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The Ferox is underpowered and needs a buff
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Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#61 - 2016-01-28 21:38:23 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
What about your targeting range? You are scraping the edge of your range with plutonium.

Not even close. The Brutix has 75km targeting range. Could use a sensor booster for sniping, but you were showing short range. I could just throw on a signal amplifier also. Plenty of low slots for that.

Stitch Kaneland wrote:
See the dps graph below. The ferox loaded with anti-matter, your brutix loaded with plutonium. You are ignoring the RANGE bonus on the hull and looking at only the numbers.

I am not ignoring the range bonus. With the range bonus the Ferox has approximately the same damage for the same range as the Brutix, and only when you don't factor in drones. This is two skill bonuses on the Ferox matching one skill bonus on the Brutix, except the Brutix goes even further and has bigger drones.

How can you not see it? You even graphed it!


I don't count drones, drones are erratic and aren't consistent in dps especially in fleets. We're speaking only about the guns and the bonuses that apply to those. Not to mention you can't count drones when drone control range isn't even applicable past 60km, which rail doctrines operate past.

If you put a signal amp on, then you lose range or dps, in either case you will see a drastic loss in applied dps. Which the ferox will still edge out from.

How can YOU not see it? In either scenario, the ferox out dps' the brutix in its intended engagement range. The ferox with antimatter out dps' your brutix with plutonium past 45km. With plutonium the ferox's engagment window is far superior than the brutix. The ONLY area where the brutix see's a gain in sniping is with spike, but like i mentioned before, the ferox doesn't need spike to shoot to 100km and suffer a tracking penalty.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#62 - 2016-01-28 22:05:43 UTC
The Ferox will hit for full damage further out than the Brutix can. Once the Brutix is shooting at a target in it's falloff range, then it will not be applying full damage. Especially if the target is moving.

Please, continue holding on to your perceptions though. You are entitled to those.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2016-01-28 22:24:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Ferox

https://zkillboard.com/ship/16227/top/

Brutix

https://zkillboard.com/ship/16229/top/

Thanks for the statistics. I'm blown away. I actually expected the Ferox to be used more in PVP since despite how underpowered it is, it is at least a PVP ship whereas the Brutix is not. But apparently the Brutix sees about twice as much PVP as the Ferox!


Stitch Kaneland wrote:
I don't count drones, drones are erratic and aren't consistent in dps especially in fleets. We're speaking only about the guns and the bonuses that apply to those.

So you're deliberately ignoring the advantages the Brutix has over the Ferox, and saying that once the Brutix's advantages are ignored, they are balanced?


Stitch Kaneland wrote:
How can YOU not see it? In either scenario, the ferox out dps' the brutix in its intended engagement range.

We've graphed this out several times now, both you and I. The Brutix and Ferox have a nearly identical range to damage ratio to one another in any range that both ships cover. The Ferox can only get over the Brutix in terms of raw damage projection at ranges that the Brutix can't reach at all. And once again, this is with two skill bonuses going into the Ferox's damage projection while only one is going into the Brutix's damage projection.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#64 - 2016-01-29 02:38:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Thanks for the statistics. I'm blown away. I actually expected the Ferox to be used more in PVP since despite how underpowered it is, it is at least a PVP ship whereas the Brutix is not. But apparently the Brutix sees about twice as much PVP as the Ferox!


I can't tell if you're being intentionally dense, or if you misread it. But the stats show the ferox with double the kills of the brutix in January. The ferox has consistently exceeded the brutix in kills every month. It also exceeds the brutix in kills/losses since October, when they were rebalanced. Stats show the Ferox is actually seeing more use than the brutix, meaning people are finding uses in it that you aren't. It is being used in PvP more than the brutix. On a larger scale than solo pvp.

The Ferox is superior to the brutix as a fleet ship. I've already proven this to you. It has more EHP, targeting range and projects damage better than the brutix can.

Here, this is a fight that just happened. 2 of the biggest alliances having a small skirmish with ferox's. If you actually looked at kill reports you would see they're seeing plenty of use in pvp.

Also, one thing you haven't thought of. You are proposing buffing a T1 BC so much, that it will outperform the vulture in almost every way but pure range/tank. Currently, the Ferox and Vulture share the same dps, but the vulture projects it even better, and gets a better tank. So at least it has that, giving the Ferox 10% dmg just obsoletes the vulture to an extent.


Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

So you're deliberately ignoring the advantages the Brutix has over the Ferox, and saying that once the Brutix's advantages are ignored, they are balanced?


Explain to me how drones are relevant when you're sniping at 70-80km? I don't care what EFT says, your drone dps isn't useful when you're sniping. We are comparing fleet setups, and i'm proving to you that the Ferox is better than the brutix when using rail guns. Something you don't seem to comprehend and insist the brutix is still better because the number in EFT is higher.

