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Balancing bumping and looting mechanics

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bigbud skunkafella
Utama Incorporated
Astral Alliance
#421 - 2016-01-31 17:41:48 UTC
Just to stick my tuppence worth in, i've always thought that an inbuilt slow cycle ( say 15 mins - 10 mins depending on mjd skill lvl) mjd on freighters would provide an easy fix for the problem of unlimited bumping.

It would be easy to implement , give an ak freighter pilot some small chance of escape when bumped if used intelligently , and wouldn't be too op.

Freighter gets bumped as he jumps into system, he can choose to use the mjd to try and escape if he thinks he's closely aligned enough to a station or stargate, or wait till he sees the gank squad on dscan to try not being there when they land.

Obvious counter for the gankers would have to land a point on the target if the target hadnt used his mjd, which would take a bit of skill and judgment , which if u listen to how awesome they say they are shouldn't cause any issues :) .

Most of the time the freighter would probably still die, but it at least gives the ak pilot some slim chance of escape, rewards not being afk , and requires a wee bit of vigilance on the part of the bumper .

I've been present on many occasions when freighters have been bumped , sometimes for hours ( if i recall correctly i was part of a fleet that spent 4-5 hrs one night b4 successfully rescuing one ) . saving freighters is a lot harder than popping them, esp if they're strangers and won't accept fleet or web duels off ag fleets , which is understandable cos u know, this is eve .

the plus side from my point of view is the content that would be provided when the gank squad warp in jus as the target warps off , and land in the loving embrace of the ag fleets guns . :)

whats not to like?
o7 bb
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#422 - 2016-01-31 17:43:51 UTC
Brad Neece wrote:
Fine..."freely" was bad choice of wording. Forgive me for that noobish response. It was clear there was no intention of ganking the Orca, maybe it was only serving as a distraction. But I'll post bumper and Orca pilots...once I rewatch a Twitch stream to get that information.

Just post the twitch stream if that's easier. I'm happy to watch it myself.

Im not trying to be a pain here or anything. I'm neither a ganker, nor antiganker and the only thing we have to go by in these discussions are the words that we all write. I've tried in the past to interpret what people write as something different and been told I've been wrong, so now I just go by what people actually write.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#423 - 2016-01-31 17:45:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
give an ak freighter pilot some small chance of escape when bumped


Why? Why should they get anything more than they already have?

Just use webs, and don't get bumped to begin with. Asking for a get out of jail free card for when you've drastically failed is unacceptable.

Why should you be rewarded for failure?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#424 - 2016-01-31 17:48:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
Just to stick my tuppence worth in, i've always thought that an inbuilt slow cycle ( say 15 mins - 10 mins depending on mjd skill lvl) mjd on freighters would provide an easy fix for the problem of unlimited bumping.

It would be easy to implement , give an ak freighter pilot some small chance of escape when bumped if used intelligently , and wouldn't be too op.

Freighter gets bumped as he jumps into system, he can choose to use the mjd to try and escape if he thinks he's closely aligned enough to a station or stargate, or wait till he sees the gank squad on dscan to try not being there when they land.

Obvious counter for the gankers would have to land a point on the target if the target hadnt used his mjd, which would take a bit of skill and judgment , which if u listen to how awesome they say they are shouldn't cause any issues :) .

...

whats not to like?
o7 bb

It was already pointed out earlier in the thread when I raised the same suggestion, that the easy counter is that bumping Machariels will also fit an MJD and just jump to the freighter after it MJDs.

So it would actually make things worse for freighters because they'll have freely given the bumper 100km of range off the gate that won't need to be bumped.

Also, a point doesn't stop an MJD.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#425 - 2016-01-31 18:05:41 UTC
Brad Neece wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Brad Neece wrote:
My final suggestion in between this pillow fight of a thread :)......

