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A few issues have to be addressed in relation to SP Trading

First post
Author
Olivia Moon
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-01-23 15:04:05 UTC
Haven't been with EVE for almost a year and just recently resubbed knowing that SP trading will be implemented soon.
And also I've read something about pay to win.
Let's go straight into that.

Issues:
1) paying real money to get SP

SP has been one the thing makes EVE so unique compared to others.
I enjoy that passive feelings that my character is building even when I was offline or not doing anything.
Of course I am like the others, hate waiting, for right now I'm training T2 turret, it takes almost a month.
To buy real-time-generated SP with money, it's like instant cash shop thing in p2w MMOs.
I'm not completely in accord with those saying SP trading will be p2w, but it feels like that.
It feels like SP trading is degrading the unique SP system by first, making SP devalued in that more and more SP accumulated in some characters will be cash-based, and by second, making something not-to-be-tradable commercialised.

2) no caps/limits/regulatory measures being implemented along with the SP trading

As far as I know, people can buy SP injectors as many as they want.
That decreasing SP when injected according to their own total SP is not helping imo, as they can still inject unlimitedly.
Also, people are often saying that you can buy characters with high SP which is pretty equivalent to SP trading.
But people playing with one account is capped by 3 character slots.
Unless they're willing to pay for more accounts, they would not be unlimitedly "buying SP".
How about adding some kind of "cool down" like jump fatigue to prevent cash-based abuse?

Is it too late to add changes to the finalised SP trading features:(?
or do I still miss something important?
Thanks for any comments.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#2 - 2016-01-23 15:19:48 UTC
Can I have your SP?

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

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Dibz
Doomheim
#3 - 2016-01-23 16:12:13 UTC
What interests me is the level of supply and demand once the initial splurge of SP has been bought and redistributed. One character will generate 500k SP in just under 8 days at max efficiency. Question is how many SP farming characters will there be?
Olivia Moon
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2016-01-23 17:01:41 UTC
Dibz wrote:
What interests me is the level of supply and demand once the initial splurge of SP has been bought and redistributed. One character will generate 500k SP in just under 8 days at max efficiency. Question is how many SP farming characters will there be?


I'm not worrying about the market as the presumption is that SP being a commodity which impacting the PLEX's price.

What I'm trying to express is that people can simply buy SP and bring p2w ideas into EVE.
Not truly p2w but partially still kills the uniqueness.

One measure is to regulate the number of injection per month let say.
But seems like CCP isn't gonna implement any injection/extraction fatigue at all...
Dibz
Doomheim
#5 - 2016-01-23 17:20:33 UTC
I'd be cool with them putting a limit on it, say 20 injections per month. I doubt CCP would want to limit the income from extractors though.
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2016-01-23 17:56:04 UTC
You are in the wrong section, there's a section to comment on the dev post.
You have very poor knowledge about the subject, i suggest to re-read it a few times and the other threads.
You are wrong on most of what you 'understood'.

Been around since the beginning.

Kiandoshia
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2016-01-23 19:22:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiandoshia
When can we pay to change our names and whipe our corp history and just about everything we have ever done and start over literally where we left off in terms of character development?

Oh wait..

No seriously, once this is in place, can we just get a PLEX for name change feature to change our character's names without all the surrounding hassle?
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#8 - 2016-01-23 19:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
Well, since we are always telling people that player skill is always or nearly always more important than character skill, then I don't see how skill points suddenly turns the game into pay to win. Go buy a 100m sp character. Go buy 100m sp. You corpse will look just as pretty.

What I want to see is character selling eliminated. I hate finding out my friend isn't my friend anymore, but some dude I don't even know. Now my friend is some other character.

So I like skill selling, especially if character selling is nixed entirely.

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Cixi
#9 - 2016-01-23 19:40:43 UTC
Dibz wrote:
What interests me is the level of supply and demand once the initial splurge of SP has been bought and redistributed. One character will generate 500k SP in just under 8 days at max efficiency. Question is how many SP farming characters will there be?


SP farming will not be a good thing to do at least at the beginning, because people will siphon SP from their old unused cap/industry/research toons
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-01-23 20:06:33 UTC
I think the current proposal is pretty solid. Especially the lower return at higher levels will mean that investing trillions of ISK into SP is essentially going to destroy vast amounts of SP in the process, which will balance out the market and the ISK value of an injector. Meanwhile the 5m SP minimum makes sure that you can't just create throwaway characters to leech SP from.

Farming is not going to be a thing because of those reasons.

