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A few issues have to be addressed in relation to SP Trading

First post
Author
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#81 - 2016-01-27 16:33:43 UTC
Officer Pressly wrote:
Kuetlzelcoatl wrote:
One nice aspect is the ability to repect your characters after major game changes.

I found about 100 mil SP I could free up on a few characters of mine that I could transfer to a couple new alts.

All that SP comes from old gameplay I don't do anymore or skills I probably won't need due to the recent announced Cap changes. No need for level V remote rep skills on a ship that isn't bonused for it anymore. Not looking to go the Cap Logi route.



They dont want to see the benefits, they are just complaining about something they think they dont like. Nothing new tbh. I think this is one of the better changes in a long time. Its a good isk sink. It doesnt add sp. And it gives options you didnt have before, unless you bougth another character. This lets you keep the uniqeness of Your character, and lets you fix stuff, when changes come.


It's not an ISK sink. The only sinked ISK from this will be the usual sales tax on the market and/or contract creation cost which mean no new sink at all.
Avvy
Doomheim
#82 - 2016-01-27 16:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


It's a liability just like gift cards are. You already have the money but still owe something to someone.




Not sure that is the same.


Gift card is like an IOU it still has a real currency value.

PLEX in-game doesn't have a real currency value. You are buying the PLEX which is an in-game object.


It's an IOU for game time or other services offered just like a gift card can be used for a DVD, Kleenex boxes or gummie bears. It's an "e-gift card".



PLEX is an object that can access a few services, but it doesn't make it something that will make it a liability on the balance sheet.

Shop gift cards are an IOU and have a monetary value which will effect a balance sheet. But I just don't see that with PLEX.


I say with PLEX, PLEX isn't an IOU, it's an object that can be used in several ways. When buying PLEX that is what you are buying, the PLEX. Because other than the initial payment to buy the PLEX it's only dealing in virtual currency. PLEX can move between multiple players before it is used where it is removed from the game.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#83 - 2016-01-27 17:23:17 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


It's a liability just like gift cards are. You already have the money but still owe something to someone.




Not sure that is the same.


Gift card is like an IOU it still has a real currency value.

PLEX in-game doesn't have a real currency value. You are buying the PLEX which is an in-game object.


It's an IOU for game time or other services offered just like a gift card can be used for a DVD, Kleenex boxes or gummie bears. It's an "e-gift card".



PLEX is an object that can access a few services, but it doesn't make it something that will make it a liability on the balance sheet.

Shop gift cards are an IOU and have a monetary value which will effect a balance sheet. But I just don't see that with PLEX.


I say with PLEX, PLEX isn't an IOU, it's an object that can be used in several ways. When buying PLEX that is what you are buying, the PLEX. Because other than the initial payment to buy the PLEX it's only dealing in virtual currency. PLEX can move between multiple players before it is used where it is removed from the game.


The gift card does not deal with any real currency once it's purchased either.
Avvy
Doomheim
#84 - 2016-01-27 17:29:57 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


The gift card does not deal with any real currency once it's purchased either.




The gift card still has a monetary value, a debt the company/group is obligated to fulfil.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#85 - 2016-01-27 17:50:11 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


The gift card does not deal with any real currency once it's purchased either.




The gift card still has a monetary value, a debt the company/group is obligated to fulfil.


So is the PLEX. You don't see it as monetary value but the game time has a monetary value and so does the aurums, dual training tokens or any other stuff you can use a PLEX for.
Avvy
Doomheim
#86 - 2016-01-27 18:26:51 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


The gift card does not deal with any real currency once it's purchased either.




The gift card still has a monetary value, a debt the company/group is obligated to fulfil.


So is the PLEX. You don't see it as monetary value but the game time has a monetary value and so does the aurums, dual training tokens or any other stuff you can use a PLEX for.



Game time - can cost anything CCP sees fit either real currency or isk (PLEX). Although they have to try and stay competitive as well as profitable.

Aurum - You can buy it with real currency, but can you sell it for real currency? No.


CCP put a sales price on PLEX when they sell them (whatever they feel is the right price). But when you redeem the PLEX into the game their value is isk and what that value is depends on the in-game market.

You can make comparisons between isk and real currency and some people do. But that doesn't change the fact that they're still only worth isk.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#87 - 2016-01-27 18:47:54 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


If they become the "owner" of the liability, it kind of stop mattering. It's like they own themselves 30 days of game time. I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong about "forgetting" that you owe yourself some "value".


Technically, CCP owns all PLEX in the game...if they thus own the liability as you and others are implying why they are listed on CCP's balance sheet is then a bit of a mystery suggesting that this is not the full story.

In any event, nothing that you or others have written suggest that CCP cannot use these PLEX (paid for by RL money by other people) for their own purposes in game, such as for market interventions, loot drops, etc.

So the notion that PLEX are "magically" appearing in game and not via a RL cash transaction and thus are somehow different than the SP extractor/injectors purchased via AUR has not been established.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#88 - 2016-01-27 18:50:11 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


It's a liability just like gift cards are. You already have the money but still owe something to someone.




Not sure that is the same.


Gift card is like an IOU it still has a real currency value.

PLEX in-game doesn't have a real currency value. You are buying the PLEX which is an in-game object.


