:
Any idea why I am unable to anchor an Astrahus citadel?

I‘m a director of my corp, therefore I have the Station Manager role, I can launch the citadel for my corporation, I am able to position the citadel to a valid position (safe spot, more than 1000 km away from anything but my ship), but I can‘t anchor. I gave the structure a name and I selected three hours of vulnerability, the button „Anchor“ is unlocked, but whenever I click it, nothing happens at all.

Did you moved the citadel 5 km away from your ship. Then the shadow changes from red to white and you can anchor it. If you have already done this, ignore what i wrote here. Then i cannot help you.

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)

Nooien Soong
United Space Republic
#222 - 2016-03-24 22:31:01 UTC
I hope the following is a bug, since if not, will be a show stopper for our corp.

Whilst the fortizar was in the 24 hour anchor mode, my other corp mate had the option to scoop up the citadel, which he then did.

As a side test, he then left the corp into a NPC corp, and we did the same test, and he managed to scoop up the citadel whilst it was still anchoring.

I'm really hoping this is a bug since we're a single TZ corp and can't have someone sitting there for 24 hours defending it during the anchor period.

Also, we've now manage to "lose" the deployed citadel. We all bookmarked it, but regardless of where we are in system, there's no warp to option, only approach/dock even though it's not on grid.
Jonathan Rotineque
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#223 - 2016-03-24 22:42:56 UTC
Currently in a POS you simply enter the shield and you can access / move almost anything. Will pilots similarly be able to access personal and corp hangars [that they have rights too] while outside Citadel on the Tether?
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#224 - 2016-03-24 22:48:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark O'Helm
Jonathan Rotineque wrote:
Currently in a POS you simply enter the shield and you can access / move almost anything. Will pilots similarly be able to access personal and corp hangars [that they have rights too] while outside Citadel on the Tether?

Iirc this is indeed the plan, for cap pilots f.e. cannot dock in an astrahus, but can access their hangar Inside.

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)

Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#225 - 2016-03-24 22:56:03 UTC
Nooien Soong wrote:
I hope the following is a bug, since if not, will be a show stopper for our corp.

Whilst the fortizar was in the 24 hour anchor mode, my other corp mate had the option to scoop up the citadel, which he then did.

As a side test, he then left the corp into a NPC corp, and we did the same test, and he managed to scoop up the citadel whilst it was still anchoring.

I'm really hoping this is a bug since we're a single TZ corp and can't have someone sitting there for 24 hours defending it during the anchor period.

Also, we've now manage to "lose" the deployed citadel. We all bookmarked it, but regardless of where we are in system, there's no warp to option, only approach/dock even though it's not on grid.

You cannot even warp to the bookmark from the persons and places window? Weired.
I couldnt warp to it first time, because, it said i were not in a fleet. When i joined one with an alt, i could.
I could even use the -warp to fleetmember-command, when she was docked inside the citadel. If this is intended, i like it.

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)

Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#226 - 2016-03-24 22:59:57 UTC
Btw. I placed the Citadel exactly at an instawarpout point about 1000km from my currently Homestation. In that way i could warp between them without being targeted. Nice.

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)

Nooien Soong
United Space Republic
#227 - 2016-03-24 23:09:34 UTC
Mark O'Helm wrote:
Nooien Soong wrote:
I hope the following is a bug, since if not, will be a show stopper for our corp.

Whilst the fortizar was in the 24 hour anchor mode, my other corp mate had the option to scoop up the citadel, which he then did.

As a side test, he then left the corp into a NPC corp, and we did the same test, and he managed to scoop up the citadel whilst it was still anchoring.

I'm really hoping this is a bug since we're a single TZ corp and can't have someone sitting there for 24 hours defending it during the anchor period.

Also, we've now manage to "lose" the deployed citadel. We all bookmarked it, but regardless of where we are in system, there's no warp to option, only approach/dock even though it's not on grid.

You cannot even warp to the bookmark from the persons and places window? Weired.
I couldnt warp to it first time, because, it said i were not in a fleet. When i joined one with an alt, i could.
I could even use the -warp to fleetmember-command, when she was docked inside the citadel. If this is intended, i like it.


unfortunately, didn't have anyone docked in it. We have two setup in the system, and whilst the second was anchoring, we were testing the weapons on the first one. Only when we tried to do an alternate fit on the second, found we couldn't warp to it anymore.

Not the end of the world, but next time will park one next to a planet warp in point Big smile
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#228 - 2016-03-24 23:57:14 UTC
Maybe you can probe it down?