If any ship is unable to reach warp within 20-30 minutes of starting the WarpTo/Dock process, collision detection is dropped for that ship. Most bumps last 15 minutes before gank anyway....so still fair? Most AGer have no problem with bumping itself....its just length of time those bumps can last. Ransomers still have to time bluff they have a fleet to kill if they choose too. If the bumped ship attempts to change is WarpTo location, timers start over. If they are smart its to a station or a safe spot to log off... if its a empty system. They can be followed to next system and the whole process starts over.

What affect will that have on trying to hold a super/titan in null or lowsec while waiting for a hictor or dictor?

Additionally, 20-30 minutes from when? If the bumping ship is changed to someone else, does the time reset, or is it from the first collision that happens?

If it's from the time of the first collision, then surely my best option as a freighter pilot would be to consider bumping myself if I think I might be bumped, so that the timer starts?

If it's not from the first collision, but is ship specific, then as per the OP several times in the thread, there are numerous bumping ships ready to go all the time, so it would be easy to swap them out and the change would have 0 effect on freighter bumping.


So to avoid the lowsec/null issue.... if you any scrams/disruptors are activated against the bump target, collision detection stays intact during that time.


You can't use a scram, disruptor or any other type of ewar against a super. Tackle has to be either a hictor or dictor, until then bumping is your only hope.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Brad Neece
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#426 - 2016-01-31 18:06:53 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Brad Neece wrote:
Fine..."freely" was bad choice of wording. Forgive me for that noobish response. It was clear there was no intention of ganking the Orca, maybe it was only serving as a distraction. But I'll post bumper and Orca pilots...once I rewatch a Twitch stream to get that information.

Just post the twitch stream if that's easier. I'm happy to watch it myself.

Im not trying to be a pain here or anything. I'm neither a ganker, nor antiganker and the only thing we have to go by in these discussions are the words that we all write. I've tried in the past to interpret what people write as something different and been told I've been wrong, so now I just go by what people actually write.



http://www.twitch.tv/ktivianne/v/38776975
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#427 - 2016-01-31 18:12:00 UTC
Brad Neece wrote:


OK, by security then....0.5 below collision never disabled. Yes, bumping is NOT an exploit....but just tonight I seen a orca bumped for an hour and finally let go. Atleast set a time limit, no? So not an exploit, just bumper being a douche for an hour because he can be. Either gank, convince them to pay ransom or let them go.


No. How about they avoid the bumping or have friends come and bail them out....much like with the super example. A super gets in trouble the pings go out and as soon as possible response fleets roll.


"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#428 - 2016-01-31 18:21:43 UTC
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
Just to stick my tuppence worth in, i've always thought that an inbuilt slow cycle ( say 15 mins - 10 mins depending on mjd skill lvl) mjd on freighters would provide an easy fix for the problem of unlimited bumping.


Yeah, because a bumping ship can't fit an MJD either. Roll

Quote:
I've been present on many occasions when freighters have been bumped , sometimes for hours ( if i recall correctly i was part of a fleet that spent 4-5 hrs one night b4 successfully rescuing one ) . saving freighters is a lot harder than popping them, esp if they're strangers and won't accept fleet or web duels off ag fleets , which is understandable cos u know, this is eve .


4-5 hours....trying to rescue a freighter? You didn't think to just gank the bumping ship? For chrissake why make your life harder than it has to be?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
bigbud skunkafella
Utama Incorporated
Astral Alliance
#429 - 2016-01-31 18:22:34 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
Just to stick my tuppence worth in, i've always thought that an inbuilt slow cycle ( say 15 mins - 10 mins depending on mjd skill lvl) mjd on freighters would provide an easy fix for the problem of unlimited bumping.

It would be easy to implement , give an ak freighter pilot some small chance of escape when bumped if used intelligently , and wouldn't be too op.

Freighter gets bumped as he jumps into system, he can choose to use the mjd to try and escape if he thinks he's closely aligned enough to a station or stargate, or wait till he sees the gank squad on dscan to try not being there when they land.

