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Balancing bumping and looting mechanics

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Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#261 - 2016-01-30 03:42:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Brad Neece wrote:
3. Fleet Hanger owners must accept looted items before they are dropped into ship and take a Suspect Timer for it

Avoid having to manually allow it, by having safety yellow....but still go Suspect once its dropped in.

This gives risk to all looters.

How will this work out for an Orca pilot being used in a belt or ice field by miners to transfer ore and loot from rats to?

If a fleet hangar owner has to take a suspect timer to accept items being dropped into the fleet hangar, that's going to kill the use of an Orca as increased storage for a mining fleet.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#262 - 2016-01-30 03:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Safe looting I was refering to involves use of a ship with fleet hanger (DST or Orca, 50k m3) and a disposable alt. You get them into fleet, open fleet hanger for fleet members, land them next to a wreck (they usually come along with the ganking crew) and use disposable alt to transfer loot to dst. The disposable alt gets tagged as a suspect but DST (ship holding the actual loot) is flag-free and warps off. It is easy and extremely safe for the looter/ganker. Now, fixing this mechanic would open MORE (not less) content as looters would have to time their moves better, HICs would become a truly useful anti-ganking/anti-looting tool and there would be some actual risk involved in the act of looting. See, content for all involved, and that's what we all want more of - risk and content, right? Right!?

That makes a lot more sense than the explanation in the OP.

How would it be fixed?

Before the alt that loots does any looting, they are not suspect at all, so indistinguishable from anyone else in highsec. The orca/DST pilot is not doing anything wrong just by making their fleet hangar available to fleet members. It's something my boosting alt does regularly (I mine ice in highsec for POS fuel, jump fuel, Strontium Clathrates and liquid ozone for cynos).

The only thing the Orca/DST pilot is doing is sitting, accepting material into their fleet hangar.

So if the act of accepting material into a fleet hangar is going to somehow trigger a suspect flag (since sitting in space wouldn't be logical), then that is going to have a massive negative impact on other highsec activities, particularly that of miners.

Personally, I'd have no problem. I'd adapt my operations around it, but if the idea is to bring content for all, then the tears that would be generated from a change would be enormous, because surely this would be an across the board change?

If it was something only aimed at characters that are suspect, then it would introduce an hilarious new awoxing technique; as someone could join a mining fleet, loot a wreck that is yellow and immediately transfer the content to an orca fleet hangar sending it suspect through no fault of it's own. I imaging there'd be lots of tears from that too.
Brad Neece
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2016-01-30 04:06:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Brad Neece
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Brad Neece wrote:
3. Fleet Hanger owners must accept looted items before they are dropped into ship and take a Suspect Timer for it

Avoid having to manually allow it, by having safety yellow....but still go Suspect once its dropped in.

This gives risk to all looters.

How will this work out for an Orca pilot being used in a belt or ice field by miners to transfer ore and loot from rats to?

If a fleet hangar owner has to take a suspect timer to accept items being dropped into the fleet hangar, that's going to kill the use of an Orca as increased storage for a mining fleet.






Well....That's not the same. It's fine as his fleet members didn't loot somebodies wreck illegally. And if by chance they did the Orca pilot gets a pop up asking if he accepts, as long as he the orca pilot has his safety green...he will always get the pop up asking before illegal goods are taken on board. If all items legal....no pop up.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#264 - 2016-01-30 05:28:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Brad Neece wrote:
Well....That's not the same. It's fine as his fleet members didn't loot somebodies wreck illegally. And if by chance they did the Orca pilot gets a pop up asking if he accepts, as long as he the orca pilot has his safety green...he will always get the pop up asking before illegal goods are taken on board. If all items legal....no pop up.

This would be hilarious.

In the ice belts in Ignebaener (?sp) where my alt mines ice, there is a large mining fleet there that runs a dozen (sometimes more) mining barges, all feeding ice into the orca. They also salvage and loot wrecks that are created from NPC rats.

