EVE General Discussion

This started as a response to one of the Devs in the new Citadel thread regarding CREST integration in the Citadel Markets not being supported (initially at least).

The more I thought about it, the more I realized that unless the market ability of NPC stations is completely removed (or the taxes raised to an ungodly percentage, the whole idea will not work. Even then, CREST integration would still become a requirement. Below are my reasons, and are from the perspective of the trade hubs in high sec. Low and Null would have a similar logic, but do not have a "Jita".


People who would NEED CREST integration in order to make CCP's grand plan of player owned Citadel Markets a reality:

- Sellers - How many large scale traders use some sort of tool that relies on prices and market order API info to keep track of hundreds to thousands of orders? I would guess all of them. Even random players in null will use Eve-Central to quickly price check items in high sec, etc. If you move the market from an NPC station to a Citadel and that sort of information is not available, sellers will not be happy.

- Asset safety - Sellers will not want to put their stuff in a citadel that can get blown up. Why? Because they will not want to
pay to have it safely returned. It would be worth the loss of a few percentage points of profit to sell in an NPC station that
can never be removed.

- Buyers - How many people use eve-central or eve-praisal to see how much their stuff is worth? I would guess more than 75% of the player base. Same issue as above, if the information is not available your plan will not work.

- Industrialist - They need the API information on markets to judge what they are making. Repeat reasons from above.


The two main reasons the idea will not work even if CREST is available: Central Hub Theory and Asset Safety

- Central Hub Theory (Jita) - In one way or another, every market in Eve is based on Jita prices. The last time CCP tried to destroy a central market (I believe it was Yulie) by changing the stargate map, they created Jita. There is a reason that in real life, the main markets are only in a few cities (New York, Chicago, and a few others around the world). While I am not saying Eve is dying, I will tell you there are not enough people interested in the markets to support Eve without some sort of central market hub. If you don't believe me, try to get someone who is not already doing it now to run to Jita and get enough "stuff" for a whole corporation or alliance.

- Asset safety - Sellers will not want to put their stuff in a citadel that can get blown up. Why? Because they will not want to
pay to have it safely returned. It would be worth the loss of a few percentage points of profit to sell in an NPC station that
can never be removed.

These two ideas are not compatible in Eve. If you were to take all of Jita and put it in a high sec XL Citadel, that citadel would be destroyed within a week because a big group would war dec the owners and kill it. If you doubt this would happen, you do not know Eve. At the same time, if you were to have everyone spread out to Citadels around high sec, now you are asking players to spend hours flying to dozens of different systems or Citadels to get what they need. That sounds like fun. How many people hate going to Jita now for a supply run? Now you expect them to go to more than one location to get what they need?

What will happen is players will still use the NPC market and the prices of items will go up by the % the NPC taxes go up (this assumes CCP would not be dumb enough to raise the taxes to something like 20-30%)

TL-DR
- Crest integration will be required for Citadel markets to even think about working.
- However, upon further review, the whole idea of removing the central hubs and moving them to Citadels will not work unless CCP goes completely overboard and starts taxing players at an ungodly %.

Yes those areas are the most logical, and if we are being honest, probably what CCP was hoping for more than the hubs being moved.

What they seem to be missing is that if they raise the tax rate at the NPC stations to try to "force" this shift, all it will do is raise the overall price of goods. Companies do not pay taxes IRL. They pass the cost along to the customer as best as they can. This being Eve, the end player will pay the tax, not the marketer.

As a trader/hauler, I'm interested in seeing how this changes the markets. I think if its done right, they could function as a bridge between Wormhole/Null space and High Sec and create a two way market between the areas that functions better than the trade does now.

If I ever saved up enough cash, I'd be interested in doing my own mini hub, but I would need to find a market to direct it towards(Wspace, NullSec, Ice, etc) before I would invest an ISK in it. And I would need something to bring the hauler/traders into my citadel in the first place.

