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Dev blog: Unboxing the new Camera in EVE Online

First post First post First post
Author
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#361 - 2016-02-14 22:15:49 UTC
a new shortcut menu tab of consolidated camera controls would be greeeat thaaaanks
Natural CloneKiller
Commonwealth Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#362 - 2016-02-14 22:39:21 UTC
Conjaq wrote:
I like the idea, and i welcome a new camera. but.....

* The scroll speed when zooming in and out, is uncontrollable
* The camera movement orbit function feels sluggish....

And worst of all
* I get nausea using it.. Rendering it completely impossible to use.




I agree the new camera movement is terrible. Personally I went straight back to the old one as pvp with that new camera was shocking.

Please do not get ride of the old one.
Gary Webb
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#363 - 2016-02-14 22:39:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Gary Webb
I dont know if this has already been mentioned, I'm at work and dont have time to read all the comments.

First: The new camera zooms you all the way into the back of your ship when you undock. Personally I hate this. It is also very unnerving when undocking a jump freighter and other large ships. Other than that, the orbit camera is great.

Second: Yaw needs to be added to first person camera. and Full 360 degree pitch. I know it could be disorenting but it severly limits the capabilities of manual piloting when you cannot do a full roll or loop. you hit that 180 degree barrier.

Third and final: on the mass targeting (holding CTRL+click drag) to drag the square in space, that square should only target active overview settings. Trying to use it for anyhting other than savlage is impossible, especially on the pirate gate havens. I end up with a full row of snake astroid targets. I also hate the lack of the automatic tracking of selected target and no custom tracking positions! this makes PVP extremely difficult as you cant just click the enemy on the overview and have it snap right to them!

Please fix these issues! these camera are a great addition but they have a bunch of minor annoyances,
Trajan Unknown
State War Academy
Caldari State
#364 - 2016-02-14 22:47:54 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
a new shortcut menu tab of consolidated camera controls would be greeeat thaaaanks



Yeah, the old shortcuts are there but they don´t work. Problem seems to be, the new shortcuts are no real shortcuts. You have to hold the "track" shortcut and click or you have to hit it twice. Plus it "track" doesn´t work on the map. And if you track sth and open the d-scan map the cam is not aligned to the object you are tracking.
Calavoow2
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#365 - 2016-02-14 22:50:00 UTC
Let me just reiterate my post in the february feedback thread in the proper topic (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6332437#post6332437)

Calavoow2 wrote:

When tracking an ship in space with the new camera, the camera stops tracking the ship as soon as the user presses warp to somewhere. This means you can see when someone presses warp to when you are tracking a ship. But most importantly, you cannot track where people are warping any more with the tracking camera. You used to be able to track a ship until it disappeared off grid, so that you could get a good sense of direction where they warped (the middle of the screen would point at it).
Officer Pressly
Doomheim
#366 - 2016-02-14 22:58:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Officer Pressly
This is important to me, I cannot play the game if you remove the old camera and havent implemented the funtionality these 3 Points adds in the old camera:

1 - Toggle tracking camera on and off. This functionality, is THE functunality affecting my gameplay every time i play the game. Giving me 2-3 extra klicks everytime I am searching for something, is not working for me.

2 - When tracking Object, camera offsets from ship. Litterally Bounces. I can not see how this is good in any scenario. I'm very dependent due to my gameplay, to keep a Visual track of my ships state, and at the same time be able to fast track what is happening in Space Close and further away, having a camera bob back and forth, is VERY BAD. Evil I can not even see my ship sometimes...

3. Zoom handling is out of Control. I personally wheel zoom in combat to quickly go in and out. It has alot of situational awarness buildt in to it. But with the new camera It is really hard to have any precision at all. A-B testing beween the wew and old, shows that you basically speed up the handling, and doesnt make it stop as Instant as the old did.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#367 - 2016-02-14 23:51:57 UTC
I have no need for the camera tracking feature personally, never have and probably never will. Why is it taking such an inordinate amount of space on my GUI I will never understand. Okay, fine, rewrite the code. But can I just get the current type of camera i.e. one that does not simulate tracking and foul up aspect ratio whenever it feels like it.
And please make it so it can remember settings, because readjusting the camera after every jump will get annoying fast. How something like that got past testing is another thing I can't understand.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#368 - 2016-02-14 23:56:12 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
I have no need for the camera tracking feature personally, never have and probably never will. Why is it taking such an inordinate amount of space on my GUI I will never understand. Okay, fine, rewrite the code. But can I just get the current type of camera i.e. one that does not simulate tracking and foul up aspect ratio whenever it feels like it.
And please make it so it can remember settings, because readjusting the camera after every jump will get annoying fast. How something like that got past testing is another thing I can't understand.