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)

Doddy
Excidium.
#229 - 2016-03-25 00:11:46 UTC
Little Bad Wolf wrote:
[quote=Doddy]

How exactly does it do that, it will have a maximum dps and only so much ewar, and it doesn't move, an attacking force can make itself immune to any danger with just a few logistics. You could snipe it with nagas or something from 250km away, go at it at point blank with a spider tank design of some sort. The maths of it will be figured out instantly, and it will be no more dangerous to a prepaired attacker after that than a sansha battletower is.


Basically you are saying you hate eve. and everything it stands for, nice.

Why can they "not possibly fight" these entities? None of the war dec alliances field anything more than 20-30 in thier (rare) structure bashes and those are usually multiboxing talos against unarmed/offline towers. Usually they are fielding a dozen guys. If the industry corp, who gets to choose when the fight happens multiple times over an extended period, is incapable of fielding a force to fight this with all the advantages the citadel gives them they simply do not deserve to have a citadel, that is eve. If a corp that weak must continue its existence it should join an alliance, that is the whole point of alliances, mutual defence.

Obviously paying a defence force would cost more than the war dec cost. I mean you could have defended it for free but you divested yourself of your responsibilities so obviously you need to pay a premium.

It is amazing how you underestimate people. Truth is unless you have annoyed somebody so much the war deccers brought 10 times the force needed to actually kill the citadel a half dozen guys in anything from bombers to ewar cruisers will disrupt an attack enough for the citadel to do the rest.

An Asturhaus can change its weaponry instantly to suit the size of its target, it does omni damage, it cannot be out ranged, it cannot be firewalled, it cannot be jammed. On its own it fields the damage of two battleships and a carrier with no range constraints. it can also field the jamming of a scorpion, the tackle of recons and the neuting of a 100k range curse. All on a platform which cannot be killed for at least 30 minutes. It can also source defenders with replacement ships.

So you are basically saying that it is unfair that a corp who "cannot possibly win" a fight at a time of their choosing in high sec with the back up of an unkillable carrier, 2 battleships and 3 recons having had the possibility of arranging allies before hand might get bitten by "don't fly what you can't afford to lose"?
Doddy
Excidium.
#230 - 2016-03-25 00:14:24 UTC
Nooien Soong wrote:
Mark O'Helm wrote:
Nooien Soong wrote:
I hope the following is a bug, since if not, will be a show stopper for our corp.

Whilst the fortizar was in the 24 hour anchor mode, my other corp mate had the option to scoop up the citadel, which he then did.

As a side test, he then left the corp into a NPC corp, and we did the same test, and he managed to scoop up the citadel whilst it was still anchoring.

I'm really hoping this is a bug since we're a single TZ corp and can't have someone sitting there for 24 hours defending it during the anchor period.

Also, we've now manage to "lose" the deployed citadel. We all bookmarked it, but regardless of where we are in system, there's no warp to option, only approach/dock even though it's not on grid.

You cannot even warp to the bookmark from the persons and places window? Weired.
I couldnt warp to it first time, because, it said i were not in a fleet. When i joined one with an alt, i could.
I could even use the -warp to fleetmember-command, when she was docked inside the citadel. If this is intended, i like it.


unfortunately, didn't have anyone docked in it. We have two setup in the system, and whilst the second was anchoring, we were testing the weapons on the first one. Only when we tried to do an alternate fit on the second, found we couldn't warp to it anymore.

Not the end of the world, but next time will park one next to a planet warp in point Big smile


Just bookmark in space next to it rather than bookmark the structure itself. Those bookmarks don't work because the access system is not in yet. You can probe down the one you already deployed though.
Doddy
Excidium.
#231 - 2016-03-25 00:26:05 UTC
Shalashaska Adam wrote:
Are their figures available currently for the expected dps output of a medium citadel?


Depends what you are shooting at. There are different missile types for different size targets and different launchers also. Each launcher can do anything from 180 dps (anti frigate missiles on anti sub-cap launcher) to 11000 dps (anti supercap missile on anti capital launcher). Medium citadel has 2 launcher hard points, large has 3, extra large has 4. All do omni damage. So 360 to 22000 dps on a medium from missile damage. Then you have the fighters which is the same situation, varies depending which fighters you use which will ddepend which target you are fighting. Fighter stats are not correct on sisi atm so dps figures are meaningless. It is however roughly the same capability as a supercarrier.
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#232 - 2016-03-25 01:39:09 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Shalashaska Adam wrote:
Are their figures available currently for the expected dps output of a medium citadel?


