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Balancing bumping and looting mechanics

First post
Author
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#761 - 2016-02-04 09:12:11 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
can't counter bump, can't fly anything expensive, etc.

More like won't than can't. Besides, you don't need anything expensive to counter bump. A t1 cruiser with a mwd can do it.

Sure. Reliability of counter bumping is ****** even with a properly fit mach, let alone a t1 cruiser with half of mach's agility.

Teckos Pech wrote:
What a load of Bravo Sierra...funny how gankers manage this just fine.
With insta undocks, and reasonable precautions ganking a bumping ship is indeed quite feasible, but go ahead and grasp at straws. Roll

What the heck are you talking about? Insta undocks, precautions? I'm not talking about ganking the bumper, I'm talking about doing anything in hisec with a kill right on your head if the person holding that kill right has any idea about what can be done with it (judging from your posts, you obviously don't). Gankers (or their ganking chars) don't care about killrights, hell they don't care about sec status to start with since current crimewatch mechanics allow them to be completely functional regardless of concord and facpo.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#762 - 2016-02-04 09:48:48 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
What the heck are you talking about? Insta undocks, precautions? I'm not talking about ganking the bumper, I'm talking about doing anything in hisec with a kill right on your head if the person holding that kill right has any idea about what can be done with it (judging from your posts, you obviously don't). Gankers (or their ganking chars) don't care about killrights, hell they don't care about sec status to start with since current crimewatch mechanics allow them to be completely functional regardless of concord and facpo.

So the killrights and your sec status are of really great concern to you but they are completely without consequence for other players like the gankers?
Iain Cariaba
#763 - 2016-02-04 09:50:47 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
can't counter bump, can't fly anything expensive, etc.

More like won't than can't. Besides, you don't need anything expensive to counter bump. A t1 cruiser with a mwd can do it.

Sure. Reliability of counter bumping is ****** even with a properly fit mach, let alone a t1 cruiser with half of mach's agility.

Not really. You do know there's more to proper bumping than just clicking approach, right? If you know what you're doing it's not really that difficult.

Oh, wait, I forgot, :effort:.

Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
What a load of Bravo Sierra...funny how gankers manage this just fine.
With insta undocks, and reasonable precautions ganking a bumping ship is indeed quite feasible, but go ahead and grasp at straws. Roll

What the heck are you talking about? Insta undocks, precautions? I'm not talking about ganking the bumper, I'm talking about doing anything in hisec with a kill right on your head if the person holding that kill right has any idea about what can be done with it (judging from your posts, you obviously don't). Gankers (or their ganking chars) don't care about killrights, hell they don't care about sec status to start with since current crimewatch mechanics allow them to be completely functional regardless of concord and facpo.

Oh no!!! You might get a killright that you can have a friend buy off cheaply!!!!!! Roll

Look, you can either learn how to bump effectively and bump the mach risk free, or you can accept the consequences of ganking the mach. You have the same choices the gankers do, you just refuse to realize this.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#764 - 2016-02-04 10:08:08 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:

Sure. Reliability of counter bumping is ****** even with a properly fit mach, let alone a t1 cruiser with half of mach's agility.
.


MWDing mach = 13 seconds align time, 8.03 seconds align time with nothing but nanofibers in the lows.

MWDing stabber = 7.67 seconds align time, 4.58 seconds align time with nothing but naofibers in the lows.

Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#765 - 2016-02-04 11:48:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

MWDing mach = 13 seconds align time, 8.03 seconds align time with nothing but nanofibers in the lows.

MWDing stabber = 7.67 seconds align time, 4.58 seconds align time with nothing but naofibers in the lows.


Well, dunno about your numbers but my mach fit (4xISTABII, 2xOverdrivesII, DCII + T1/2 500mn MWD, no rigs) has 7 sec align time and 10.6 sec MWD align before skills (EFT 2.33). Add some rigs and implants, it can go lower.
50mn mwd stabber ain't gonna do much in terms of counter bumping, 500mwd t1 cruisers are crap in terms of agility.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#766 - 2016-02-04 11:51:56 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:

Oh no!!! You might get a killright that you can have a friend buy off cheaply!!!!!! Roll

If the owner of the killright is stupid or lazy enough to make it publicly available for pennies, sure.

Quote:
Look, you can either learn how to bump effectively and bump the mach risk free, or you can accept the consequences of ganking the mach. You have the same choices the gankers do, you just refuse to realize this.

Do tell me more about counter bumping's effectiveness.
Ganking as the best choice for getting out of bumping situation is broken, stupid, call it what you will.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#767 - 2016-02-04 12:44:15 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

MWDing mach = 13 seconds align time, 8.03 seconds align time with nothing but nanofibers in the lows.