It didn't get past testing. This is testing.
Octavius Gaius
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#369 - 2016-02-15 01:13:44 UTC
Why does the new camera have less "FOV Zoom in" (ALT+Mouse-wheel) then the old camera (ctrl+L+R mouse)? I hope its not because people complained about "Low res. sky-box" so ccp just reduced maximum zoom in, instead of fixing sky box.

I am one of those players that always used tactical overlay. I find it ridiculous that with new camera I CAN NOT change my field of view in the tactical camera I have to switch to orbital camera first then alt+mouse-wheel, WHY?

With old camera I could center tracking position for d-scanning or create custom tracking position all from my HUD. How do I do this with new?

Also most Importantly why cant I toggle tracking camera ON or off this is the worst.

Lots of glitches, shacking camera, camera gets left behind when I warp, If I am in map mode and I jump my map moves on me. And much more!

Besides being more cinematic then the old camera the new camera Is a Huge step backwards in terms of functionality. Very much like the new map, if i set new map to jumps or kills per hr. EVERYTHING is the same color between 1-100 kills or jumps (not enough color variation) but the new map is still optional in a month the new camera will be mandatory Please fix the problems before doing this!




Ashterothi
Aideron Robotics
#370 - 2016-02-15 01:51:00 UTC
OK last we heard, they wanted us to check out the V scan option. So I have.

Before people keep talking about tracking camera try out the v click option, and then imagine if that was toggleable to just happen whenever you clicked on something. Would that be better? Worse? Why?

Second, I did have a bug, I tried to bind it to MOUSE3 to make it so I just click both buttons for a scan, well when I do that then the game acts as if the modifier key is always pressed so I get a yellow bounding box, and it tries to dscan whatever I click. Setting it back to V corrects the issue.


Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#371 - 2016-02-15 02:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Well after some more testing I realized I was a bit wrong about why the inertia effect feels so bad. I also updated my older post. Basically I thought the inertia effect in itself was the problem, but after someone mentioned that it's already in the old camera I did another test. The old camera has some inertial drift after moving it, but it's fine because the drift is both slow and only at the end of the camera movement. The old camera starts moving at full speed instantly instead of accelerating at the beginning of the motion.
On the other hand, the new camera takes some time to get up to speed, causing it to feel very sluggish and laggy. That slow acceleration at the start of the movement is most of the problem, but the drift at the end also needs a little work. The new camera seems to slow almost linearly from full speed to a stop, causing it to feel very uncontrolled and bouncy. The old camera seems like it slows down very quickly and most of the drift is at a low speed so it feels like the camera is just settling into place rather than drifting past where we want it.

Inertia on zooming is still very bad because scrolling with a mouse wheel is a much more granular operation with steps. Smoothing those steps creates a very uncomfortable disconnect between input and effect where the input is quick and precise but the effect is slow and imprecise.

Also, the more I use the camera the more I notice how slow it is to move the camera vertically. The difference between vertical sensitivity and horizontal sensitivity is very strange and feels wrong.

Now, about the V thing people keep mentioning, I can't get that to work but slowly adding lines to the dscan results window is a terrible idea. It needs to be at least 4x faster if it absolutely must be done that way, but getting the whole list instantly is still far better.

And just so nobody reading this thread gets the impression there's anyone who doesn't hate the tracking changes, let me make it clear that I too dislike having to press C on each new item. I also don't like having my ship moved to the side where there are always windows covering it.


TL;DR: Inertia on the start of camera movements is bad and makes it feel sluggish and laggy. Inertia on zooming is also bad because it's a precise operation and it doesn't feel precise with inertia. Vertical camera sensitivity should be the same as horizontal. Adding dscan results one line at a time needs to either be much, much faster or not happen. Please fix the tracking camera; it's not nice to use the way it is now.