I can't imagine anyone wanting to be continuously clicking "yes accept" over and over and over. As creatures of habit, it won't take long before players set their orca to yellow safety, because waiting for someone to click accept before you can transfer something to them will eat into efficiency. Alternatively of course, the forum will be filled with F&I requests to make accepting items automatic.

What you are proposing will be the new way to awox and it will be extremely funny when awoxers are able to deliberately loot yellow wrecks and then transfer to an Orca to make the Orca pilot suspect, having done nothing wrong himself. That will be the only mechanic in the game where it will be possible for 1 player to make another one suspect without that other player doing anything. Awesome outcome.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#265 - 2016-01-30 06:47:29 UTC
See what I mean about this all being discussed to death?

Yes, with looting you quickly come to the problem either you open ships up to being made suspect without clicking a button, which really would be one of those mechanics people would use to trick others into going suspect for AWOXing purposes, or you significantly reduce the utility of the shared hanger by demanding constant clicks. And even if you do solve it somehow, that still leaves the launder-through-a-jetcan method (or a Mobile Depot even) as an almost equivalent method to avoid flagging a hauler.

The only way to do it properly is to flag the item itself as 'stolen' and make the hauler actively click a button to accept anything with that flag but then you hit the database problem where many items cannot carry such a flag. The only way I can see around this (without a major rewrite of the item database) is to make illegally acquired loot spawn in a special container in the wreck that would carry a 'stolen' flag. Anyone who had this container would get a suspect flag and the game would not allow it to be looted or transferred to a shared hanger wthout spawning a specific dialog box. The container could only be opened and the items removed in a station.

That is a bit of an ugly hack, and I am not sure if it as well is technically feasible (what about items that are already in a container when the ship is destroyed?) and would have the obvious problems of not allowing players to loot only specific items and making recovery of large volume loot potentially impossible for some players. That would impact lowsec PvPers significantly, who don't usually fly with a hauler for loot so on balance. I don't see this as a viable solution even if it were possible.

I just don't see an easy fix without some change to the way flags are assigned and tracked. Maybe if there is a Smuggler Expansion and the way illegal items are tracked by the game is updated, CCP will look at some way of giving all items flags to determine illegality. But it isn't a trivial fix so don't expect a change to looting mechanic anytime soon even if I agree one would be desirable.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Brad Neece
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2016-01-30 06:54:41 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Brad Neece wrote:
Well....That's not the same. It's fine as his fleet members didn't loot somebodies wreck illegally. And if by chance they did the Orca pilot gets a pop up asking if he accepts, as long as he the orca pilot has his safety green...he will always get the pop up asking before illegal goods are taken on board. If all items legal....no pop up.

This would be hilarious.

In the ice belts in Ignebaener (?sp) where my alt mines ice, there is a large mining fleet there that runs a dozen (sometimes more) mining barges, all feeding ice into the orca. They also salvage and loot wrecks that are created from NPC rats.

I can't imagine anyone wanting to be continuously clicking "yes accept" over and over and over. As creatures of habit, it won't take long before players set their orca to yellow safety, because waiting for someone to click accept before you can transfer something to them will eat into efficiency. Alternatively of course, the forum will be filled with F&I requests to make accepting items automatic.

What you are proposing will be the new way to awox and it will be extremely funny when awoxers are able to deliberately loot yellow wrecks and then transfer to an Orca to make the Orca pilot suspect, having done nothing wrong himself. That will be the only mechanic in the game where it will be possible for 1 player to make another one suspect without that other player doing anything. Awesome outcome.


If all items transferring were obtained legally....there will not be a popup needing "yes accept" constantly. Now IF somebody tries to transfer items they just stole in the past 15 minutes(Suspect Timer)... that's when "yes accept" is needed from the Orca pilot or Block option there as well. He is afterall accepting stolen goods onto his ship, no? That should be Suspect for the Orca pilot. If the originally owners decide they wanted back what was stolen from them....they are out of luck unless they gank the Orca that now has those items and in that case Concord kill them for even attempting LOL.


Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#267 - 2016-01-30 07:13:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Brad Neece wrote:
If all items transferring were obtained legally....there will not be a popup needing "yes accept" constantly. Now IF somebody tries to transfer items they just stole in the past 15 minutes(Suspect Timer)... that's when "yes accept" is needed from the Orca pilot or Block option there as well. He is afterall accepting stolen goods onto his ship, no? That should be Suspect for the Orca pilot. If the originally owners decide they wanted back what was stolen from them....they are out of luck unless they gank the Orca that now has those items and in that case Concord kill them for even attempting LOL.

Now this is becoming confusing.

Is it something taken within the last 15 minutes, so attached to the player's state (since an item has no idea of time within crimewatch), or something that was stolen, so attached to the item?

If it is attached to the player, then the item can be anything whether taken legally or not.

If it's attached to the item, then I could loot something illegally and be suspect for 15 minutes. Even put it in a hangar somewhere if I want and then take it out after that, when I'm no longer suspect and transfer it. I could even trade it to someone in station and set it up so they transfer it innocently.

For example, I could go shoot an alt of mine that is carrying mining crystals. Loot them illegally and then later on, put them in a mining barge. Something that looks totally normal in the context of a mining fleet. Then transfer them to the Orca hold.

Additionally, I think you are thinking that items have more stats attached to them then they do. Anything that is packaged is just a reference to a TypeID. It isn't an object while it is packaged, so can't know it's state as being stolen or not. It's not the items that make someone suspect, but the act of looting from a wreck or container that doesn't belong to them.

On top of that, even in the instance where the individual item could contain it's stolen state, if a callback is attached to that item to call a Crimewatch check when it is moved, that's thousands of additional checks every tick of the server, right across the game, just to deal with one issue of an alt looting so that an anti-ganker could shoot because they don't want to do something illegal.

Nullsec, J-Space, and Lowsec would all result in a heap of extra calculations on the server everytime an item is moved, plus all the totally legal movements that occur every tick of the server.

Good luck with that proposal.

If I was an anti-ganker and wasn't able to stop the gank, why wouldn't I just shoot the looting alt as soon as he goes suspect?

That seems like a totally viable way to stop the looting and force the freighter/orca/dst pilot to finish it and go suspect himself.
Brad Neece
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#268 - 2016-01-30 07:28:35 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
See what I mean about this all being discussed to death?

Yes, with looting you quickly come to the problem either you open ships up to being made suspect without clicking a button, which really would be one of those mechanics people would use to trick others into going suspect for AWOXing purposes, or you significantly reduce the utility of the shared hanger by demanding constant clicks. And even if you do solve it somehow, that still leaves the launder-through-a-jetcan method (or a Mobile Depot even) as an almost equivalent method to avoid flagging a hauler.

The only way to do it properly is to flag the item itself as 'stolen' and make the hauler actively click a button to accept anything with that flag but then you hit the database problem where many items cannot carry such a flag. The only way I can see around this (without a major rewrite of the item database) is to make illegally acquired loot spawn in a special container in the wreck that would carry a 'stolen' flag. Anyone who had this container would get a suspect flag and the game would not allow it to be looted or transferred to a shared hanger wthout spawning a specific dialog box. The container could only be opened and the items removed in a station.

That is a bit of an ugly hack, and I am not sure if it as well is technically feasible (what about items that are already in a container when the ship is destroyed?) and would have the obvious problems of not allowing players to loot only specific items and making recovery of large volume loot potentially impossible for some players. That would impact lowsec PvPers significantly, who don't usually fly with a hauler for loot so on balance. I don't see this as a viable solution even if it were possible.