I'm not sure I'd subscribe to the idea that Player Citadels are replacements for HiSec NPC stations. I've heard rumors that all NPC stations would go away but nothing positively substantiated so far. I would guess that NPC stations will continue to live in HiSec (can you build a Citadel in HiSec?) and Player Citadels would be in Lo/Null Sec.

Players 'blowing up' a Citadel would not make sense other than to make a statement. You'd want to take the station and then YOU own it. That's somewhat like what happens now isn't it? I thought that was what the whole sov/reinforced thing was. These things are expensive and by taking something like that away from someone, you make immediate profit. If you can't hold it, then you could just Self Destruct it, or the owners could do the same if they realize they can't hold it.

As far as transferring goods in a takeover attempt, that could just be a simple game mechanism. A bunch of freighter pods eject, a crapload of CONCORD freighters with a massive fleet escort shows up and takes them. In two days all the goods are back in the nearest item hangar the player owns to the station that got destroyed. Just a mechanic with some visual support.

So, I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about the details. Like the cameras, SP trading, and now Citadels, it is likely a work in progress.

Tossing out some supporting ideas to 'fix' perceived issues once it's active and working is probably a good thing though.

Each statement addresses a different paragraph:

- yes you can build Citadels in high sec. Dev blog came out yesterday.

- "Players blowing up a Citadel would not make sense" - How long have you played Eve? These things will be killed in high sec for the laughs. If there was a Citadel that had the Jita market in it, you bet your isk that one of the larger null groups would destroy it within a week. My evidence to support this is "Burn Jita". As for not making sense, that describes 90% of high sec war decs. If tears can be harvested from this, it will be done.

- The way the assets will be handled has already been announced. Your stuff will be moved to the nearest NPC station where you will have to pay to get it back. Please read prior dev blogs.

- These things need to be addressed now so the Developers can take notice.

You missed the biggest part of this is that you would have to pay to get your assets back.

It will not be cheap either.

In the long run you won't have a choice, since Outposts are going away and NPC stations may be following them entirely in a few years as well.

It is an interesting discussion but I suspect we the players are missing somethings. Let us review what we know:

- CCP Seagull has shown us glimpses of player made star gates.
- An entirely new suite of player made structures that can be deployed in space that provide the same or more or new functionality compare to what currently exists.
- All these structures can now be destroyed by players.
- In order to make the above true, legacy code must be replaced - removal of POSes.

OP, I do not believe player markets are remotely intended to replace current market hubs nor will NPC stations and related mechanics be removed. These are current, well structured game play within the existing sandbox. These functions might be tweaked to support the new direction but not removed. - Consider the existing New Eden as the kiddies end of the sandbox.

I am of the belief that when we can build the new star gates CCP will be unleashing the DEEP END of the sandbox: Entirely new star systems with NO NPC/player made anything in it. Slowly PLAYERS make the system networks as evident in New Eden. Completely virgin territory to be explored, colonized and controlled; a 4x game within the EVE world where player decisions far out strip any consequences we currently understand.

WHs clearly demonstrated that players are innovative. This new space without the benefit of a pre-built gate system will not have Concord, system security ratings, (possibly) delayed local or a local dependent upon what structures are deployed. Moon mining will be finite, exploration will discovere more obscure NPC loot related items. Rats will be old factions exploring for themselves but not predictable within a newly explored system. Maybe the "Other" is out there.

The deep end of the New Eden sandbox is not in New Eden. It is beyond the star gates we the players build and in the structures we build out there. The safety net will be removed for those that want to build something truly unique.

Getting back to a market hub may be difficult, undesirable or simply impractical. Player made markets in the New Territories may be the only reasonable place to trade.

NPC stations aren't going nowhere don't worry about that.

Fact is that less than 2% of the players dwell in wormholes. so it begs to wonder who exaclty asked even more wormholes-that-are-not-womholes.

CCP has invented customer oriented desing in which what customers do is irrelevant compared to what CCP Seagull and a few bright sparks think that customers should be doing in EVE.