Obvious counter for the gankers would have to land a point on the target if the target hadnt used his mjd, which would take a bit of skill and judgment , which if u listen to how awesome they say they are shouldn't cause any issues :) .

...

whats not to like?
o7 bb

It was already pointed out earlier in the thread when I raised the same suggestion, that the easy counter is that bumping Machariels will also fit an MJD and just jump to the freighter after it MJDs.

So it would actually make things worse for freighters because they'll have freely given the bumper 100km of range off the gate that won't need to be bumped.

Also, a point doesn't stop an MJD.



a scram does i believe, tho correct me if i'm wrong. and having to fit a mjd on a mach means less tank . i also said intelligent use of the mjd, if the target feels he's nearly aligned to an escape , then the small amount of time he gets from using mjd might just get him out of the situation. also whats 100 km but a cupla minutes bumping anyway ?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#430 - 2016-01-31 18:25:35 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:

Also, a point doesn't stop an MJD.


Kinda like they don't understand basic mechanics.....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
bigbud skunkafella
Utama Incorporated
Astral Alliance
#431 - 2016-01-31 18:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: bigbud skunkafella
this is my main , ganking a mach means i give a kr to the very people i make my isk from . not all of us have multiple accounts and unlimited srp .

4-5 hrs bumping, your question should perhaps be why didn't they kill it ....
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#432 - 2016-01-31 18:34:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
Just to stick my tuppence worth in, i've always thought that an inbuilt slow cycle ( say 15 mins - 10 mins depending on mjd skill lvl) mjd on freighters would provide an easy fix for the problem of unlimited bumping.

It would be easy to implement , give an ak freighter pilot some small chance of escape when bumped if used intelligently , and wouldn't be too op.

Freighter gets bumped as he jumps into system, he can choose to use the mjd to try and escape if he thinks he's closely aligned enough to a station or stargate, or wait till he sees the gank squad on dscan to try not being there when they land.

Obvious counter for the gankers would have to land a point on the target if the target hadnt used his mjd, which would take a bit of skill and judgment , which if u listen to how awesome they say they are shouldn't cause any issues :) .

...

whats not to like?
o7 bb

It was already pointed out earlier in the thread when I raised the same suggestion, that the easy counter is that bumping Machariels will also fit an MJD and just jump to the freighter after it MJDs.

So it would actually make things worse for freighters because they'll have freely given the bumper 100km of range off the gate that won't need to be bumped.

Also, a point doesn't stop an MJD.



a scram does i believe, tho correct me if i'm wrong. and having to fit a mjd on a mach means less tank . i also said intelligent use of the mjd, if the target feels he's nearly aligned to an escape , then the small amount of time he gets from using mjd might just get him out of the situation. also whats 100 km but a cupla minutes bumping anyway ?

Yes a scram does. A scram is not a point.

How many Bumpng Machs get ganked? Based on zkillboard, almost none. Speed, not tank, is their bigger consideration, so if they had to fit an MJD, they just would.

If they also had to avoid bumping a freighter in the direction of a station or gate, they'd just do that too. It's not like it's hard to bump a ship out towards nothing. I'd bet they already do that, because otherwise freighters would just be warping off with no need for an MJD at all. If they are already heading towards a station or gate, they don't need an MJD to escape because their speed is above the 75% max when they are bumped and can warp. MJD would be pointless.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#433 - 2016-01-31 18:42:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
bigbud skunkafella wrote:



a scram does i believe, tho correct me if i'm wrong. and having to fit a mjd on a mach means less tank . i also said intelligent use of the mjd, if the target feels he's nearly aligned to an escape , then the small amount of time he gets from using mjd might just get him out of the situation. also whats 100 km but a cupla minutes bumping anyway ?


Yeah, a disruptor or a bubble won't though. And a Mach can also fit a MJD and jump right along with with the freighter.

And if you don't want to generate kill rights against gankers, then you and your buddies can shoot each other and spawn CONCORD. CONCORD response times are lower if they are on grid already.