The new camera has come a long way, but a few of those basic issues remain, making it hard to use. The proposed dscan changes really don't make up for the tracking camera being hard to use, even just for dscanning. That's not even considering its uses in combat or for getting a sense of your position in space.
RuleoftheBone
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#372 - 2016-02-15 03:54:53 UTC  |  Edited by: RuleoftheBone
CCP Turtlepower wrote:



• I am not able to "look around" when holding right mouse button like I was used to.
This is intended, that feature was not included in the new camera. If you use the tactical view you can look anywhere on the grid!

• Tracking camera can no longer be toggled, what gives!?
We are looking into this and considering solutions.

• I can’t track ships once they enter the "in warp" state.
This is still being discussed. Ultimately it is a game design decision.


CCP Turtlepower // Team Psycho Sisters


Good morning,

I confess to being slightly annoyed at the level of hubris and "take it or leave it" expressed here. It makes me question how exactly this is being play tested.

Some realistic examples from my play this weekend:

-Jump in new WH and proceed to warp to planet "XXX". While d-scanning enroute I see a Tengu. WHILE IN WARPI pivot camera and narrow dscan to 5 degrees pinning said Tengu to an anom. This all within 10-15 seconds of hopping into systems. One CANNOTaccomplish this with the new camera. Period. And this is considered a valid game design decision?

-The camera drift is ridiculous for anyone seriously trying to d-scan. It makes pinpointing things in space an exercise in frustration.

-Back to the Tengu in above scenario. I warp in to the site cloaked and find myself suddenly having to dance tactical overlay and camera to maneuver towards the target while avoiding the frigging MTU tractor beam sucking wrecks, the Tengu motoring around, Sleepers randomly running about, and random crap in the site. Again....with the new camera this becomes quite pretty....but NOT functional for normal everyday use.

Is this some sort of nerf to WH space? Or to capsuleers that actually know how to dscan? Dumbing down the game for some reason?

-Another scenario....cloaked guy hops through a gate.....dump bubble....wait...wait....all while rapidly pivoting camera that stays nice and steady in conjunction with tactical display. Target appears....pivot cam while noting on tactical....manually fly at him and lights out. This is...again...next to impossible to perform with the new camera in its current state.

Look...I appreciate the work you and the rest of the CCP crew are doing to improve the game. But in this particular instance you are doing your supporters a disservice and again.....a little dude like me is simply asking you to reconsider shoveling his down our throats without reasonable accommodation to correct the serious issues.

As always I am more than happy to prove my points to you directly in space. After 10 years in EvE operating mainly as a sneaky **** pr0 scout perhaps you might take something onboard to consider.

And for the above listed examples please see JJ Starr's killboard. Thats my other account. I never exaggerate or BS my experiences in this fine game.

Cheers

B

**edit** I am also slightly annoyed at the level of response here and having to go see more at reddit which is not my favorite place to read about EvE. These are YOUR forums......perhaps use them a bit more? And for the rude pilots in this thread....more flies with honey and all that. Insulting the devs does nothing useful.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#373 - 2016-02-15 05:27:48 UTC
Alea wrote:
Jeven HouseBenyo wrote:
It dawned on me early Saturday evening while I was binge watching some T.V. series.

This is very similar to the outcry that came from the Overview Icon change. The one where there was a strong (on forums at least) request to at least keep the 'Classic/Legacy' Icons for those that preferred them for several reasons. How did that turn out? And as for the backhanded offer of a customizable set of icons in return for the outright removal of the old ones, umm, where are they? I can't seem to find the right clicky, tab, or drop menu to fiddle with them.

>Jeven


For me those tiny icons killed my solo pvp career, I still can't see those tiny bastards very well at all, specially if there are allot of pilots on grid, had new glasses made just to help me play Eve but still my eyesight is too bad, CCP pretty much let us players with bad eyesight down.

