These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Balancing bumping and looting mechanics

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#281 - 2016-01-30 16:49:09 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:


I am not wanting to make the rules in my favor.



Of course you are, you want to defeat the action of an entire fleet solo with just the click of a button or just get rid of it altogether. You have a large number of ways to counter ganking already and hauler ganking is the LAST option for pirates in highsec these days for turning a profit. You people have already wiped out a great bulk of piracy in highsec and ganking these days is by far the single most punished and risky activity in the game. Yet again you peddle the lie that is ganking has no risk, a lie that has zero basis in fact.

All you need to beat a fleet of 50 gankers is a single low cost escort ship with webs, how is this very simple task too much to ask of you?
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#282 - 2016-01-30 16:52:50 UTC
So basically the anti-gankers are so bad at EVE and fail constantly daily all the time non stop that they created another whine thread to get a buff in their favour. Because we didn't have that already and they are still failing non stop daily without a break.

I guess if you are that bad at EVE and can't stop a gank even if all the mechanics in Highsec are already extremely in your favour you may as well write a whine forum post while loyal dunks some freighter right on top of your face and you are watching from the sideline.

Evil RatKid
KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#283 - 2016-01-30 16:58:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:


I am not wanting to make the rules in my favor.



Of course you are, you want to defeat the action of an entire fleet solo with just the click of a button or just get rid of it altogether. You have a large number of ways to counter ganking already and hauler ganking is the LAST option for pirates in highsec these days for turning a profit. You people have already wiped out a great bulk of piracy in highsec and ganking these days is by far the single most punished and risky activity in the game. Yet again you peddle the lie that is ganking has no risk, a lie that has zero basis in fact.

All you need to beat a fleet of 50 gankers is a single low cost escort ship with webs, how is this very simple task too much to ask of you?


I am not!! I am stopping the prolonged harassment with a spool up timer. The module works only in highsec... due to some thing with the Gates (come up with your own reason) . If you have a gank fleet.. gank away!! Go for it. If you looking to extort a ransom by harassing, that will go away because they have a way out eventually. I do agree, If they have a webber, that would be best. But even then, it is a crap shoot.

Then please tell me what Risk you have to gank? Please be detailed and tell me about it. I really want to know.
Iain Cariaba
#284 - 2016-01-30 17:04:19 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Oh, and there is no more sure way to look like an imbecile than by quoting Gevlon Goblin. Just so you know.

Not empty quoting.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#285 - 2016-01-30 17:05:38 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:

Then please tell me what Risk you have to gank? Please be detailed and tell me about it. I really want to know.


Concord, faction police, open to attack from everyone, wartargets, web escorts, logi escorts, blap excorts, people warping to a frigate 150km out in front of the freighter, the loot drop system, other gankers targeting gank ships, counter ganking the hauling ship used for looting, vultures, people shooting the wreck, gate guns, ECM excorts, counter bumping, smartbombs, poor warp ins, pre spawned concord.
KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#286 - 2016-01-30 17:07:47 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
So basically the anti-gankers are so bad at EVE and fail constantly daily all the time non stop that they created another whine thread to get a buff in their favour. Because we didn't have that already and they are still failing non stop daily without a break.

I guess if you are that bad at EVE and can't stop a gank even if all the mechanics in Highsec are already extremely in your favour you may as well write a whine forum post while loyal dunks some freighter right on top of your face and you are watching from the sideline.



Thanks again really adding nothing to the conversation, go keep taking fleet warps and push F1 like a good minion.

I'm not about removing the gank ability. If Code brings 25-30 ships to gank a freighter, with out a fleet of support for that freighter, it will probably die. I am not suggesting that change at all. That is Eve. It is other things related to the gank that need to change.
KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#287 - 2016-01-30 17:24:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:

Then please tell me what Risk you have to gank? Please be detailed and tell me about it. I really want to know.


Concord, faction police, open to attack from everyone, wartargets, web escorts, logi escorts, blap excorts, people warping to a frigate 150km out in front of the freighter, the loot drop system, other gankers targeting gank ships, counter ganking the hauling ship used for looting, vultures, people shooting the wreck, gate guns, ECM excorts, counter bumping, smartbombs, poor warp ins, pre spawned concord.