In a structure grind, sure, drones will see use. But when your bouncing pings or trying to land at range, you don't give a **** about your drones.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

The Ferox can only get over the Brutix in terms of raw damage projection at ranges that the Brutix can't reach at all.


Congrats, you have discovered that each ship has a separate role to perform. They are good in their respective roles, the Brutix being a brawler, and the Ferox being a sniper.

The Ferox is balanced and has a role that the brutix can't match. It is a balanced ship when its using rails in a fleet setting and exceeds the brutix in every way in that role. You are trying to homogenize the 2 ships to be the same, and in the process make a T1 BC do more dps than a command ship at 75% of the range and 1/4 of the cost.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
SurrenderMonkey
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2016-01-29 02:52:59 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


I can't tell if you're being intentionally dense, or if you misread it.


It's Reaver Glitterstim. Pretty sure he smokes a bunch of peyote and locks himself in a sweat lodge before posting.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

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Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#66 - 2016-01-29 03:33:42 UTC
Kind of have to agree with Reaver on those stats. I don't think you looked at them correctly.

However, I'd be willing to bet that those are armor Brutix losses, and not the shield fit that Reaver proposed earlier.

Seriously, you can't rely on killboard stats, because you have no idea how many of those are duplicates.

The only way to prove it would be to have a match between a rail-fit Brutix and Ferox, and see which one performs better. I predict it would almost be an even match.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2016-01-29 04:28:56 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Kind of have to agree with Reaver on those stats. I don't think you looked at them correctly.

However, I'd be willing to bet that those are armor Brutix losses, and not the shield fit that Reaver proposed earlier.

Seriously, you can't rely on killboard stats, because you have no idea how many of those are duplicates.

The only way to prove it would be to have a match between a rail-fit Brutix and Ferox, and see which one performs better. I predict it would almost be an even match.


I'm kind of wondering where you and him see the Brutix getting more use in PvP from the stats.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#68 - 2016-01-29 04:42:52 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6029995#

Having flown both the Brutix and Ferox a fair bit since the changes, I don't see any reason to disagree with a lot of the comments in that thread.

Ferox seems to me to be in a good place now.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2016-01-29 05:52:26 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
I can't tell if you're being intentionally dense, or if you misread it.

Frostys Virpio wrote:
I'm kind of wondering where you and him see the Brutix getting more use in PvP from the stats.

When I click on the links provided, I see this:

Ferox:
Destroyed: 239,573
Lost: 55,505

Brutix:
Destroyed: 441,355
Lost: 118,968

If I'm reading it wrong, let me know. Like I said, I expect the Ferox to be used more in PVP because it's more PVP oriented. That doesn't make it not underpowered.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#70 - 2016-01-29 06:15:29 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
I can't tell if you're being intentionally dense, or if you misread it.

Frostys Virpio wrote:
I'm kind of wondering where you and him see the Brutix getting more use in PvP from the stats.

When I click on the links provided, I see this:

Ferox:
Destroyed: 239,573
Lost: 55,505

Brutix:
Destroyed: 441,355
Lost: 118,968

If I'm reading it wrong, let me know. Like I said, I expect the Ferox to be used more in PVP because it's more PVP oriented. That doesn't make it not underpowered.


Stats for January :
Brutix 3,976
Ferox 6,345

Top of the pages seems to be lifetime which would include all the time before the BC were re-balanced.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2016-01-29 06:38:15 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Stats for January :
Brutix 3,976
Ferox 6,345

Top of the pages seems to be lifetime which would include all the time before the BC were re-balanced.

That makes a lot more sense, thanks.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#72 - 2016-01-29 14:09:11 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
I can't tell if you're being intentionally dense, or if you misread it.

Frostys Virpio wrote:
I'm kind of wondering where you and him see the Brutix getting more use in PvP from the stats.

When I click on the links provided, I see this:

Ferox:
Destroyed: 239,573
Lost: 55,505

Brutix:
Destroyed: 441,355
Lost: 118,968

If I'm reading it wrong, let me know. Like I said, I expect the Ferox to be used more in PVP because it's more PVP oriented. That doesn't make it not underpowered.


Stats for January :
Brutix 3,976
Ferox 6,345

Top of the pages seems to be lifetime which would include all the time before the BC were re-balanced.


Well then, I guess when someone post stats, they should say what they are looking at; such as, "Look at the top ships for January."
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#73 - 2016-01-29 16:57:58 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
I can't tell if you're being intentionally dense, or if you misread it.