I just don't see an easy fix without some change to the way flags are assigned and tracked. Maybe if there is a Smuggler Expansion and the way illegal items are tracked by the game is updated, CCP will look at some way of giving all items flags to determine illegality. But it isn't a trivial fix so don't expect a change to looting mechanic anytime soon even if I agree one would be desirable.



When items are "Loot All" illegally.. maybe creates a kind of Plastic Wrap on the spot? If ship destroyed....Plastic Wrap jettisons 1st in a container or dice roll destroyed, then ship explodes. Plastic Wrap still Yellow unless somebody is brave enough to take the risk of looting it again.
Brad Neece
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#269 - 2016-01-30 07:44:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Brad Neece
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Brad Neece wrote:
If all items transferring were obtained legally....there will not be a popup needing "yes accept" constantly. Now IF somebody tries to transfer items they just stole in the past 15 minutes(Suspect Timer)... that's when "yes accept" is needed from the Orca pilot or Block option there as well. He is afterall accepting stolen goods onto his ship, no? That should be Suspect for the Orca pilot. If the originally owners decide they wanted back what was stolen from them....they are out of luck unless they gank the Orca that now has those items and in that case Concord kill them for even attempting LOL.

Now this is becoming confusing.

Is it something taken within the last 15 minutes, so attached to the player's state (since an item has no idea of time within crimewatch), or something that was stolen, so attached to the item?

If it is attached to the player, then the item can be anything whether taken legally or not.

If it's attached to the item, then I could loot something illegally and be suspect for 15 minutes. Even put it in a hangar somewhere if I want and then take it out after that, when I'm no longer suspect and transfer it. I could even trade it to someone in station and set it up so they transfer it innocently.

For example, I could go shoot an alt of mine that is carrying mining crystals. Loot them illegally and then later on, put them in a mining barge. Something that looks totally normal in the context of a mining fleet. Then transfer them to the Orca hold.

Additionally, I think you are thinking that items have more stats attached to them then they do. Anything that is packaged is just a reference to a TypeID. It isn't an object while it is packaged, so can't know it's state as being stolen or not. It's not the items that make someone suspect, but the act of looting from a wreck or container that doesn't belong to them.

On top of that, even in the instance where the individual item could contain it's stolen state, if a callback is attached to that item to call a Crimewatch check when it is moved, that's thousands of additional checks every tick of the server, right across the game, just to deal with one issue of an alt looting so that an anti-ganker could shoot because they don't want to do something illegal.

Nullsec, J-Space, and Lowsec would all result in a heap of extra calculations on the server everytime an item is moved, plus all the totally legal movements that occur every tick of the server.

Good luck with that proposal.

If I was an anti-ganker and wasn't able to stop the gank, why wouldn't I just shoot the looting alt as soon as he goes suspect?

That seems like a totally viable way to stop the looting and force the freighter/orca/dst pilot to finish it and go suspect himself.




You have good points, and I'm only throwing suggestions out there, if the server doesnt allow for more stats for items in server allows, then hey my suggestion sucks :)... But maybe create a Plastic Wrap of sort for illegally looted items. That can only be broken open, or transfered in station. Orca can take on items, any Plastic Wraps is ignored.

And yes AGers do shoot loot.....so much so that CODE./Goon are complaining about hitpoint of wreckage. Yes that's a rumor and possible wrong....forgive me :)
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#270 - 2016-01-30 07:45:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Brad Neece wrote:
When items are "Loot All" illegally.. maybe creates a kind of Plastic Wrap on the spot? If ship destroyed....Plastic Wrap jettisons 1st in a container or dice roll destroyed, then ship explodes. Plastic Wrap still Yellow unless somebody is brave enough to take the risk of looting it again.

Edit: I reread it, so edited my post to just the last sentence.