Concord... How so? Blowing up your ship after you ganked - Invalid. Your a Criminal.
Faction Police - Low - small chance of being picked off.
attacked from war targets - just like everyone else who has a war dec - Invalid
web escort - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target.
Logi Escorts - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target.
Blap - Escorts - Low - Seldom happens Gankers are not on grid long.
Warping to 150Km - Not Risk to you.
Other gankers - Low
Gate guns - Low
Shooting wreck - Low - it happens, but most of the time of the time wrecks are not popped.
ECM escorts - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target.
Counter Bumping - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target. (bumping the bumper is pretty rare, seems not an effective tactic)
Smart bombs - Low - can happen but then its a risk for everyone cause they are smart bombs.
Poor Warp ins - Welcome to Eve
PreSpawned Concord - Concord is pulled away as part of the process of the previous gank. If it is not, Pick another target.


So basically Low risk. For a high reward if you get the freighter.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#288 - 2016-01-30 17:29:02 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Remember before Crime watch came out? I bet you were making the same arguments back then also.


Yeah, and I was right, Crimewatch is abominable.


Quote:

No I don't want to remove risk from Highsec.


Yes, you do.


Quote:

I want it fair, No escort.. higher risk, NO HARASSMENT


Bumping is not harassment, period. You don't get to unilaterally and arbitrarily define something as harassment in order to get rid of it.

Quote:

Gankers = low risk... NEED more to obtain the higher reward.


Risk vs reward applies exclusively to PvE activity, specifically, only to things that generate assets into the game world.

Ganking is a PvP activity, and that means that the risk AND the reward are 100% in the hands of the opposing players. You do not get to nerf ganking or bumping just because haulers make bad choices.

We are taking advantage of their mistakes. That is fully intended gameplay, and you don't get to cut it off at the knees because you think that failing to defend yourself should have less consequences.


Quote:

So I make a reference to his stats... and I am the "imbecile".


Yep. He's basically world renowned for twisting math and stats to say whatever he wants them to say. His agenda overrides every other concern.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#289 - 2016-01-30 17:52:08 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:


Concord... How so? Blowing up your ship after you ganked - Invalid. Your a Criminal.
Faction Police - Low - small chance of being picked off.
attacked from war targets - just like everyone else who has a war dec - Invalid
web escort - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target.
Logi Escorts - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target.
Blap - Escorts - Low - Seldom happens Gankers are not on grid long.
Warping to 150Km - Not Risk to you.
Other gankers - Low
Gate guns - Low
Shooting wreck - Low - it happens, but most of the time of the time wrecks are not popped.
ECM escorts - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target.
Counter Bumping - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target. (bumping the bumper is pretty rare, seems not an effective tactic)
Smart bombs - Low - can happen but then its a risk for everyone cause they are smart bombs.
Poor Warp ins - Welcome to Eve
PreSpawned Concord - Concord is pulled away as part of the process of the previous gank. If it is not, Pick another target.


So basically Low risk. For a high reward if you get the freighter.


Concord: will kill you in a matter of seconds no matter what you do, to say thats no risk is moronic.

Faction police: garenteed to pick you off, they will kill any gank ship in seconds if you hang around and again, they react in seconds.

Wardec: so getting blown up by wardecers isnt a risk? they will not kill you? Again, a moronic argument they are a risk you must face.

web escort: gets the target into warp before you can catch it. How exactly is losing your target not a risk?

Logi escort: Keep the freighter alive while your fleet dies under concord and faction police guns. How exactly is that not a risk to a successful gank?

Blap escort: Just because people such as yourself are cowardly does not mean its not effective. Kill enough gankboats and they cant kill the target and a fleet of 5 instalocking cruisers can kill a lot of gankers in short order.

Warping to 150k: the target just got away, how is that not a risk?

Other gankers: it might be low but that doesn't stop it being a risk.

Gate guns: they will 100% shoot you if in range and they have a very large range and will slice though gankships like butter. thats not exactly low risk.

shooting the wreck: Again, its not the gankers fault people chose not to take this option, that risk is always there.

ECM: jam out enough gank ships and you fail the gank. How exactly is that not a risk?

Counter bumping: The freighter escapes, again, how is that not a risk? (It is infact a very effective tactic, people such as yourself just chose not to use it)

Poor warp ins: still a risk and a surprisingly common one

pre spawned concord: Again, its highly effective you people just chose to not use it. Christ even miners managed to adopt this tactic.
Iain Cariaba
#290 - 2016-01-30 18:06:50 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:

Then please tell me what Risk you have to gank? Please be detailed and tell me about it. I really want to know.


Concord, faction police, open to attack from everyone, wartargets, web escorts, logi escorts, blap excorts, people warping to a frigate 150km out in front of the freighter, the loot drop system, other gankers targeting gank ships, counter ganking the hauling ship used for looting, vultures, people shooting the wreck, gate guns, ECM excorts, counter bumping, smartbombs, poor warp ins, pre spawned concord.