Depends what you are shooting at. There are different missile types for different size targets and different launchers also. Each launcher can do anything from 180 dps (anti frigate missiles on anti sub-cap launcher) to 11000 dps (anti supercap missile on anti capital launcher). Medium citadel has 2 launcher hard points, large has 3, extra large has 4. All do omni damage. So 360 to 22000 dps on a medium from missile damage. Then you have the fighters which is the same situation, varies depending which fighters you use which will ddepend which target you are fighting. Fighter stats are not correct on sisi atm so dps figures are meaningless. It is however roughly the same capability as a supercarrier.

... and the skill requirement is a joke compared to a supercarrier. The only bad thing is, you cannot move. LolSo, no dodging under enemy missles. Its like a supermarauder in bastion. Bear

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)

Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#233 - 2016-03-25 05:11:56 UTC
Doddy wrote:

Basically you are saying you hate eve. and everything it stands for, nice.

Why can they "not possibly fight" these entities? None of the war dec alliances field anything more than 20-30 in thier (rare) structure bashes and those are usually multiboxing talos against unarmed/offline towers. Usually they are fielding a dozen guys. If the industry corp, who gets to choose when the fight happens multiple times over an extended period, is incapable of fielding a force to fight this with all the advantages the citadel gives them they simply do not deserve to have a citadel, that is eve. If a corp that weak must continue its existence it should join an alliance, that is the whole point of alliances, mutual defence.


TBH you don't know what an "industry" corp is.

Lets abstract from the current citadel state and move to a further point in time where medium citadel is supposed to replace curent POSes.

POSes in highsec are currently used (among other things. Maybe some people have other uses, but that's what I do with mine) for T2 and T3 invention/production. First because they have bonuses that overcome upkeep costs at pretty modest manufacturing volumes. Second because that's the only way to reversse-engineer. Stations simply don't allow for it. If you want T3 reverse-engineering, you must use a POS.

Now contrary to popular belief both activities DO NOT require a large corporation. In fact, one of the appeals of the crius expansion was the talk on then-undisclosed "team" mechanic which people first assumed to be a form of actual player-to-player teamwork that would benefit manufacturing if you wanted to do it with your friends. Sadly it turned out to be an underwhelming bidding contest.

The T2/T3 manufacturing itself does not require a large corporation. In fact, unless you also deal in resource extraction, which quite frankly you should not be doing because it's economically sensible to specialize, it's easier to manage the production chain alone, and the only benefit of the corp is sharing POS upkeep costs (and quite frankly a single person can easily load a small tower with enough work for it to be profitable).

I suspect heavily that the current HiSec POS population is part compression tower for mining corps (those guys do have numbers), two parts individual R&D towers for people doing solo T2/T3 production.

The removal of a viable solo R&D tower option will just sqeeze the small business out of the market and impose a minimum entry requirements for these activites (at least in regards to T3. T2 can be reasonably done in stations, possibly less profitable, but manageable) that quite frankly does not correspond to how people actually are comfortable doing these things.
Little Bad Wolf
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#234 - 2016-03-25 08:27:55 UTC
Doddy wrote:
It is amazing how you underestimate people.


I think you are underestimating how gamed and straightforward a "fight" against a medium citadel will become as soon as a comp made to counter them is developed. Also underestimating the capability and the lengths of boredom any of the large 100-war merc alliances will go to, just to knock over everyones billion+ isk sandcastles.

After that factor is worked out, once again, you are just talking about the success rate of little indy guys fighting the big wardec alliances, and we don't need any theorycrafting to see exactly how that works already.

As I said numerous times, the problem is not about whether or not the attacker is bringing a force that "deserves" to destroy the citadel, because if it can, then it by definition does. The problem is that these medium citadels are meant to be the space homes of small indy corps and even single people in highsec, and that is just unsustainable for the numerous little guys in the face of current wardec mechanics and the major wardeccing entities, if the ability to dismantle before a war is non-existent.

Ace Aideron
Red Falcon Group
#235 - 2016-03-25 09:41:42 UTC
Little Bad Wolf wrote:
I think you are underestimating how gamed and straightforward a "fight" against a medium citadel will become as soon as a comp made to counter them is developed. Also underestimating the capability and the lengths of boredom any of the large 100-war merc alliances will go to, just to knock over everyones billion+ isk sandcastles.

Time will tell -- and from what I've read, POSs should still be around for at least another year, so there's a long time still for CCP to polish and refine the mechanics.