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Marsha Mallow
#11 - 2016-01-23 20:44:47 UTC
Olivia Moon wrote:
To buy real-time-generated SP with money, it's like instant cash shop thing in p2w MMOs.

The trading system will be based upon existing players selling their SP rather than CCP selling skillpoints direct. It's slightly different to a cash shop and should produce some interesting dynamics. If the Injectors are priced appropriately and make CCP enough revenue, in addition to Skins and other vanity based microtransactions, they may be able to make the game FTP or significantly alter the subscription model going forward.

Olivia Moon wrote:
2) no caps/limits/regulatory measures being implemented along with the SP trading

There are several limiting measures that are part of the design.
1) The amount of raw SP converted will be dictated by existing players - bear in mind some may consolidate their own alts before selling - so the supply side is not artificially controlled by CCP and neither is the demand.
2) The number of Skill Injectors available. These are being sold by CCP for Aurum, and the price they set will create a baseline, but how much they sell for ingame will be dictated by player behaviour. If people are considering using real $ to acquire ingame ISK they'll have a choice between Plex and Aurum depending upon which gives the best ISK to $ reward, and you can convert Plex into Aurum.
3) The amount of SP people can inject will also depend upon how much ISK or $ they are willing to spend/have available. There will be some who are willing and can afford to spend $20k or several hundred billion for very high SP characters. That minority already exist - you see them splattered across lowsec gates in hilarious ALOD reports in their pimpmobiles.

Olivia Moon wrote:
Is it too late to add changes to the finalised SP trading features:(?
or do I still miss something important?
Thanks for any comments.

It's not too late, although you might be better off posting here. It's a new system so chances are there will be tweaks after it's released based upon feedback. If the issues you describe do become significant problems limits might be implemented, so you should report your concerns. You're not the only person flagging this btw.

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Tyburn Stannis
Xenon Salvage Inc.
#12 - 2016-01-24 00:40:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyburn Stannis
Quote:
Issues:
1) paying real money to get SP



There is already a "pay2win" option, if you believe SP levels reflect game advantage.*

You can buy an entire character that you haven't spent a single day working on yourself, simply by purchasing PLEX for real life cash from CCP and selling it on the in game market until you have the ISK you need to buy a pilot from the fully legal character bazaar with however many SP already trained for you in pretty much whatever skills you want.

*"win" is a rather subjective term.

.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#13 - 2016-01-24 00:54:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Once the initial spoke from people selling their stored up, unused SP is done, you'll see the price reflect much more accurately. There is going to be a very strong bottleneck in terms of players willing to continue sucking their characters of SP and that will be limited by how much SP can actually be generated. The price will also be affected by the number of people trying to inject into characters above the 5mil mark. It will devalue the overall price slightly.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#14 - 2016-01-24 01:09:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Olivia Moon wrote:
Issues:
1) paying real money to get SP

SP has been one the thing makes EVE so unique compared to others.
I enjoy that passive feelings that my character is building even when I was offline or not doing anything.
Of course I am like the others, hate waiting, for right now I'm training T2 turret, it takes almost a month.
To buy real-time-generated SP with money, it's like instant cash shop thing in p2w MMOs.
I'm not completely in accord with those saying SP trading will be p2w, but it feels like that.
It feels like SP trading is degrading the unique SP system by first, making SP devalued in that more and more SP accumulated in some characters will be cash-based, and by second, making something not-to-be-tradable commercialised.
If you consider your amount of SP to be winning, then sure. I'm of the opinion that the skills you as a person have learnt while playing Eve are far more valuable than the skills your character has trained. 100 Million SP in the hands of somebody with no idea how to utilise it properly is always going to end badly.

Quote:
2) no caps/limits/regulatory measures being implemented along with the SP trading
I'm still on the fence about SP trading; however the diminishing returns, the fact that the SP has to come from other players, and that the skill injector price point will be set by players because CCP aren't seeding them directly into the market suggests that the mechanic will be self regulatory.

Quote:
As far as I know, people can buy SP injectors as many as they want.
That decreasing SP when injected according to their own total SP is not helping imo, as they can still inject unlimitedly.
Also, people are often saying that you can buy characters with high SP which is pretty equivalent to SP trading.
But people playing with one account is capped by 3 character slots.
Unless they're willing to pay for more accounts, they would not be unlimitedly "buying SP".
How about adding some kind of "cool down" like jump fatigue to prevent cash-based abuse?

Is it too late to add changes to the finalised SP trading features:(?
or do I still miss something important?
Thanks for any comments.

There is a proper place for your feedback, general discussion is not it.