Concord... How so? Blowing up your ship after you ganked - Invalid. Your a Criminal.
Faction Police - Low - small chance of being picked off.
attacked from war targets - just like everyone else who has a war dec - Invalid
web escort - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target.
Logi Escorts - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target.
Blap - Escorts - Low - Seldom happens Gankers are not on grid long.
Warping to 150Km - Not Risk to you.
Other gankers - Low
Gate guns - Low
Shooting wreck - Low - it happens, but most of the time of the time wrecks are not popped.
ECM escorts - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target.
Counter Bumping - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target. (bumping the bumper is pretty rare, seems not an effective tactic)
Smart bombs - Low - can happen but then its a risk for everyone cause they are smart bombs.
Poor Warp ins - Welcome to Eve
PreSpawned Concord - Concord is pulled away as part of the process of the previous gank. If it is not, Pick another target.


So basically Low risk. For a high reward if you get the freighter.

Individually they are low risk. However, gankers deal with most of them all at once, therefore they have a cumulative effect.

Oh, and see that phrase you used repeatedly there, "Pick another target." That's pretty much the point everyone's been trying to make to you. You don't need to add more penalties to ganking. Just make yourself less of a target, and you're safe while they go after the other schmuck who thought he could afk autopilot his freighter.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#291 - 2016-01-30 18:23:34 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:

Individually they are low risk. However, gankers deal with most of them all at once, therefore they have a cumulative effect.

Oh, and see that phrase you used repeatedly there, "Pick another target." That's pretty much the point everyone's been trying to make to you. You don't need to add more penalties to ganking. Just make yourself less of a target, and you're safe while they go after the other schmuck who thought he could afk autopilot his freighter.


It also begs the question if all of these things are not risks and ganking is indeed risk free why wont these white knights gank the gankers back? Gankships are profitable to gank so its not like they would be out of pocket.
KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#292 - 2016-01-30 18:34:39 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:

Then please tell me what Risk you have to gank? Please be detailed and tell me about it. I really want to know.


Concord, faction police, open to attack from everyone, wartargets, web escorts, logi escorts, blap excorts, people warping to a frigate 150km out in front of the freighter, the loot drop system, other gankers targeting gank ships, counter ganking the hauling ship used for looting, vultures, people shooting the wreck, gate guns, ECM excorts, counter bumping, smartbombs, poor warp ins, pre spawned concord.



Concord... How so? Blowing up your ship after you ganked - Invalid. Your a Criminal.
Faction Police - Low - small chance of being picked off.
attacked from war targets - just like everyone else who has a war dec - Invalid
web escort - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target.
Logi Escorts - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target.
Blap - Escorts - Low - Seldom happens Gankers are not on grid long.
Warping to 150Km - Not Risk to you.
Other gankers - Low
Gate guns - Low
Shooting wreck - Low - it happens, but most of the time of the time wrecks are not popped.
ECM escorts - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target.
Counter Bumping - Not a Risk to you - Pick another target. (bumping the bumper is pretty rare, seems not an effective tactic)
Smart bombs - Low - can happen but then its a risk for everyone cause they are smart bombs.
Poor Warp ins - Welcome to Eve
PreSpawned Concord - Concord is pulled away as part of the process of the previous gank. If it is not, Pick another target.


So basically Low risk. For a high reward if you get the freighter.

Individually they are low risk. However, gankers deal with most of them all at once, therefore they have a cumulative effect.

Oh, and see that phrase you used repeatedly there, "Pick another target." That's pretty much the point everyone's been trying to make to you. You don't need to add more penalties to ganking. Just make yourself less of a target, and you're safe while they go after the other schmuck who thought he could afk autopilot his freighter.


I am saying Risk wise, it is not a risk. You are risking very little going after a freighter with more logi support.
you throw more ships at the freighter (as is often done). You have no penalty for becoming criminal yet again. YOu loose your ship.. ehhh.. not a risk.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#293 - 2016-01-30 18:42:54 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:


I am saying Risk wise, it is not a risk. You are risking very little going after a freighter with more logi support.
you throw more ships at the freighter (as is often done). You have no penalty for becoming criminal yet again. YOu loose your ship.. ehhh.. not a risk.



So go gank them if you feel that way, they are profitable to kill.
KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#294 - 2016-01-30 18:47:21 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Oh, and there is no more sure way to look like an imbecile than by quoting Gevlon Goblin. Just so you know.

Not empty quoting.


I did not think I had to spell it out. I gave you a summary that Code is doing fine with cash, that was merely my reference for my statement. Which is more then was stated saying Ohhh Code is net negative... and nothing to back it up.

How about another reference, if you look at minerbumping, the war treasure chest seems to be doing just fine.


KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#295 - 2016-01-30 18:55:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:


I am saying Risk wise, it is not a risk. You are risking very little going after a freighter with more logi support.
you throw more ships at the freighter (as is often done). You have no penalty for becoming criminal yet again. YOu loose your ship.. ehhh.. not a risk.



So go gank them if you feel that way, they are profitable to kill.


Sounds like you never have tried to. They undock (protected), and then insta-fleet-warp to safe, then fleet warp around. and warp to target. and push F1.

If they cross a gate, then perhaps one will get picked off. Not enough to make a large impact. But you have to know where they are going, and they could have a number of bumpers across different systems. If they have 25/30 ships they are already fit with enough overkill SO that is why they don't ganking them does not work.

Unless you have ideas....? So please share if you have a tactic. :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#296 - 2016-01-30 19:12:50 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
KickAss Tivianne wrote:


Sounds like you never have tried to. They undock (protected), and then insta-fleet-warp to safe, then fleet warp around. and warp to target. and push F1.

If they cross a gate, then perhaps one will get picked off. Not enough to make a large impact. But you have to know where they are going, and they could have a number of bumpers across different systems. If they have 25/30 ships they are already fit with enough overkill SO that is why they don't ganking them does not work.

Unless you have ideas....? So please share if you have a tactic. :)




So what you are saying is they are taking steps to avoid this very thing from happening.

So why don't you employ those very tactics?
Iain Cariaba
#297 - 2016-01-30 19:38:47 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:


I am saying Risk wise, it is not a risk. You are risking very little going after a freighter with more logi support.
you throw more ships at the freighter (as is often done). You have no penalty for becoming criminal yet again. YOu loose your ship.. ehhh.. not a risk.



So go gank them if you feel that way, they are profitable to kill.


Sounds like you never have tried to. They undock (protected), and then insta-fleet-warp to safe, then fleet warp around. and warp to target. and push F1.

If they cross a gate, then perhaps one will get picked off. Not enough to make a large impact. But you have to know where they are going, and they could have a number of bumpers across different systems. If they have 25/30 ships they are already fit with enough overkill SO that is why they don't ganking them does not work.

Unless you have ideas....? So please share if you have a tactic. :)

Gank the bumping mach. If there's no risk or penalty for gankers taking out a freighter, then there's equally no risk or penalty for you to gank the bumping ship. Doesn't matter how many catalysts they undock when the freighter isn't being bumped anymore and warps away before they arrive.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#298 - 2016-01-30 20:01:31 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:

Sounds like you never have tried to.


One of us hasn't.

The rest of us have sat on gates in a sebo Thrasher and popped a few of them before Concord finishes them off, then laughed as they missed the gank because they lost too many volleys.

Oh, and then the wreck, of course. Hey, I just cost them hundreds of millions of isk (not to mention wasted the criminal cooldowns for a twenty man fleet) for a net investment of eight million on my part. And the sec status loss for shooting a wreck is pretty pathetic to boot, so you can't even say that I lost anything.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#299 - 2016-01-30 22:10:06 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
I am saying Risk wise, it is not a risk. You are risking very little going after a freighter with more logi support.
you throw more ships at the freighter (as is often done). You have no penalty for becoming criminal yet again. YOu loose your ship.. ehhh.. not a risk.

I love your bias view point, no matter how illogical it is.

So you wish to concentrate on risk. So how many freighter runs are there in a day? There has to be quite a lot right?

So before we start down this line of thought, how about you provide me with your idea of what that number may be? I'm thinking it's in the thousands, but please tell us your thoughts.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#300 - 2016-01-30 22:23:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Gank the bumping mach. If there's no risk or penalty for gankers taking out a freighter, then there's equally no risk or penalty for you to gank the bumping ship. Doesn't matter how many catalysts they undock when the freighter isn't being bumped anymore and warps away before they arrive.


There is no risk or penalty for the BUMPER.
Penalties for gankers are such that none of them prevents them from being functional in hisec while keeping -10 sec status, hence, for all practical purposes irrelevant. Again, stop turning this topic into a discussion of freighter ganking and keep on the topic of freighter bumping in hisec.
In terms of potential ideas - I'd be all for some form of anti-bumping stat change for freighters (increase their mass? althought that would screw up wh-s so probably no) or a module which would allow for active players to get out of bumping situation without requiring webber alt.

As for loot transfers - two ideas - a) tie it to suspect switches (you have to have switch to yellow to be able to accept transfer) AND add a prompt saying you're about to go suspect OR b) completely remove ability to transfer cargo resulting in suspect flags and only allow looting the container. Also, while suspect and in hisec, remove ability to jettison or transfer cargo.