Surely it's much easier just to shoot the suspect looting alt and none of this extra special case stuff is needed?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#271 - 2016-01-30 07:58:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Brad Neece wrote:
And yes AGers do shoot loot.....so much so that CODE./Goon are complaining about hitpoint of wreckage. Yes that's a rumor and possible wrong....forgive me :)

Shooting the loot is a perfectly fine option and if gankers are complaining that the HP of wrecks is too low, well that's part of the risk they take on when they gank - risk of no payday from the gank.

This is the thing that gets me with a lot of suggestions. Here's a perfectly good option that can really impact ganking operations and 100% a player action, whiich is great.

Why call for changes in mechanics to nerf gankers, when as a player you can already do it?

Get the mechanics out of the way. They don't need to do more than they already do.
Brad Neece
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#272 - 2016-01-30 08:08:07 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Brad Neece wrote:
When items are "Loot All" illegally.. maybe creates a kind of Plastic Wrap on the spot? If ship destroyed....Plastic Wrap jettisons 1st in a container or dice roll destroyed, then ship explodes. Plastic Wrap still Yellow unless somebody is brave enough to take the risk of looting it again.

Hang on. If I understand that correctly, you are saying looting something now has a chance that your ship explodes on the spot? Also, that if a ship carrying "Illegal loot" dies, that loot is jettisoned into a container rather than staying in the wreck.

Surely you're kidding? One of the great things about Eve is the whole 'Eve is Real' aspect. That while it's a game, in many ways it's possible to see it as an alternative timeline of our existing Universe as it is under the Lore. I hate to try to apply real universe physics to the game (as there are many examples that are not realistic, such as space flight), but that seems totally against common sense to have stuff automatically eject into a container just because it was previously looted illegally, and really crazy for a ship to blow up because it transferred a totally inert item into it's hold.

Surely it's much easier just to shoot the suspect looting alt and none of this extra special case stuff is needed?




No no no and no...If your are caught and killed. When you ship explodes, any created Plastic Wrap or "illegal loot" Wrap is, by a dice roll, either destroyed or jettisoned within a container beside normal wreckage. The wreckage is White/Blue.....the Illegal Loot Wrap, now in a container is still a Suspect trigger if not picked up by the original owners of those items.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#273 - 2016-01-30 08:15:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Brad Neece wrote:
No no no and no...If your are caught and killed. When you ship explodes, any created Plastic Wrap or "illegal loot" Wrap is, by a dice roll, either destroyed or jettisoned within a container beside normal wreckage. The wreckage is White/Blue.....the Illegal Loot Wrap, now in a container is still a Suspect trigger if not picked up by the original owners of those items.

You replied way after my edit. Forum bug I assume.
Brad Neece
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#274 - 2016-01-30 08:18:40 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Brad Neece wrote:
No no no and no...If your are caught and killed. When you ship explodes, any created Plastic Wrap or "illegal loot" Wrap is, by a dice roll, either destroyed or jettisoned within a container beside normal wreckage. The wreckage is White/Blue.....the Illegal Loot Wrap, now in a container is still a Suspect trigger if not picked up by the original owners of those items.

You replied way after my edit.



I realized that...oops
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#275 - 2016-01-30 10:49:50 UTC
All of this assumes that someone is going to take the time to filter 165k-1.2 million m3 through a DST in the first place. Again even if it did happen you have a bottleneck that is going to cause everything to at best slow down which means people can either vulture on the wreck or just pop it and destroy the goods. Not to mention that things in a freight container will never fir nor will plastic wraps past a point. You are asking for nerfs on a myth that will have a greater impact on other activities not related with ganking.

This is another freighter style nerf in the making.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#276 - 2016-01-30 12:58:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

This is another freighter style nerf in the making.


Exactly this.

I really can't figure out why they didn't learn their lesson from the freighter thread. The morons who cried for ten years to get fitting slots on freighters somehow convinced themselves that it would be nothing but a net buff.

Unfortunately for them, CCP hasn't completely forgotten what game balance is just yet.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#277 - 2016-01-30 16:17:59 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
However the bumping mechanic, if you happen to fall into the trap should not keep you in limbo for a long time.


