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Citadels are now on Singularity

First post
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#561 - 2016-04-25 19:56:11 UTC
When using the structure browser to look for "Services" there does not appear to be a way to tell if you have access to the service or not.

For example im in Devoid....there are a couple of other citadels showing up in the structure browser - I can see the services being offered, however how do I know if I have access to these services? I cannot seem to right click on them in the list to set destination so my assumption is I cannot access them. If that is the case then why have them show up ? There should be an easy way to sort through the list of stations to show those that you can and cannot access. Especially if you are looking for a specific service. In addition to just having a bunch of citadels on the screen that are of no use to you if you cannot access them.

I can see why someone who wants to go blow up citadels would want a full list regardless of access rights.....but for those of us shopping, selling, reprocessing, compressing, knowing what is open and what is closed is much more valuable.

School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#562 - 2016-04-26 02:23:23 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Just one more time to hope you see why compression needs to be treated separate in roles and taxable

You guys want to push trading into player citadels well if any of these do manage to spring up odds are they will have very low if not 0 refining tax in order to incentives people who sell large quantities of minerals to use their market.

What this means is if you set up a refinery structure you won't be able to tax it anywhere that uses that market citadel particularly in hs.

There is very little reason for anyone to refine in your citadel even if it's free do to the convenience they gain from compressing in order to move their ore to sell. Same goes off they are building they will want to compress the ore in order to build closer to a market.

So unless there is a good reason why this service should not be taxable please make it so.

Also this change is gong to make it where there is little to no uncompressed ore sold in eve is this intended?

CCP, can we get an update for this please?! This is really important feature to have and Lugh have made really good explanation above.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#563 - 2016-04-26 02:50:55 UTC
please we haven't heard from a dev since before fan fest
Circumstantial Evidence
#564 - 2016-04-26 08:02:32 UTC
They can tweak data values up to the last second, but if a feature requires a UI element (text or number entry box, button) and it's not on the test server now, I doubt it will appear on patch day.
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#565 - 2016-04-26 13:43:48 UTC
The system name isn't automatically prefixed to the citadel name in places like the personal assets window. Is this intended behaviour?
Masao Kurata
Caldari State
#566 - 2016-04-27 05:53:47 UTC
Okay I was going to do some rare good posting but I'm enjoying Dark Souls III way too much for that so this is just going to be a disorganised brain dump:

  • Tethering is a horrible game breaking thing, even worse than pos force fields without any of the necessity of pos force fields (since pos facilities had to be accessed while undocked while citadel facilities are accessed while docked). It's essentially a huge sphere where you aren't allowed to play EVE. No fighting, invincible links (off grid links are still a thing for now and even if they were this would be invincible links for citadel defense, which is way too heavily weighted towards the defender already), risk free cynos (you have to break the tether to cyno but I don't think anyone cares about that)... actually this needs another bullet point! I did say I wasn't going to be doing good posting.
  • Warping off including alignment is risk free. Yes, pos force fields have this too (and instas exist but they are not guaranteed safety) but it's not really a good thing, eventually these will be used instead of stations rather than as well as them and it removes a location that pvp can happen, hell you can't even scan someone. If that's not broken enough for you, this next thing deserves a bullet point of its own...
  • Guess what you can do while defending? Align a tethered fleet to another astrahus (that's a medium if you haven't been paying attention, the citadel initials are AFK in order of size, which reflects how you can play while defending them, more on that later), preactivate weapons and run sebos, alpha a guy and immediately warp to the astrahus. You only become lockable when you start to lock and with high scan res and fast input the tick advantage means you're in warp before you can be pointed, but this is worse than you think. During warp, your weapons timer is running down. If it reaches 10 seconds or less by the time you land, you will be tethered to the citadel before you're vulnerable, so to recap you start invulnerable, alpha a guy, become invulnerable again without anyone having a chance to lock you. Yeaaaaaah. Roll
  • The commitment for an attacker is crazy, particularly in k-space and especially in highsec. Apart from obscene EHP when you can't use dreads (apart from not being in this patch, allowing neutral dreads in highsec would be game breaking except maybe if they're forced to be permanently suspect or a new flag which works a bit differently from suspect but allows engagement), the requirement to attack at whatever off hours the owner chooses (which you can't even see, you can only see how long until the next vuln - you really should be able to view the complete timetable and the next week's if different), the lack of any reason not to have each citadel in its own shell corp because... I'll get back to this point, first a thing about shell corps.
  • The access list system means that there is little to no reason to have citadels in corp, you can assign every right to the individual level, so anyone gaming the system which nobody ever does in EVE as you know will create a shell corp for each highsec citadel to protect corporation members from attack by hiding in NPC corporations, not that this is the first broken thing about them but congrats you just made wardecs even more pointless. Look, I like the rights administration interface but decoupling everything from corporations is just giving people less reasons to be in them, and there aren't enough reasons already.
  • So yeah, apart from EHP, vuln hours, shell corps so if using a highsec wardec your only possible target is one citadel if the owner knows anything about the mechanics, which might be uncommon initially but this will be become standard practice in time, there's this little issue. No, I don't mean the offenses, plenty has been posted about them already since they're obvious, I mean that by setting vuln to 10:00-11:00 on three or six days for an astrahus or fortizar respectively, your citadel is completely unkillable. If only someone had wondered what happens when a repair timer crosses downtime back in September. Contrary to the blog post, reinforcement is not relative to the start of the repair timer (i.e. when you attack), but to when HP reaches 0, which means that the second bash takes place at least half an hour later than the first and the third bash at least an hour later. Whoops, this means that if vuln is an hour before downtime, a repair timer has to cross downtime and as it turns out, this resets the citadel to invulnerable. I would have submitted EBR-77305 and EBR-77399 earlier, but vulnerability timers were straight up not working for a long time on sisi, so testing was not possible.
  • Oh and even when working correctly a siege in k-sapce takes an absolute minimum of 7 days, 1 hour and 30 minutes because the 24 hour and 144 hour reinforcement timers and dps caps. Apart from being stupidly long, that's longer than a standard wardec. Seriously what possible call is there for this when you're coddling players with asset safety anyway?
  • There's more stuff that's broken by design and probably quite a few things I didn't even find in my tests, but I have a sun to praise.

Apart from obviously broken things, it's just a cheap structure someone plopped down, it doesn't need to be so powerful and invulnerable. The only content even allowed around citadels is structure bashing (and free shooting galleries for owners when someone tries) and you're seriously overestimating people's appetite for structure bashing at weird hours.
Circumstantial Evidence
#567 - 2016-04-27 12:46:08 UTC
wow. I read that entire post. Good stuff :)
Masao Kurata wrote:
so if using a highsec wardec your only possible target is one citadel if the owner knows anything about the mechanics
So... I wardec a citadel that is in a corp of 1. I don't think the "real owner" group can bring a fleet to help defend it, they are risk-averse after all, so all I have to do is figure out if I can tank what the citadel puts out or keep losses manageable. Wouldn't this result in a good number of (fairly boring fights) Citadel KM's? I'm thinking Astrahus, mainly.

(That's assuming the attacker doesn't run into the timer setup situation that you note. I think CCP will be quick to make adjustments & save/restore states across DT, if they discover some citadels can be made invulnerable by a choice of vulnerability time.)

It is possible in the grand scheme that Citadels are not the thing we are supposed to want to attack... so much. They are a stepping stone on a path which includes industrial arrays, which will add more value to the game for owning corps. Owners of those may have to face hard choices of weakening their defenses, in exchange for maximizing their industrial bonuses.
Masao Kurata
Caldari State
#568 - 2016-04-27 16:13:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Masao Kurata
Ah I forgot to mention something about shell corps: in the event that the owner actually decides he needs to field a defense fleet, he can simply ally his corp to the shell corp for free.

Tethering is the main reason I'm so bothered by citadels being so unassailable, citadels offer more safety than poses or stations. I also intentionally omitted some REALLY broken things you can do with tethering (yes it gets worse than untouchable machariel fleets and a return of links inside force fields) because I don't want to even give people those ideas.

Also, people will set vuln to 10:00 without any knowledge of nor intention of exploiting the immortal citadel conditions simply because it's a time which greatly inconveniences attackers.

I also forgot to mention that the repair timer after anchoring is useless in highsec because you could have to dec someone the instant they set a citadel down to take advantage of it, since wars take 24 hours to come into effect. Hmm. There was something else but I already forgot...