I still pvp with my alliance but that's the extent of it, I'm a CAP pilot my choice so I can take more time to "find" who I'm supposed to be lobbing projectiles at, if I was in anything smaller I would not be able to pvp at all I don't think.



why is it so hard to not sort by pilots name and ignore the icons? if you asre in fleet and the fc says 'dareaper is primary' then who cares what the icon for my ship is? you cna also sort by type and again, ignore the icon. No real reason not to as its what you would of done anyway if the icon was still a [ ]. There i fixed your icon issues, you are welcome

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#374 - 2016-02-15 05:37:56 UTC
Alea wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
As an aside:

to everyone pissing and moaning that ccp should play there game and then they would know what you all are talking about. Re: tracking camera, i have played eve for 12 years, scanned a lot of that and i have no ******* idea what you all are whining about with tracking. The new camera works just how i always used said camera. This is why they ask for videos and pictures, just because you and the guys you fly with use a tool a certain way, doesn't mean others do as well. This is why its best to show them what you are doing and how you are using things so they can understand what the **** you are talking about.

Stop being idiots and bitching at the devs and give them evidence of what is broken so they can try and fix it. Sheesh


If some of the devs would actually play the game that they write code for none of this sh1tstorm would be happening.



a lot of devs do play. That doesn't mean they play the same way you do. again for example, i am a 12 year vet, ex alliance leaders tho owned a few constellations, i was one of the first corps to colonize WH's. I currently scan every single day.

1) i have no issues with the camera, they fixed my initial problems in the first pass.

2) i never once used 'c' for anything on dscan.

3) i have no idea what the hell you all are bitching about, and just found out that 'v' in the test server does something cool that i did not know exist.

Devs program and maybe they don;t play the same way you do, in the same situation, with the same setup as you. This is why feedback needs to be constructive, because they too are human, and don;t do the same things as everyone else. And we find ways to play in way that a dev or programmer who doesn't play the same way might not know.

For example, one of Hilmars fav stories is can mining. when eve started he joined a corp to see how players were doing things. And discovered we were using can in an unintended way. He freaked out, until he realized we were using it in a good way. Dev and programs can;t always predict what a person is going to do. And looking at a design document with a set of numbers like '10% of players use this feature" they go 'well we can remove it then.' not realizing the impact on said design.

Hence images, video, descriptions is better. And they may change something because of factors you have no idea about, which won;t become apparent till later. OR they change things for the hell of it and need to be told why what they did is bad.

really not that hard.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#375 - 2016-02-15 06:01:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Exactly. Ranting and raving and threatening to quit over changes does help a little in that it helps to make the scope of the problems apparent. However, to actually fix the problems devs need to know specifically what's wrong and figure out how to fix it. That however leads to our current situation where everyone and their mom wants the tracking camera to be a mode toggle instead of a command but the devs don't change it. At this point it should be obvious what the problem is and how to fix it, but they're not fixing it. That's pretty much the only case where ranting and raving and threatening to quit the game can accomplish anything.

For the rest of the issues as well as this one we need to be constructive and actually narrow down the cause of the problem as closely as possible, and ideally offer solutions.
Jeven HouseBenyo
Vanity Thy Name Is
#376 - 2016-02-15 06:13:54 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Alea wrote:
Jeven HouseBenyo wrote:
It dawned on me early Saturday evening while I was binge watching some T.V. series.

This is very similar to the outcry that came from the Overview Icon change. The one where there was a strong (on forums at least) request to at least keep the 'Classic/Legacy' Icons for those that preferred them for several reasons. How did that turn out? And as for the backhanded offer of a customizable set of icons in return for the outright removal of the old ones, umm, where are they? I can't seem to find the right clicky, tab, or drop menu to fiddle with them.

>Jeven


For me those tiny icons killed my solo pvp career, I still can't see those tiny bastards very well at all, specially if there are allot of pilots on grid, had new glasses made just to help me play Eve but still my eyesight is too bad, CCP pretty much let us players with bad eyesight down.

I still pvp with my alliance but that's the extent of it, I'm a CAP pilot my choice so I can take more time to "find" who I'm supposed to be lobbing projectiles at, if I was in anything smaller I would not be able to pvp at all I don't think.



why is it so hard to not sort by pilots name and ignore the icons? if you asre in fleet and the fc says 'dareaper is primary' then who cares what the icon for my ship is? you cna also sort by type and again, ignore the icon. No real reason not to as its what you would of done anyway if the icon was still a [ ]. There i fixed your icon issues, you are welcome


Third try at writing a response that won't give the illusion of a personal rebuttal to a personal attack.