C'mon guys, learn the mechanics and use them.

Oh, and what does tank have to do with it? Not like you guys are going to....you know...shoot the damn ship. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nitshe Razvedka
#434 - 2016-01-31 18:59:49 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Brad Neece wrote:
As 98% make their trip freely?


More than that. There were Red Frog numbers posted earlier, and they fail maybe 1% of their deliveries. And you can't very well chalk ALL of those up to ganking.

I think part of the problem here is the anti-ganker's anti-logic. Maybe they will be ok if we gank 100% of the Freighters. You see, according to anti-logic a ganker has no risk, because he loses his ship in 100% of the time. If we get to the point where we kill 100% of the Freighters there will be no risk left for them as well, so everything will be fine.


In Ima, here you have the 'entitled' ganker. Some one who needs to experience more of the game. Rather than macro farming freighters all day.

CCP can't continue to cater to the special needs of a minority, gankers with an obsessive compulsive disorder, no matter how loud their temper tantrums or tear rages. Enough is enough.

Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS.

Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#435 - 2016-01-31 19:05:44 UTC
Nitshe Razvedka wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Brad Neece wrote:
As 98% make their trip freely?


More than that. There were Red Frog numbers posted earlier, and they fail maybe 1% of their deliveries. And you can't very well chalk ALL of those up to ganking.

I think part of the problem here is the anti-ganker's anti-logic. Maybe they will be ok if we gank 100% of the Freighters. You see, according to anti-logic a ganker has no risk, because he loses his ship in 100% of the time. If we get to the point where we kill 100% of the Freighters there will be no risk left for them as well, so everything will be fine.


In Ima, here you have the 'entitled' ganker. Some one who needs to experience more of the game. Rather than macro farming freighters all day.

CCP can't continue to cater to the special needs of a minority, gankers with an obsessive compulsive disorder, no matter how loud their temper tantrums or tear rages. Enough is enough.
No one took the bait and reacted to your first attempt at a troll. This one is even worse than that tbh. So 0/10.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#436 - 2016-01-31 19:27:28 UTC
bigbud skunkafella wrote:
this is my main , ganking a mach means i give a kr to the very people i make my isk from . not all of us have multiple accounts and unlimited srp .

4-5 hrs bumping, your question should perhaps be why didn't they kill it ....


You get 3 characters per account.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#437 - 2016-01-31 19:28:55 UTC
Nitshe Razvedka wrote:
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Brad Neece wrote:
As 98% make their trip freely?


More than that. There were Red Frog numbers posted earlier, and they fail maybe 1% of their deliveries. And you can't very well chalk ALL of those up to ganking.

I think part of the problem here is the anti-ganker's anti-logic. Maybe they will be ok if we gank 100% of the Freighters. You see, according to anti-logic a ganker has no risk, because he loses his ship in 100% of the time. If we get to the point where we kill 100% of the Freighters there will be no risk left for them as well, so everything will be fine.


In Ima, here you have the 'entitled' ganker. Some one who needs to experience more of the game. Rather than macro farming freighters all day.

CCP can't continue to cater to the special needs of a minority, gankers with an obsessive compulsive disorder, no matter how loud their temper tantrums or tear rages. Enough is enough.


The Irony is strong with this one.

Complaining about people wanting special treatment while also demanding special treatment.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#438 - 2016-01-31 19:32:56 UTC
Dang it, I should have said "Bar Bets Trump Card" medal.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#439 - 2016-01-31 19:36:59 UTC
Does it mean I win Eve though?

On another note, the Wife has just informed me, that there is a guy out there with two. So now I know what she Googles. Lol

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#440 - 2016-01-31 19:38:37 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Does it mean I win Eve though?

On another note, the Wife has just informed me, that there is a guy out there with two. So now I know what she Googles. Lol


Wonder how long she had that little piece of trivia in the holster.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.