Frostys Virpio wrote:
I'm kind of wondering where you and him see the Brutix getting more use in PvP from the stats.

When I click on the links provided, I see this:

Ferox:
Destroyed: 239,573
Lost: 55,505

Brutix:
Destroyed: 441,355
Lost: 118,968

If I'm reading it wrong, let me know. Like I said, I expect the Ferox to be used more in PVP because it's more PVP oriented. That doesn't make it not underpowered.


Stats for January :
Brutix 3,976
Ferox 6,345

Top of the pages seems to be lifetime which would include all the time before the BC were re-balanced.


Well then, I guess when someone post stats, they should say what they are looking at; such as, "Look at the top ships for January."


I linked the stat pages for the month (1/2016), and it broke down what alliances, systems, people etc had the most kills with each ship. It even listed total kills for the month. BC rebalance was done in October, why would we even consider lifetime stats as they do not apply to the current spec of each ship. Didnt think i needed to hold people's hands when comparing 2 ships with all the stats on each linked page..

Regardless though, ferox is fine as has been stated numerous times.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#74 - 2016-01-29 17:03:14 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


I linked the stat pages for the month (1/2016), and it broke down what alliances, systems, people etc had the most kills with each ship. It even listed total kills for the month. BC rebalance was done in October, why would we even consider lifetime stats as they do not apply to the current spec of each ship. Didnt think i needed to hold people's hands when comparing 2 ships with all the stats on each linked page..

Regardless though, ferox is fine as has been stated numerous times.


Never said the Ferox wasn't fine, but when you link a page and expect someone to read the exact thing you did; you are assuming, and when you assume, you make an a$$ out of you and me.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#75 - 2016-01-29 18:12:36 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You are ignoring the important fact that IN GAME, the ferox IS getting used

I'm not ignoring it. I live in nullsec and I'm not seeing it. Just because one alliance likes it doesn't mean it's getting used all over. I'd like to see some usage statistics on this one from CCP but until then it's your word against mine, and I really don't see any reason to believe that the Ferox is actually getting used very much for fleet PVP.


Ferox

https://zkillboard.com/ship/16227/top/

Brutix

https://zkillboard.com/ship/16229/top/

Looks like Pandemic Horde/Legion are using them quite frequently. As well as several other alliances. Compared to the brutix which barely breaks 100 kills per alliance.


Estella, i even pointed out some stats on the stat page that i linked relevant to the discussion. Nowhere did i mention all time, i was going through each "top" category and seeing the ferox outnumbered the brutix. I mentioned alliance use right there, not my fault your eyes wandered to the upper RH corner of the screen to all time and you glazed over the "top" categories right in front of you.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#76 - 2016-01-29 22:12:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrified
As someone who wants to fly a Ferox more often but does not because of it's performance, I like your suggestion.

Of course... it has been awhile since I've taken one out in combat... so maybe I need to once again.

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elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#77 - 2016-01-29 22:39:41 UTC
Petrified wrote:
As someone who wants to fly a Ferox more often but does not because of it's performance, I like your suggestion.

Of course... it has been awhile since I've taken one out in combat... so maybe I need to once again.


In that case, I would suggest trying her out on one of the test servers and get a feel there.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2016-01-30 01:11:26 UTC
Petrified wrote:
As someone who wants to fly a Ferox more often but does not because of it's performance, I like your suggestion.

Of course... it has been awhile since I've taken one out in combat... so maybe I need to once again.

It's not really underpowered, it's more like the Brutix and Harbinger are overpowered. However, the Brutix as a blaster ship is crippled by its poor speed, while the Ferox has a ton of excess powergrid it has no need for. The Harbinger is blatantly overpowered. Not stepping on command ship toes overpowered, not even close to command ship power, but for a T1 battlecruiser it flies and hits like a Legion.


Now if only it tanked like a Legion...

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#79 - 2016-01-30 12:06:11 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Petrified wrote:
As someone who wants to fly a Ferox more often but does not because of it's performance, I like your suggestion.

Of course... it has been awhile since I've taken one out in combat... so maybe I need to once again.

It's not really underpowered, it's more like the Brutix and Harbinger are overpowered. However, the Brutix as a blaster ship is crippled by its poor speed, while the Ferox has a ton of excess powergrid it has no need for. The Harbinger is blatantly overpowered. Not stepping on command ship toes overpowered, not even close to command ship power, but for a T1 battlecruiser it flies and hits like a Legion.


Now if only it tanked like a Legion...


She does? Hmm, need to investigate the Harbinger.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2016-01-30 14:51:21 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
She does? Hmm, need to investigate the Harbinger.

I may be exaggerating slightly but yes, she does, and yes you need to investigate.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."