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Flavor Vs Function, Everyflavor vs Berrylicous; Battle of the Name changes!

Author
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#1 - 2012-01-11 01:39:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Well for those of you paying attention will realize that very soon we may all be waking up to a very different eve.

Simply put the patch in question is going to turn this:
Nova Fox wrote:

Anaconda, Asp, Bane, Bloodclaw, Cataclysm, Catastrophe, Cobra, Concussion, Devastator, Doom, Dragon, Electron, Eradicator, Exterminator, Firefly, Flameburst, Foxfire, Fulmination,Ghost, Gremlin,Havoc, Hellfire, Hellhound, Hunter, Hydra, Inferno, Juggernaut, Mjolnir, Obliterator, Paradise, Piranha, Phalanx, Phoenix, Purgatory, Python, Rajas,Rift, Sabertooth, Scorch, Scourge, Seeker, Serpent, Shrapnel, Sol, Stalker, Terror, Thor, Thorn,Thunar, Thunderbolt, Torrent, Widowmaker, Wrath

Into this
Singularity wrote:

Incidenary
Mjonlir
Nova
Truama

^tl:dr, the below just justifies the for and against shown here and what it brings or takes away from eve

And in the future then some more elsewhere. Most welcomingly hardwire implants, most abhorrently modules.

Now currently there is feedback in the TSF fourum about it mostly decrying how flavor gets robbed/blander and the current comprimise that some of us are bringing forward is to make all the FOFs, Dumbfire, and Smart Fire missiels seperate names generated 12 instead of four names which is very likely to be heard and taken heed.

Another suggestion was to add damage name into the current names which I partially disagree with considering that Really Really Long Item Name does not favorably do too well in alot of UI configurations. Which at that point you'd almost have to name a missile Caldari Navy F.O.F. EM Rocket Gremiln in hopes you dont cut off the EM and Rocket part and not caring if Gremlin gets cut off becuase its not as important. This is almost dipping into the annoyance factor.

Now then the entire pupose of the above idea is to create 'conveyance' which in game development terms is basically allowing more for the player to self explore much more easily. A game that lacks conveyance winds up wtih players who go "Who am I, What do I do? Where do I go? How do I shoot web? " problem that some of the most horrible games in history and admittingly to some degree eve has.

So instead of having a Jelly Belly Every flavor pack (which is quite nasty if you try to eat it all at once) you get Jelly Beams ordered in small themed flavor packs. (Berrylicous)

So in the end we are facing a Everyflavor vs Berrylicous

Everyflavor has quite a large variety to the point you start to forget what tasted good and what doesnt. I had been recently reminded why I dont like Buttered Popcorn Jelly Beans even worse I have to find the massive online chart for some of the beans of 'questionable' quality Like is it chocolate or cofee or toffee or caramel or licorish?

This is what eve is suffering from now, we are flooded with over 12,000 items and there are alot of us inable to remeber them all. I have to constantly look up meta-level of all sorts of modules as I fit ships of all prices ranges quite regularly at the shipyard.

Berrylicous has few flavors to which I know remember and are quite fond of as I can easily remember whats in the berrylicous mix and what each bean is, even start guesing what flavors are in it without having to even look on the package anymore.

What berrylicous mentality will bring is that we wont be losing out on 12,000 items they just come in more bite size and flavored packages you can almost predict the contents of. What if they suddenly introduced tropical wave flavor pack? Well I would be able to guess majority of the contents or even have an 'expectation' of what should be in the tropical wave and may be off by one flavor or two but never disapointed in the actual answers.

Can you imagine being able to look at a module and instantly guess, oh thats a meta level 2 item. Or how about a meta 4s you know that flavor too!

Now as the argument goes back and forth in Test Server Feedback we do see another good reason why this can be a bad thing.

Auto-link Mjolinir and I get:
Singularity wrote:

Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missile
Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile
Caldari Navy Mjolnir Rocket
Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Dread Guristas Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Dread Guristas Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Dread Guristas Mjolnir Heavy Missile
Dread Guristas Mjolnir Light Missile
Dread Guristas Mjolnir Rocket
Dread Guristas Mjolnir Torpedo
Guristas Mjolnir Citadel Torpedo
Guristas Mjolnir Citadel Cruise Missile
Guristas Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Guristas Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Guristas Mjolnir Heavy Missile
Guristas Mjolnir Light Missile
Guristas Mjolnir Rocket
Guristas Mjolnir Torpedo
Mjolnir Citadel Torpedo
Mjolnir Citadel Cruise Missile
Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Mjolnir Heavy Missile
Mjolnir Javelin Heavy Assault Missile
Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo
Mjolnir Javelin Rocket
Mjolnir Rage Rocket
Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Mjolnir Light Missile
Mjolnir Fury Light Missile
Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile
Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Mjolnir Precision Light Missile
Mjolnir Precision Heavy Missile
Mjolnir Precision Cruise Missile
Mjolnir Rocket
Mjolnir Torpedo


Mind you I can get a bigger result list if I where to type in Antimatter into the search bar.