Says who?

Quote:

Either they have a gank fleet ready in 5-10 min.. and go for it... or let ya go.


Nope. You do not get to dictate what they do with their player freedom. Either free yourself with a game mechanic, or accept that your death is deserved and just self destruct already.


Quote:

And if they do kill it... make the punishments for criminals get harder and harder and more expensive to recover from with tags etc...


No.

Theirs is the ONLY playstyle in highsec that has any consequences to begin with. They don't need anymore because you can't be asked to defend yourself halfway correctly.

Stop trying to have bad, lazy, sloppy play subsidized by the mechanics. People who play the game wrong are supposed to die.


First point... Ohhh so I don't get to dictate... But you get to dictate what they do with their "player freedom". Ego??

2nd point - Deserved by who? You dictate that? Yet another Ego comment.

3rd - This is High sec... I understand it is not cute and fuzzy land. Like I said. Freighter pilots do take a risk to fly though solo. THey can be ganked. I don't want to remove that risk. But you as a ganker need to assume more risk for repeated ganks. There is no risk (FacPolice is not a risk) to attack a freighter that is assuming risk by flying solo.

Please don't tell me about your poor operating lost. You know how to stop that? Let me help:
stop ganking freighters.
Stop ganking empty freighters. Choose targets wisely. If you are doing this to make a statement... accept the loss.

But lets look at the actual TRUTH to how Code is doing...
http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-kills-of-2015-code.html

Awwww seems it seems like Code is alive and well from those stats your arguments just don't stand up. Even if you don't agree with GreedyGoblin with all his view points, the numbers he runs is math.

So I should feel sorry and want to make things easier for Code and others to gank? I don't think so. This is why we need Crimewatch 2.0!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#278 - 2016-01-30 16:28:58 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:

First point... Ohhh so I don't get to dictate... But you get to dictate what they do with their "player freedom". Ego??


Yep. You don't get to dictate jack **** to anybody else what they do with their player freedom. Certainly not because you aren't smart enough to bring a web escort.

Quote:

2nd point - Deserved by who?


You. Defend yourself, or die. But don't cry about the obvious consequences of the choices you made.


Quote:

I don't want to remove that risk.


Yes you do. That's pretty obvious from your posting.


Quote:

But you as a ganker need to assume more risk for repeated ganks.


Not from the NPCs, I don't. If you want something done, do it yourself. Quit asking to have your hand held. If you think gankers should have more risk, then be a real player and bring risk to them. That's what the gankers are doing, after all. They think hauling should have more risk, so they bring risk to the haulers.

That's how the game is supposed to work.

Oh, and there is no more sure way to look like an imbecile than by quoting Gevlon Goblin. Just so you know.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#279 - 2016-01-30 16:30:45 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
I am not saying make freighters immune to bumping... Where Did I say that? They can be bumped for a while, but there comes a point when its just harassment and maybe they don't even have a gank fleet out.
You called for the introduction of a button for freighter pilots that allows them to auto-escape a bumper by pushing it. That is the very definition of "immunity".

There are already rules against harassment. If you feel "harassed", file a petition and ask CCP to step in.

But for the record, having your ship bumped or exploded in this PvP game is intended game play. You are not entitled to fly everywhere safely or unimpeded. Use the tools at your disposal to fly your freighter safely, or just fly something else.

KickAss Tivianne wrote:
2. If a criminal cat scoops loot from a freighter it ganks. and then throws it out in a can. it should be yellow, and who ever picks it up is yellow. Since all the cats that are ganking will be FR, who ever ends up scooping the STOLEN loot, should go yellow also. It should not be "free and clear" just cause they ejected it.
Just steal it. The loot is not safe until it is back in a station. This is the exact same situation the gankers face after exploding someone. If you want the loot, go take it. Otherwise, why should you be able to affect that loot without CONCORD intervening? More importantly, why should CCP exempt you from a mechanic that is designed to promote conflict and explosions?