MWDing stabber = 7.67 seconds align time, 4.58 seconds align time with nothing but naofibers in the lows.


Well, dunno about your numbers but my mach fit (4xISTABII, 2xOverdrivesII, DCII + T1/2 500mn MWD, no rigs) has 7 sec align time and 10.6 sec MWD align before skills (EFT 2.33). Add some rigs and implants, it can go lower.
50mn mwd stabber ain't gonna do much in terms of counter bumping, 500mwd t1 cruisers are crap in terms of agility.


Cruisers bump battleships just fine. There is no possible way for a mach to have twice the agility of a cruiser.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#768 - 2016-02-04 13:57:21 UTC
Brad Neece wrote:

HPs increased because it make Logical sense or just people being pissed wreck warp-in were being popped? Logically thinking why are wrecks something that you can warp to in the 1st place.


And back to logical......Why are those pilots"transferring" loot to a DST hangar becoming Suspect at all if they are never really in possession of those items. Shouldn't the 1st ship that has the items physically in cargo hold go Suspect in that case.
Its not nerf to ganking to fix this simple thing, is it? After all the ganking is already over by the time the looting starts. Plus gankers like CODE. claim the loot doesnt matter to them anyway :)



The suspect timer is based on trying to move goods. For a practical example, fill a megathron's cargo w/ stuff. Undock and try to move loot from a can/wreck of your choice into cargo. It will fail due to no room in the destination container. You'll still be suspect.

So the person moving the stuff takes the heat. It's an old mechanic that predates fleet hangers. It should probably be updated to account for the addition of fleet hangers to all sorts of ships.

As others have pointed out, this movement to fleet hangers is innovative. Someone applied brains to game mechanics and found the 'best way' to complete the task. It's admirable. And let's be honest about this specific process - anyone can have a 300 SP alt dish that loot into any fleet hanger. It's not like only a select few folks are allowed to do it. You wanna go all white knight - here's your tactic. Ibis that loot into a DST before the ebil gankers do and then contract it to the original owner for free. THEN taunt the gankers in local by showing the contract and rubbing your success in their noses. It will hurt them. They can say and pretend that it doesn't, but you will be getting them where they live. Perhaps you could even thank them in local for providing you with the opportunity to help others. See where I'm going with this?

Work on updating the mechanic if you don't think it's where it should be, but don't play the unfair (or worse immoral) card on this. It's fair, because anyone can recover the assets and do with them what they please. Sure, you can't legally shoot the hauler once it has the goods, but you have an equal opportunity to transfer them at the onset.

Trust me on this - the loot matters, and it matters even more if you claim it and give it back to the owners. You just have to take some actions to make it matter the way you want it to.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#769 - 2016-02-04 15:29:21 UTC
Is this now the Twilight Zone thread? Lol

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

bigbud skunkafella
Utama Incorporated
Astral Alliance
#770 - 2016-02-04 15:33:51 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
What the heck are you talking about? Insta undocks, precautions? I'm not talking about ganking the bumper, I'm talking about doing anything in hisec with a kill right on your head if the person holding that kill right has any idea about what can be done with it (judging from your posts, you obviously don't). Gankers (or their ganking chars) don't care about killrights, hell they don't care about sec status to start with since current crimewatch mechanics allow them to be completely functional regardless of concord and facpo.

So the killrights and your sec status are of really great concern to you but they are completely without consequence for other players like the gankers?


of course killrights are inconsequential for a -10 ganking alt , as evidenced by the frequent bragging in local, minerbumping etc by such as yourselves , who only have to undock, insta warp to safe then warp to target , lock , hit f1.

just to clarify for those who don't 'get it' about krs - a 'white knight ' who uses his main to gank a mach has to take into account that any ship he flies for the next month is at the mercy of the very people he is trying to fight . so the kr is set at say 100 mil , that stops the 'white knight' from getting a friend to clear it, but the moment he shows up in a decent ship, the bumper/gankers will activate the kr at no cost .

re looting- looting directly into a fleet hangar of a dst or other ship should cause a suspect timer on the receiving ship. if you want to loot with a dst or similar then you should have to transfer into a can then scoop it as per all ninja looting, which is counterable with mtus and others being able to loot the receiving can . dsts have + 2 warp stab strength , with all wc stabs fitted you get up to + 6 or 7 warp strength, how much more safety do u want ffs?

another idea to bring some balance to unlimited bumping with no consequences, how about when a freighter is hit repeatedly by a ship or ships , above a certain speed and preventing it entering warp over a period of 2- 3 mins say , a timer is set warning the bumper(s) he/they have 20 mins before he goes suspect for illegally obstructing a pilot from going about his business? alternatively, after a set amopunt of hi speed hits over a period of time, the freighter pilot gets a right to clear his way of the criminals impeding his progress in the form of a limited engagement type timer , where, upon activation , anyone in his fleet can legally engage the bumper , the downside being that upon activation, he can also be engaged by the bumper(s) .just think of the fun to be had... Big smile




Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#771 - 2016-02-04 15:33:57 UTC
I am fully cognisant of the nature of this thread - however, insofar as CCP's rules outline, bumping is not a criminal activity and cannot be punished.