Failed.

To each their own view of the overview icons, camera changes, and how every FC runs a fleet op. I sincerely apologize for not being a professional multi-year Eve bad grrl PvP'er.

>Jeven

Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.

'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.

Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.

Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P

No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.

Danny Lonnegan
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#377 - 2016-02-15 06:51:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny Lonnegan
Gave the new camera a try in PVP on Friday. Tweaked the settings until I was reasonably comfortable with them, and had an okay time--until I clicked on the overview to look at something or D-scan something, and got frustrated because I'd forgotten to c-click again. Today I switched back to the old camera, and frankly it was a relief to have tracking behaving normally again.

Suggestions so far, then:

1) Default settings should be adjusted so the orbit camera behaves more like the old camera out of the box. EVE really doesn't need another thing to configure before you start playing. Video makers will probably want to tweak the settings to take fuller advantage of the new features, but video makers would probably have tweaked the camera anyway according to their own personal needs and tastes.

2) Really, honestly and truly, tracking should be toggled on once and left on. For fast d-scanning, for situational awareness in a fight, for just catching a glimpse of something cool, c-clicking is inadequate.

EDIT:

3) I'm not sure if the spooky music in tactical mode is a bug or intended feature, but that really should be bound to the music volume slider for people who want to turn it off. It's my understanding now that it's bound to the UI volume slider, which means, if you don't like the spooky music, choosing between gritting your teeth and bearing it, switching to another camera mode, or turning off the client's (very helpful!) array of audio signals.
Trajan Unknown
State War Academy
Caldari State
#378 - 2016-02-15 07:50:56 UTC
Can someone enlighten me about the "V" shortcut? I can´t find anything related in the shortcut options and my shortkeys are heavily modified.
Varathius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#379 - 2016-02-15 09:36:06 UTC
Do not remove the option to opt for the old camera angle version please.

Changes are welcome if they are based upon positive feedback of the end-users. For instance, in aviation, HUDs (Heads up displays) were made because of pilot feedback, so the aviation industry have implemented the system on military and civil aircraft based upon pilot feedback.

So, in Eve, CCP would be the aviation industry and the players would be the pilots when comparing this to the above example.

If engineers would have made HUDs not giving a damn about pilot feedback, then guess what, pilots will just flip the HUD up and not even use it to begin with, and rely on traditional display unit instrumentation layouts. However, as engineers forcing pilots to use HUDs without having had pilot feedback, oh boy... welcome increased inefficiency, risks, etc... again, sometimes it is good to make a real life scenario for comparison.

Failure to listen to end-user feedback and blindly removing the option to enable the older version of camera angles is a SERIOUS MISTAKE.


UberMarmalade
Prime Militia
#380 - 2016-02-15 09:42:25 UTC
I'd just like to weigh in on the whole tracking camera debate with what I've posted on reddit.

The most common use case for dscan is when jumping into a system (or already being there) and trying to locate which celestial another player is at. Without the tracking camera you no longer have the assistance of clicking on overview items to quickly be able to scan them.

The tracking camera + clicking on overview gave a quick way of locating a person by setting your dscan to a small cone, then for every celestial you want to check it's:
click overview
  • dscan
  • The current version on tranquillity has replaced those two steps with:

    • click overview
    • press c
    • wait for camera
    • press dscan

    or using the map:

    • Locate the celestial you would like to scan on a 3d map (slower than looking at your overview)
    • Open radial menu
    • Press dscan[/left]


    If you don't use the map version of dscan, you've got a strictly slower version of the same process (more steps + a wait)

    If you use the map option, it's nice for some cases, but the negatives are:


    • having to have a map open (I don't like this, I'm usually dscanning in a pvp situation so it either means using a small map window or covering up important things like modules and overview)
    • Missing out on using the overview, I pick celestials based off of a list of nearby celestials in one of my overview tabs setup for the dscan task at hand, with the map option I have to find them in space
    • Finding things in 3d space and clicking them is (for some common use cases) strictly worse than picking from a a list


    The new options just feels super clunky compared to the previous way of doing this (to catch someone you have to be fast on dscan, so a slowdown here is a massive frustration)
    A quick fix might be to put that dscan menu option in some more places (but then you risk more menu bloat)