I repeat, if you want that loot so bad, just go take it. There is nothing forbidding you from doing so.

KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Lastly, Ganking is alive and well.
Miner ganking is a former shadow of itself and near an all time low in the history of this game. Professional freighter pilots make almost 99% of their trips safely. Highsec has never been mechanically more safe than it is today.

There is no pressing need to add yet more safety to highsec.

KickAss Tivianne wrote:
What has been removed are the exploits that people have found around the system. Please don't mistake a bug as a nerf.
These are not exploits. They are what as known as "emergent game play" something that CCP likes to see take place in their PvP sandbox game. If they thought they were exploits, or unbalanced, they would fix them like they did with Hyperdunking. If CCP didn't want freighters to be vulnerable in highsec they would change some stats or even lock out all aggressive modules.

I guess I don't blame you for asking to have the rules re-written in your favour. It is a strategy that has worked before and will likely work again. I just don't see how you can do so with no sense of shame or recognition of what you are doing. I am very open to new suggestions that make the game better, but these suggestions of yours do nothing but dramatically increase safety for targets, and make more work for highsec aggressors without even a pretense to make a better game for all.

Go back to the drawing board and try to come up with something that's sole purpose isn't to stifle conflict and benefit you if you want to have any chance of it being implemented.



I did say there could be a a role bonus for that, maybe a module.. (Which first they would have to fit... maybe have some negative effect).. Either way It would have a spool up timer to activate. We could say 5-10 minutes.. maybe 15?? That would give a gank fleet time to gank if they were ready... if this was their target. Not just keep ther freighter in limbo for soooooooooo long. Those are details to the issue.

Its not the matter of wanting loot... I don't want it. Its the mechanics of how the loot is transferred. The ganking criminal ships are right there. They should not be able to loot if they have a Criminal timer. A neutral will need to do such things.

I am not wanting to make the rules in my favor. It is currently way on your favor, and I know you want nothing to change because you are reaping the rewards of these flaws. So you want to hold on as long as you can. But I sense times are changing.
KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#280 - 2016-01-30 16:46:26 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:

First point... Ohhh so I don't get to dictate... But you get to dictate what they do with their "player freedom". Ego??


Yep. You don't get to dictate jack **** to anybody else what they do with their player freedom. Certainly not because you aren't smart enough to bring a web escort.

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2nd point - Deserved by who?


You. Defend yourself, or die. But don't cry about the obvious consequences of the choices you made.


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I don't want to remove that risk.


Yes you do. That's pretty obvious from your posting.


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But you as a ganker need to assume more risk for repeated ganks.


Not from the NPCs, I don't. If you want something done, do it yourself. Quit asking to have your hand held. If you think gankers should have more risk, then be a real player and bring risk to them. That's what the gankers are doing, after all. They think hauling should have more risk, so they bring risk to the haulers.

That's how the game is supposed to work.

Oh, and there is no more sure way to look like an imbecile than by quoting Gevlon Goblin. Just so you know.



So your stance is Everything now is they way it needs to be in the future, and nothing should change? You need to go back to 8 bit Atari.

Im not saying I dictate it. I am opening the forums, I am giving suggestions, and can be tweaked. Patches and features come up all the time. Rules change. Remember before Crime watch came out? I bet you were making the same arguments back then also.


Ok..I will AGAIN give a cliff notes answer your comments that I have already answered 1000 times. Even with a Escort, it is a luck of the draw.
No I don't want to remove risk from Highsec. I want it fair, No escort.. higher risk, NO HARASSMENT

Gankers = low risk... NEED more to obtain the higher reward.

As for Quoting The Goblin, I expect comments like that from a Ganker... You have no problems telling everyone about your love of James 8675309. So I make a reference to his stats... and I am the "imbecile".... Cause I am showing the computation of his work. It really was not for you to look at. Just those who want to balance your lies. Have a good day!