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Wanda Fayne
#15 - 2016-01-24 23:19:51 UTC
I'd pay to see behind that door in the station...

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  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Thorian Baalnorn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2016-01-25 01:30:38 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
.... they may be able to make the game FTP or significantly alter the subscription model going forward.

.


I hope not F2P would ruin this game like it has so many other MMOs. Sub price needs to stay at $15 a month.

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Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2016-01-25 04:51:12 UTC
i just realize that part of me is well at least since it's just part no matter which ones left or right part of me but one part of me is one hand up for this change.

i'm not going to be making perfect alts with focused training que. what i'm going to do is create new pilots with cool name something like xxXimayobigbootymommaXXx with fancy DoB 02.02.2016 02:02:02 and coming with spool of unlocated SP's (2.5m; 5.0m; 7.5m; etc.) so the buyer will decide himself what he is going to do with that alt.

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Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#18 - 2016-01-25 05:49:32 UTC
I think you're somewhat radically overestimating the number of injectors that will actually hit the market.

I'm of the belief that those players with large pools of 'surplus' SP will probably use that SP (or the bulk of it anyways) for themselves, rather than sell on the market. Lets face it, if you have several high SP characters, you have other ways of generating ISK that doesn't involve selling SP.

It would take a major change in EVE mechanics to 'free up' vast amounts of redundant SP that might then make it to market. Getting rid of Off Grid Boosting would be such a change and it will be interesting to see what happens. Is it more profitable to sell off that SP as injectors or is it more profitable to sell off the whole character on the Bazaar?

These are all unknown quantities at the moment.

In any case, I don't expect to see them on the market for any less than around a billion ISK a pop. Some of these fanciful pieces of mathemagics where people project an ISK500m price point are, I believe, somewhat deluded.

Looking at my own meager stable of low SP alts, I can see a couple of million SP I can 'spare'. Said SP will be used by myself, not sold.

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2016-01-25 06:36:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Olivia Moon wrote:
Dibz wrote:
What interests me is the level of supply and demand once the initial splurge of SP has been bought and redistributed. One character will generate 500k SP in just under 8 days at max efficiency. Question is how many SP farming characters will there be?


I'm not worrying about the market as the presumption is that SP being a commodity which impacting the PLEX's price.

What I'm trying to express is that people can simply buy SP and bring p2w ideas into EVE.
Not truly p2w but partially still kills the uniqueness.

One measure is to regulate the number of injection per month let say.
But seems like CCP isn't gonna implement any injection/extraction fatigue at all...


You can't just buy SP with the up coming change. You must have a supplier, no supplier no SP to buy.

Now generally speaking the market brings together suppliers and buyers. So the only real question is...how liquid will the market be?

Olivia Moon wrote:
2) no caps/limits/regulatory measures being implemented along with the SP trading

As far as I know, people can buy SP injectors as many as they want.
That decreasing SP when injected according to their own total SP is not helping imo, as they can still inject unlimitedly.


Oh dear. There is nothing stopping your from buying as many televisions as you want either. But rarely do you see a person who can buy and unlimited amount of televisions. The notion of an income constraint is indeed a Thing™ both inside and outside the game. The only person who can inject an unlimited amount of SP will be someone with an unlimited amount of ISK.


Olivia Moon wrote:
Also, people are often saying that you can buy characters with high SP which is pretty equivalent to SP trading.


No, it is SP trading with less choice (i.e. you cannot choose the gender, race, name, etc.).

Olivia Moon wrote:
But people playing with one account is capped by 3 character slots.
Unless they're willing to pay for more accounts, they would not be unlimitedly "buying SP".


Nothing is stopping them from selling an existing character and then buying a new one with even more SP.

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Xerrasss
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2016-01-25 09:37:03 UTC
But what is with the old titan pilots and so on the suppercap pilots the chars wich are curently training indu skills because they just dont have any skills left worth skilling ! and isk farming on Titan/Supper- chars ... (why schoud i train my titan into a ship he will never fly so selling sp is a good option for them ! and just let me guess we are talking here over bilions of sp points it will take ages to drain the market to an amount where a skillpoint is worth more than an isk just because there is sooooooo much SP that will be draind from the Characters!

and another Question will the Extractr cost Aurum ?

and for me it is also p2w because all of us can remember when we first had a ship maxed out and we all knwo the fdifference from sitting in a hull and properly flying a hull is a big difference !
Ofcourse player skills is a big thing in eve but charskils aswell.

pls tell me what you tink fellow Capsuliers!

Xerrasss

ps.: hopfully everybody understand this is not a rage post! (and hopefully my english is not to bad ^^)
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