It is very much the same. Somebody gave CCP money in exchange for a promise game time. CCP owes game time to whomever redeems that promise irrespective of it being the original buyer or somebody he sold it to for ISK.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Avvy
Doomheim
#89 - 2016-01-27 19:04:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Teckos Pech wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


It's a liability just like gift cards are. You already have the money but still owe something to someone.




Not sure that is the same.


Gift card is like an IOU it still has a real currency value.

PLEX in-game doesn't have a real currency value. You are buying the PLEX which is an in-game object.


It is very much the same. Somebody gave CCP money in exchange for a promise game time. CCP owes game time to whomever redeems that promise irrespective of it being the original buyer or somebody he sold it to for ISK.


It's not just game time that PLEX can be used for.

They haven't promised anything, they sell you an in-game object that can be used in several ways. It's up to you what you do with them. You can cart them around in a badger if you like.


Edit:

Most people won't be buying PLEX from CCP for game time as it's cheaper to subscribe.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#90 - 2016-01-27 19:29:50 UTC
In any event…given we are arguing over a technicality relating to PLEX, I think it is safe to say the OP’s original concerns are not really valid.

As for devaluing SP, if anything this change is more likely to work in the opposite direction. A very wealthy player who wants to get to the end of a skill he did not previously have he may very well “sink” a lot of SP out of the game making the remaining SP in the game more valuable not less.

As for limits and regulation of a new market….having worked in an industry that is very, very heavily regulated my initial reaction is, “NO!” Either come up with a compelling case as to why because such a regulation could set up the very thing I mentioned earlier, that it ends up inadvertently benefitting one group of players over all the rest and destabilizing the game.

Many of the fears expressed by people are almost child-like. People having hysterics over the super-rich parading around their 300 million SP characters and….???? We have no idea how liquid the SP market will be. We can look at the character bazaar, but that information is not easily quantified and is likely only a subset of characters being bought and sold. Other markets that are similar, such as the AUR token market in Jita is not very liquid at all.

Further, while there might be some players who have characters they’ll be willing to drain SP from, to some extent it will depend on the details. Suppose you have mining V on your PvP character and want to get rid of it…well you won’t be able to fill up a SP extractor/injector with that. It is just 256,000 SP. Can you still use the extractor or do you need to find another 244,000 SP you need to drain? Is there another 244,000 SP on that character to drain? I don’t plan on draining many currently trained skills on my characters, even one’s that after say changes to carriers might be far, far less useful or even useless, at least not right away. Because if skill for using capital remote reppers goes away entirely…will CCP reimburse players with free SP….or not and leaving our only choice SP extractors? And to continue extracting SP from most if not all of my current characters you’d have to pay me ALOT of ISK—i.e. I am not going to a seller, and given my main and alt SP levels probably not much of a buyer either, so I won’t be helping to make that market liquid.

If the market is illiquid then the fears of 300 million SP characters strutting around in droves is just not going to happen. Even if the market is fairly liquid given one will have to sink far more SP out of the game than they are injecting into their character it is unlikely to be a sustainable or wide spread practice. So not only do we know to what extent there will be a sudden surge 300 million SP characters, the next question is…what is the effect on the game. A 300 million SP character is not going to be better than 5 50 million SP characters for PvP. In such a contest my money will almost always be on the 5 players with their 50 million SP characters.

And just to be clear, I am not a fan of this proposal. It could turn out to be great. New players can buy SP at a much lower out of pocket cost to get to an SP level that really opens up the game. Older players who sell the SP get more ISK and more people to interact with in the game, and it is all daisies, sunshine and rainbows….or it could work out in an unexpectedly bad way as I wrote here. Making big changes to a complex system can often have serious unintended consequences.

Apologies for the wall of text.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#91 - 2016-01-27 19:33:25 UTC
Avvy wrote:


It's not just game time that PLEX can be used for.


Okay, let me amend my previous statement. CCP owes game time or a game service to whomever redeems that promise irrespective of it being the original buyer or to whomever the original buyer sold it to.

Quote:
They haven't promised anything, they sell you an in-game object that can be used in several ways. It's up to you what you do with them. You can cart them around in a badger if you like.


They most certainly have made a promise.

Quote:
Edit:

Most people won't be buying PLEX from CCP for game time as it's cheaper to subscribe.


So, that does not negate the promise.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#92 - 2016-01-27 19:47:45 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


It's a liability just like gift cards are. You already have the money but still owe something to someone.




Not sure that is the same.


Gift card is like an IOU it still has a real currency value.

PLEX in-game doesn't have a real currency value. You are buying the PLEX which is an in-game object.


It is very much the same. Somebody gave CCP money in exchange for a promise game time. CCP owes game time to whomever redeems that promise irrespective of it being the original buyer or somebody he sold it to for ISK.


It's not just game time that PLEX can be used for.

They haven't promised anything, they sell you an in-game object that can be used in several ways. It's up to you what you do with them. You can cart them around in a badger if you like.


Edit:

Most people won't be buying PLEX from CCP for game time as it's cheaper to subscribe.


You can be stupid with gift cards like that too. If you have a walmart gift card and your house burn down, walmart won't accept your claim that you had a gift card in your burning house and so won't give you stuff for it's value. The exact same that happen if you cart your PLEX in a badger and get blown up.
ISD Fractal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#93 - 2016-01-27 19:50:02 UTC
Quote:
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As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.


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ISD Fractal

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

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