This could be troublesome if too much homengenousity goes on. It be like typing in berrylicous and I get smoothie sour creamy and every sort of berrylicious combination possible. This makes the new idea potentially as bad as pre-game. Sure we can type in rocket and get a far smaller list or having to use two words instead quatering the entire list Mjolnir Rocket would only result in 4 returns.

Anyways there's the two sides, the reason, and the analogy to work with.

Your thoughts?
Berrylicious Beans forever or Everyflavor Beans?

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#2 - 2012-01-11 01:41:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Xercodo
EMP S
EMP M
EMP L
EMP XL

....I see no problem here

Btw some of those that you listed were bombs and the outdated mines. I was gonna say "lol Scorch?" but that's a bomb too... lol

As far as I can tell it's just missiles that's getting the change...

The Drake is a Lie

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#3 - 2012-01-11 01:43:50 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
EMP S
EMP M
EMP L
EMP XL

....I see no problem here


Basically thats what they just did.

I mean I could type in

Antimatter and get MORE results than the Mjonlir would bring back becuase there are other Anti-matter things that arent bullets in eve.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#4 - 2012-01-11 01:49:11 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Xercodo wrote:
EMP S
EMP M
EMP L
EMP XL

....I see no problem here


Basically thats what they just did.

I mean I could type in

Antimatter and get MORE results than the Mjonlir would bring back becuase there are other Anti-matter things that arent bullets in eve.


"Antimatter Charge" would at least get all of the ammos

EMP on the other hand can generate other items that have the word EMP in them

Tip for laser people: use "ency X" (S/M/L/XL) to search for MF crystals quickly, "multi" doesn't help cause you get all of the multi spec ECMs too lol

The Drake is a Lie

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#5 - 2012-01-11 01:51:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Meh people are silly sometimes. Either way the test server junkies and role players are thorwing thier arms up over this.

I for one would be going like

dary Rocket to get all my flaming rockets

or hell

Rockets and get all the rocket types.


However in the future modules may be getting changed too a similar idea for thier meta-levels

IE

Limited Meta 1
Advanced Meta 2
Prototype Meta 3
Experimetnal Meta 4

I would like to argue against this to some extent

Like limit them by certain groups all the weapons go with one theme all the electronics annother all resistance module thier own anaming scheme. (which I think they already are)

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Renarla
#6 - 2012-01-11 02:15:57 UTC
I was not aware of this change - PLEASE let it make it to the live servers, this would remove a huge unnecessary learning curve from the game and would make life insanely easier even for us veterans. I fully support this.
Bayushi Tamago
Sect of the Crimson Eisa
#7 - 2012-01-11 02:59:01 UTC
While the diff names are nice for flavor, I also approve of the name reduction to make it easier to search for multiple things in the market at the same time
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
#8 - 2012-01-11 04:55:54 UTC
I vote for Berrylicious.
12000 items - that's a daunting figure for any game, let alone one as difficult as Eve to get new people to play.
Berrylicious will work here.
*heads over to test forums*
Vyl Vit
#9 - 2012-01-11 05:18:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyl Vit
People involved with technology always name things in a way that makes no sense but to them...
dynamo/generator...cookie...page file... Why start making sense now?
We're used to translating
from the Geek.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.

Wot I Think
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-01-11 05:41:06 UTC
I support the name nerf, It makes the game better imho.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#11 - 2012-01-11 06:21:31 UTC
Bayushi Tamago wrote:
While the diff names are nice for flavor, I also approve of the name reduction to make it easier to search for multiple things in the market at the same time


We could have both. Like, renaming projectile EMP ammo to:

EMP 'Thor' XL
EMP 'Lightning' L
EMP 'Shocker' M
EMP 'Static' S

Now you can either search by damage type "EMP" or type in a 'flavor' name which gets you exactly what you want, every single time once you learn the names of things that you care about.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-01-11 07:52:55 UTC
Quote:
Incidenary
Mjonlir
Nova
Truama


Personally, I'd prefer:

Thermal
Explosive
EM
Kinetic.

I.e. Caldari Navy Kinetic Heavy Assault Missile.

Because why the hell complicate things?
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-01-11 08:04:35 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Quote:
Incidenary
Mjonlir
Nova
Truama


Personally, I'd prefer:

Thermal
Explosive
EM
Kinetic.

I.e. Caldari Navy Kinetic Heavy Assault Missile.

Because why the hell complicate things?

Pretty much.
lior narkis
Massive Dynamic weapons
#14 - 2012-01-11 08:04:59 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Quote:
Incidenary
Mjonlir
Nova
Truama


Personally, I'd prefer:

Thermal
Explosive
EM
Kinetic.

I.e. Caldari Navy Kinetic Heavy Assault Missile.

Because why the hell complicate things?


True.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Guldan Age Stories
Federation Front Line
#15 - 2012-01-11 08:23:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
I really don't care, if it makes it ez than im for it.

As for the fluff...really? This this has people up in arms? The time line in the game has progressed how much? Your translator interface is just making it ez to under stand we have no idea what there names are in the toungs of thouse that made them because they just make meat noses and or fancy bran addins tell us whats up, deal.

you wanna talk about fluff?

Why no Bloodraiders incursions? its already THEIR fluff to show up capture every one and kill them all to evil gods.

Why do just sleepers (the Caldari) precursor race get an expansion?

Why no modus legion, rouge drone, Equilibrium of Mankind, etc etc ships? (they all seem like fine candidates for the gel/amr or
min/cal un-used pair up for pirate hulls)

Why no new star systems sense WH/FW? the fluff talks about them being made all the time, how you have to slow boat there and set up shop but that thousands of these "start up gates" are in route as we speak

Why no help from CONCORD one pirates attack you in hisec at a belt?

Why do pirats not run from fights? There not immortal. Are they all under that much presser to not run? do there parent corps like the ship losses?

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-01-11 08:34:55 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Quote:
Incidenary
Mjonlir
Nova
Truama


Personally, I'd prefer:

Thermal
Explosive
EM
Kinetic.

I.e. Caldari Navy Kinetic Heavy Assault Missile.

Because why the hell complicate things?


If you mean use the damage type in the name while retaining flavor names too, sure why not. If you mean just get rid of all flavor names and reduce it to damage type and missile type, then no. Reason being that makes it seem like you're just a lazy ass dev who didn't bother to polish your game at all. It's like instead of having names like "Niarja Myelen" you've got "Enemy 1" or "Sansha frigate 1" as ship names. It's simplifying things to the point it starts to seriously interfere with the enjoyment some people get from the game. Having to remember a single name per weapon damage type is already extremely easy, so getting rid of flavor names will propably be more harmful than helpful.
Avensys
The Waterworks
#17 - 2012-01-11 08:35:52 UTC
I like the change.

I hate having to click Show Info on 3 missiles just to find the one I want.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#18 - 2012-01-11 08:53:04 UTC
Avensys wrote:
I like the change.

I hate having to click Show Info on 3 missiles just to find the one I want.


True not all of us can see the green on those kenetic missiles to well and I do know there are color blind people in the world. I hate doing this to modules ever darn day. And if flavor was the deal then we need to go out and rename every faction mission uniquely and rename all the tech 2s uniquely and rename all the other ammo in a similar fashion I can almost gauranteed it will be a most hated change.

And segregation into damage types wont be useful as long as thiere are resistance modules of the same name. Type in kinetic and you're abound to get back a list longer than you care to browse though.

Since Destination Skillqueue is bringing up npcs there are about 150,000 (they probably added 5k more with incursions alone) different NPCs in the game most of them are almost renames of another frigate found elsewhere. I think a 'reduction' is in order to the point of giving the names a reason. Like making a name alwasy associate with its attack profile. Like make all the angle generals use artillery and try to keep out of range. Instead of having the Arch Gistums, Generals, War Generals, Seraphims, Lt.s Generals all hugging your face providing me with a degree of " What's the difference?" in raping my face?

I mean if they started making npcs by role instead (like they do in some incursions the hostiles still feel rather generic mostly segregated into dont shoot that one yet, and kill everything else.) of bounty eve would probably be 1000% more interesting in the PVE world.

Keep the individual NPCs simple unless its intended to be a 'boss.' Like one role each kind then a generic attack profile.

IE our Incursion sencario. One of the frigates if providing Remote Weapon Upgrades to the other nearby ships. Another frigate is a squadron leader in anti-frigate and drone duties. Another frigate is target painting everyone and providing a sensor boosting and I want this to a point that when an Incursion FC steps in hell have to make the decision of which dies first becuase of the certain threat angle that ship's existence applies against his fleet.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Bayushi Tamago
Sect of the Crimson Eisa
#19 - 2012-01-11 11:02:18 UTC
Kinetic Missiles are supposed to be green? I assumed they were grey to match the resistance profiles on the ship fitting screen. I do agree that rewriting some of the mission NPC AI would be nice to give some different stuff in missions like Pleasure Hub, but nothing insane like retargetting.
Winters Chill
Unitas Incorporated
#20 - 2012-01-11 12:49:02 UTC
I for one, do not believe new players are put off eve because the games rich naming convention Attention

Can't help but feel that this seems like an example of top down nebulous direction.

I sort of imagine this happening:

All the teams have a meeting, director of creativity or whatever says "okay guys we need to make more of an effort in making the game more accessible to all the FPS players that might try the game because of Dust".

So all the teams have to think of a way, any way, no matter how stupid, to make the game more accessible, because they have literally been told to do that. So content or whoever changes the name of ammo.

Of course I'm saying this because I like the weird, library of items in eve, the details are what makes Eve awesome. So therefore I don't like streamlining naming conventions. Your going to make eve a much blander experience. And that makes me a sad Winters Cry



Fake edit: This blandifying of games has reached epidemic proportions in the games industry. It's like making chess into draughts because you aren't selling enough chess boards "its too complicated for the bottom line". You change it yet still call it chess, but easier; "new chess", and new chess will attract more players, because it's old chess fun but more accessible, so everyone can enjoy it, right? Well I think it is a false economy, the people who like playing old chess, stop playing new chess and go find another version of old chess.

Just saying this is a dangerous path for CCP to take. /skyisfalling
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