Stealing from others and shooting MTUs? I guess that these are petty crimes, which is why CCP allows for suspect status, so that the aggrieved capsuleer can take matters into their own hands and deal with the interloper.

Unprovoked destruction? Well, that's more serious and that's why we have a police force to enforce the consequences of the attacker's actions.

Bumping? Not a crime at all (not a punishable action, nor an exploit), so no intervention by game mechanics required.

Imagine you got your way, though, and CCP succumbed to the sheer weight of carebearism and made bumping a crime - where would you draw the line? What if I playfully bumped your mission battleship in my interceptor on the station undock? Would that action warrant CONCORD coming in full force and blasting me to smithereens?

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Mag's
Azn Empire
#772 - 2016-02-04 15:37:08 UTC
Bumblefck wrote:
What if I playfully bumped your mission battleship in my interceptor on the station undock? Would that action warrant CONCORD coming in full force and blasting me to smithereens?
You would be a douchbag with mental issues. Didn't you know?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Bella Jennie
Doomheim
#773 - 2016-02-04 15:42:45 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
What if I playfully bumped your mission battleship in my interceptor on the station undock? Would that action warrant CONCORD coming in full force and blasting me to smithereens?
You would be a douchbag with mental issues. Didn't you know?


Honestly, that's a strawman argument..

When CCP ultimately fixes the unbalanced BUMPING in HIGHSEC rules/mechanic, they will surely address ALL potential circumstances..
(if they miss one, THAT may become an EXPLOIT opportunity.. that's how things work)

I believe you posted this just so you could write: "You would be a douchbag with mental issues. Didn't you know?"

How clever.. Roll

this game currently favors the DOUCHEBAGS

Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#774 - 2016-02-04 15:43:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhamnousia Nosferatu
baltec1 wrote:

Cruisers bump battleships just fine. There is no possible way for a mach to have twice the agility of a cruiser.

GL bumping the mach fit I listed above with any kind of reliability.
As for agility, yes there is - fit an oversize mwd to cruiser (fit for bumping the freighter).
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#775 - 2016-02-04 15:44:16 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
What if I playfully bumped your mission battleship in my interceptor on the station undock? Would that action warrant CONCORD coming in full force and blasting me to smithereens?
You would be a douchbag with mental issues. Didn't you know?



But of course, how silly of me

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#776 - 2016-02-04 15:47:19 UTC
Bella, perhaps you should have read up on the game before investing in it.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Mag's
Azn Empire
#777 - 2016-02-04 15:48:09 UTC
Bella Jennie wrote:


Honestly, that's a strawman argument..

When CCP ultimately fixes the unbalanced BUMPING in HIGHSEC rules/mechanic, they will surely address ALL potential circumstances..
(if they miss one, THAT may become an EXPLOIT opportunity.. that's how things work)

I believe you posted this just so you could write: "You would be a douchbag with mental issues. Didn't you know?"

How clever.. Roll
Strawman? Hardly. I'm using your logic. Prey tell how does the server know what the intentions are, behind an action?

Maybe it's time to drop the emotional baggage? As funny as your trolling is, we've seen it all before. It's not original. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#778 - 2016-02-04 15:48:15 UTC
Bumblefck wrote:
Imagine you got your way, though, and CCP succumbed to the sheer weight of carebearism and made bumping a crime - where would you draw the line?

They will never make bumping a crime, but they are certainly looking into bumping (in general).
Mag's
Azn Empire
#779 - 2016-02-04 15:50:30 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
Imagine you got your way, though, and CCP succumbed to the sheer weight of carebearism and made bumping a crime - where would you draw the line?

They will never make bumping a crime, but they are certainly looking into bumping (in general).
They have always look into bumping in general. It's changed fairly often. So your point is?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Bella Jennie
Doomheim
#780 - 2016-02-04 15:53:04 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
Imagine you got your way, though, and CCP succumbed to the sheer weight of carebearism and made bumping a crime - where would you draw the line?

They will never make bumping a crime, but they are certainly looking into bumping (in general).


IF by some chance the do NOT make it a crime, I'll be very happy if they simply nerf the BUMPING mechanic altogether.
- maybe that's easier for them..

They must address this; it is so obviously UNBALANCED..

this game currently favors the DOUCHEBAGS