At the moment on Sisi, station guns are amazing powerful. With a medium citadel, I would be shocked if you couldn't destroy much more isk than you would lose.

Structure missiles can have a range of about 750 km, with more than 11,000 DPS on the large missiles, or 490 DPS on the smaller ones. Plus neuts, webs, target painters, fighters, and so on.

With that kind of range, Logi will be vulnerable as well.

I had a carrier attack the Keepstar I setup, and it was destroyed in just a few seconds (even without resorting to the DD).

Little Bad Wolf wrote:
After that factor is worked out, once again, you are just talking about the success rate of little indy guys fighting the big wardec alliances, and we don't need any theorycrafting to see exactly how that works already.

As I said numerous times, the problem is not about whether or not the attacker is bringing a force that "deserves" to destroy the citadel, because if it can, then it by definition does. The problem is that these medium citadels are meant to be the space homes of small indy corps and even single people in highsec, and that is just unsustainable for the numerous little guys in the face of current wardec mechanics and the major wardeccing entities, if the ability to dismantle before a war is non-existent.

Although I don't think it will be difficult to survive and prosper in a medium structure, mitigating the risk of living in one is an important part of Eve -- building an active defense, finding and joining the right alliance, and so on.

Look at those of us who live in null, where there isn't a need for a wardec before attacking. We survive and prosper just fine. In fact, if you're in the right alliance, it's usually safer in null than in high!
Terrence Malick
Standard Fuel Company
#236 - 2016-03-25 09:55:56 UTC
Mark O'Helm wrote:
Terrence Malick wrote:
Any idea why I am unable to anchor an Astrahus citadel?

I‘m a director of my corp, therefore I have the Station Manager role, I can launch the citadel for my corporation, I am able to position the citadel to a valid position (safe spot, more than 1000 km away from anything but my ship), but I can‘t anchor. I gave the structure a name and I selected three hours of vulnerability, the button „Anchor“ is unlocked, but whenever I click it, nothing happens at all.

Did you moved the citadel 5 km away from your ship. Then the shadow changes from red to white and you can anchor it. If you have already done this, ignore what i wrote here. Then i cannot help you.


Yes, I did. Thanks for trying nevertheless :)
Terrence Malick
Standard Fuel Company
#237 - 2016-03-25 10:16:14 UTC
Someone on SiSi told me in the Singularity chat channel that anchoring is bugged right now…
Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#238 - 2016-03-25 10:48:02 UTC
With a medium in highsec, obviously the DD's and the impressive anti-capital missile dps is off the table, so its just a matter of what kind of applied subcap damage a medium can do against, for instance, a force of heavy resist small sig T3's with T2 logi.

No experienced wardeccer is going to be taking losses to attack medium citadels, so it really does just come down to what kind of composition is required to handle them with negligable risk, it will be figured out and figured out fast.

The way CCP have spoken about medium citadels, implies that even a solo player can defend one in highsec just by being there to respond to an attack. I don't currently see how that will be realistic, unless CCP imagine only an equally sized enemy is going to be interested in having the killmail.
Mark O'Helm
Fam. Zimin von Reizgenschwendt
#239 - 2016-03-25 11:40:40 UTC
Shalashaska Adam wrote:
With a medium in highsec, obviously ... the impressive anti-capital missile dps is off the table...

Why?
Do they not work in Highsec?
Or do they not any Damage to a Battleship for example, when it is webbed, maybe doubble webbed?

"Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen. Aber Frauen wollen keine Frauenversteher. Weil Frauenversteher wissen, was Frauen wollen." (Ein Single)

"Wirklich coolen Leuten ist es egal, ob sie cool sind." (Einer, dem es egal ist)

CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#240 - 2016-03-25 11:44:28 UTC
Nooien Soong wrote:
I hope the following is a bug, since if not, will be a show stopper for our corp.

Whilst the fortizar was in the 24 hour anchor mode, my other corp mate had the option to scoop up the citadel, which he then did.

As a side test, he then left the corp into a NPC corp, and we did the same test, and he managed to scoop up the citadel whilst it was still anchoring.

I'm really hoping this is a bug since we're a single TZ corp and can't have someone sitting there for 24 hours defending it during the anchor period.

Also, we've now manage to "lose" the deployed citadel. We all bookmarked it, but regardless of where we are in system, there's no warp to option, only approach/dock even though it's not on grid.


Yeah, this totally sounds like a bug!

We are aware of an issue where not all bookmarks are working as expected.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters