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A few issues have to be addressed in relation to SP Trading

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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2016-01-26 22:21:20 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:


The only way AUR is introduced into the game is through a real-world money transaction. ISK appears in the game through in-game activities done with active game-time. Ignore the term "AUR" - what I'm concerned about is the trade of an in-game item between two players (other than game-time which has it's own real-world cost to acquire) involving a real-world cost.


So you are concerned about PLEX trades since they are trade of in game items that can only be created by the involvement of real-world cost.


No, I specifically excluded PLEX in the parentheses of my statement you quoted. PLEX is simply a placeholder for game-time. I'm not concerned about trades involving game-time.

Scenario #1: I acquire game-time from CCP, which involves a real-world currency cost. I can then trade that game-time (in the form of a PLEX, for example) to another player for no additional real-world cost. It's up to me and the other play to come to an agreement on the details of the trade. Great!

Scenario #2: I acquire SP via training, which involves a real-world currency cost that CCP gets. I can then take the in-game action of trading that SP (in the form of a Skill Injector) only by paying CCP an additional real-world cost. That makes me uncomfortable.

Scenario #3: I acquire an in-game object that is a vanity item (eg, a SKIN) from CCP, which involves a real-world currency cost. Nothing further that I am able to do with that object requires an additional real-world cost. Great again!

Scenario #4: I acquire an in-game object that can affect the abilities of a character (eg, a Skill Extractor) from CCP, which involves a real-world currency cost. This too makes me uncomfortable.

Anyway, thank you for the feedback to all who have replied. Instead of continuing to try to clarify my concerns which I feel I'm doing a bad job of, since I'm not trying to convince anybody to agree with my view I will instead take away from this that most people who have objections to SP trading is because they are concerned about the results of the trades, rather than any real-world cost associated with it, and I will cease posting in this thread. o/
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#62 - 2016-01-26 22:25:47 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:


The only way AUR is introduced into the game is through a real-world money transaction.


This also true with PLEX.


Plex was a drop during frostline. Possibly other events.


And CCP does not have a stock of PLEX other people have paid for? There are no PLEX on banned accounts? History suggests you could be quite wrong.

Quote:
Finally, the rate of price increase broke whatever threshold DrEyjoG considers to be "too fast" and he stepped in, carefully injecting PLEX from banned accounts into the market, and stabilizing the price.


And prior to Frostline PLEX rarely entered the game, if ever, except by having somebody pay RL money for them.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Avvy
Doomheim
#63 - 2016-01-26 22:51:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Olivia Moon wrote:

I'm not completely in accord with those saying SP trading will be p2w, but it feels like that.
It feels like SP trading is degrading the unique SP system by first, making SP devalued in that more and more SP accumulated in some characters will be cash-based, and by second, making something not-to-be-tradable commercialised.


Don't see that as an issue, you could already buy a character, so the degrading you are talking about happened years ago.


Edit:

You could argue that it will be even more degraded than before because you will be able to correct past training mistakes. But I don't really think that matters as once it had degraded from its pure state, who really cares.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2016-01-26 22:53:52 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:


Anyway, thank you for the feedback to all who have replied. Instead of continuing to try to clarify my concerns which I feel I'm doing a bad job of, since I'm not trying to convince anybody to agree with my view I will instead take away from this that most people who have objections to SP trading is because they are concerned about the results of the trades, rather than any real-world cost associated with it, and I will cease posting in this thread. o/


Great because you haven't clarified Jack ****.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Avvy
Doomheim
#65 - 2016-01-26 23:29:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Teckos Pech wrote:

And CCP does not have a stock of PLEX other people have paid for? There are no PLEX on banned accounts?



I don't see why they would have a stockpile of PLEX other people have paid for.

Once PLEX enters the game it's just another object in-game.

PLEX can be created when required.

If an account is banned, then PLEX on the account can be deleted with the account otherwise left on the account if its just been frozen.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#66 - 2016-01-26 23:38:57 UTC
Varro Octavius wrote:
This change needs to happen due to the safety net EVE online has created for veteran EVE online players by not allowing newer players to catch up with existing players using their own accounts. Granted these newer players will need to learn actually game skills but that is a learning curve that cannot be bought with cash, while that remains anything is technically fair.

This system is not pay 2 win, it's pay for convenience, and with the diminishing returns at higher skill points it's a lot harder to abuse unless you have trillions of isk.

All the games I've played where the time-scale to reach the top 1% of stats is now longer than the actually worth of playing the game have slowly but surely diminished. I'll still log on and say hello once in a while but if that 1% becomes out of reach due to work/RL stuff then interest is lost. EVE needs this system to give newer players the incentive to go all the way in EVE and keep the game alive.



this is an illusion, there is no safety net made by skills. none. no advantage in any real way made by skills, none. i can be killed by a noob or a vet with an equal %. So yea sorry but skill points do not matter in eve, never have never will.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#67 - 2016-01-27 00:08:17 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Varro Octavius wrote:
This change needs to happen due to the safety net EVE online has created for veteran EVE online players by not allowing newer players to catch up with existing players using their own accounts. Granted these newer players will need to learn actually game skills but that is a learning curve that cannot be bought with cash, while that remains anything is technically fair.

This system is not pay 2 win, it's pay for convenience, and with the diminishing returns at higher skill points it's a lot harder to abuse unless you have trillions of isk.

All the games I've played where the time-scale to reach the top 1% of stats is now longer than the actually worth of playing the game have slowly but surely diminished. I'll still log on and say hello once in a while but if that 1% becomes out of reach due to work/RL stuff then interest is lost. EVE needs this system to give newer players the incentive to go all the way in EVE and keep the game alive.



this is an illusion, there is no safety net made by skills. none. no advantage in any real way made by skills, none. i can be killed by a noob or a vet with an equal %. So yea sorry but skill points do not matter in eve, never have never will.



If player with level 4 drone skill meets a player with level 5 drone skill in the same exact ship, the level 5 player will win.

However, I have my personal doubts that any player would willfully leave drones at level 4.

Anyways... This is intended to let new players buy their way into high level characters. Technically they could already do this with the character bazaar, but now they can create new characters with clean corp history and then ruin these characters ganking and awoxing and then recycle the characters again when done..

Since this will involve a lot of awoxing in established null sec alliances, I'm all for it.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2016-01-27 00:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

And CCP does not have a stock of PLEX other people have paid for? There are no PLEX on banned accounts?



I don't see why they would have a stockpile of PLEX other people have paid for.

Once PLEX enters the game it's just another object in-game.

PLEX can be created when required.

If an account is banned, then PLEX on the account can be deleted with the account otherwise left on the account if its just been frozen.


1. If it is in the game, it is CCP's.
2. These are banned accounts--i.e. accounts that CCP already owns and that they have seized and disabled the customer's access.
3. DrEyjog did use some of the PLEX on banned accounts during a market intervention in the past.

So the notion that CCP could use some of those PLEX as an item for a loot drop is quite possible and it removes a liability from their balance sheet.

To be clear a PLEX represents a liability on CCP's balance sheet and it can only be removed when it is used for game time. I don't think they can just be deleted from a banned account.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#69 - 2016-01-27 00:53:16 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:



If player with level 4 drone skill meets a player with level 5 drone skill in the same exact ship, the level 5 player will win.


Well, there are some possible mitigating factors here. If one guy turns on his MWD and the other does not….

Quote:
However, I have my personal doubts that any player would willfully leave drones at level 4.


Specialization skills will likely sit at 4 for awhile.

Quote:
Anyways... This is intended to let new players buy their way into high level characters. Technically they could already do this with the character bazaar, but now they can create new characters with clean corp history and then ruin these characters ganking and awoxing and then recycle the characters again when done..


Only at a cost. You cannot drain SP below 5 million. Further, to go over 5 million you’ll incur decreasing marginal returns. So if you start out with 50 million, your next character will be down to 37 million SP. The next one will be down to 30.6 million and the next will be around 25.48 million.

That is a pretty heavy price to pay, IMO. I’d estimate the costs to be 12.3-59 billion in lost SP depending on how you measure the price of SP.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Avvy
Doomheim
#70 - 2016-01-27 00:57:28 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

And CCP does not have a stock of PLEX other people have paid for? There are no PLEX on banned accounts?



I don't see why they would have a stockpile of PLEX other people have paid for.

Once PLEX enters the game it's just another object in-game.

PLEX can be created when required.

If an account is banned, then PLEX on the account can be deleted with the account otherwise left on the account if its just been frozen.


1. If it is in the game, it is CCP's.
2. These are banned accounts--i.e. accounts that CCP already owns and that they have seized and disabled the customer's access.
3. DrEyjog did use some of the PLEX on banned accounts during a market intervention in the past.

So the notion that CCP could use some of those PLEX as an item for a loot drop is quite possible and it removes a liability from their balance sheet.

To be clear a PLEX represents a liability on CCP's balance sheet and it can only be removed when it is used for game time. I don't think they can just be deleted from a banned account.



PLEX is a game object, so I don't see why it can't be deleted.

When you buy PLEX from CCP you are buying an object that when you redeem it, it enters the game. Once it's in-game you can do what you want with it.

CCP are effectively getting subs+ upfront when someone buys PLEX from them, but a percentage of those may never get used as they may just sit on inactive accounts. Others will get converted into AURUM. It can be a liability if they've not invested what they received in advance properly.

Still don't see why they would need to use banned account PLEX. As they can just create new ones, even for rat drops as long as they're rare. I suspect if they did what you said it was more a PR exercise, showing they ban accounts and giving some of the spoils back to the community.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#71 - 2016-01-27 05:35:43 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

And CCP does not have a stock of PLEX other people have paid for? There are no PLEX on banned accounts?



I don't see why they would have a stockpile of PLEX other people have paid for.

Once PLEX enters the game it's just another object in-game.

PLEX can be created when required.

If an account is banned, then PLEX on the account can be deleted with the account otherwise left on the account if its just been frozen.


1. If it is in the game, it is CCP's.
2. These are banned accounts--i.e. accounts that CCP already owns and that they have seized and disabled the customer's access.
3. DrEyjog did use some of the PLEX on banned accounts during a market intervention in the past.

So the notion that CCP could use some of those PLEX as an item for a loot drop is quite possible and it removes a liability from their balance sheet.

To be clear a PLEX represents a liability on CCP's balance sheet and it can only be removed when it is used for game time. I don't think they can just be deleted from a banned account.



PLEX is a game object, so I don't see why it can't be deleted.

When you buy PLEX from CCP you are buying an object that when you redeem it, it enters the game. Once it's in-game you can do what you want with it.

CCP are effectively getting subs+ upfront when someone buys PLEX from them, but a percentage of those may never get used as they may just sit on inactive accounts. Others will get converted into AURUM. It can be a liability if they've not invested what they received in advance properly.

Still don't see why they would need to use banned account PLEX. As they can just create new ones, even for rat drops as long as they're rare. I suspect if they did what you said it was more a PR exercise, showing they ban accounts and giving some of the spoils back to the community.


PLEX represent a liability on CCP's balance sheet...just deleting them is like just deleting liabilities...pretty sure that is going to be a big no-no.

If an account is banned, then any PLEX on that account will not be used for game time, character transfers, AUR, destroyed, etc....in perpetuity. Since reducing one's liabilities is a good thing, having PLEX "stranded" in a banned account is a Bad Thing™. Finding a legitimate use for them that also removes the liability is a Good Thing™.

Think of it this way...using PLEX on a banned account kills 2 birds with one stone, you get to have an awesome loot drop...and you reduce your liabilities at the same time. Win-win. Win for the guy getting the loot drop. Win for CCP.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Kuetlzelcoatl
#72 - 2016-01-27 05:51:21 UTC
One nice aspect is the ability to repect your characters after major game changes.

I found about 100 mil SP I could free up on a few characters of mine that I could transfer to a couple new alts.

All that SP comes from old gameplay I don't do anymore or skills I probably won't need due to the recent announced Cap changes. No need for level V remote rep skills on a ship that isn't bonused for it anymore. Not looking to go the Cap Logi route.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#73 - 2016-01-27 06:58:08 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
To be clear a PLEX represents a liability on CCP's balance sheet and it can only be removed when it is used for game time. I don't think they can just be deleted from a banned account.


Absolutely CCP can just delete PLEX from a banned account. 100%. That "I have read and agree to the Service Terms and Conditions" thing you HAD to click on at some point during account creation. Remember that? That's what gives CCP the legal authority to delete assets from their game as they see fit.

Banning an account for breaches of the ToU/EULA effectively removes EVERYTHING associated with that account from New Eden. Their SP, ISK, assets and PLEX are all forfeit.

CCP is under NO obligation to re-cycle PLEX from banned accounts back into the EVE economy.

It would take a Court of Law ruling to force CCP to act otherwise and such a case would set many, many legal precedents (such as an actual ruling that click through agreements are not legally binding in any way for example).

This would require a player banned from EVE bringing an action against CCP in a *real world* court. Said court case would probably have to be brought in Iceland and it would be a civil matter.

All CCP has to prove is that said account breached the ToU/EULA that said player had agreed to follow.

Case Closed.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Avvy
Doomheim
#74 - 2016-01-27 12:11:22 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:




PLEX represent a liability on CCP's balance sheet...just deleting them is like just deleting liabilities...pretty sure that is going to be a big no-no.

If an account is banned, then any PLEX on that account will not be used for game time, character transfers, AUR, destroyed, etc....in perpetuity. Since reducing one's liabilities is a good thing, having PLEX "stranded" in a banned account is a Bad Thing™. Finding a legitimate use for them that also removes the liability is a Good Thing™.

Think of it this way...using PLEX on a banned account kills 2 birds with one stone, you get to have an awesome loot drop...and you reduce your liabilities at the same time. Win-win. Win for the guy getting the loot drop. Win for CCP.



I don't think it is a liability on the balance sheet.

You are buying PLEX which is just an in-game object, not really any different from buying an item from an in-game shop.

You wouldn't be able to calculate it as a liability anyway, as PLEX are used for more than just extending a subscription. You wouldn't know exactly how they will be used.

If CCP had to stop trading and it wasn't through gross negligence, they wouldn't have to honour those PLEX.

PLEX in-game only have an isk value and as we know that can fluctuate. So when you extend your game time via PLEX you are using something with an isk value.

The only real problem for CCP would be if, people stopped buying PLEX and more started using in-game PLEX to extend game time. Which is why CCP needs to have more ways to use PLEX so that there isn't such a surplus of them in-game.
Inotee Tahr
Feed Team 6
#75 - 2016-01-27 12:55:49 UTC
Skill points != Skill.

You can be the best skilled player and come out as the winning dude on a fresh account, as long as you know what you are doing. Buying skill points won't make you better, it will make you buy more expensive stuff that is lost on the battlefield, which in turn will yield more money to the actually skilled players.

So, yes, skill points might get you faster to the "goal you want", but it wont make you good at it. I see no problems in skill trading. The think that worries me the most, is that i'll end up spending way to much ISK on injectors and go bankrupt.

I will definitely lose some expensive stuff that I don't even know how to use properly in the upcoming future.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#76 - 2016-01-27 15:29:57 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

And CCP does not have a stock of PLEX other people have paid for? There are no PLEX on banned accounts?



I don't see why they would have a stockpile of PLEX other people have paid for.

Once PLEX enters the game it's just another object in-game.

PLEX can be created when required.

If an account is banned, then PLEX on the account can be deleted with the account otherwise left on the account if its just been frozen.


1. If it is in the game, it is CCP's.
2. These are banned accounts--i.e. accounts that CCP already owns and that they have seized and disabled the customer's access.
3. DrEyjog did use some of the PLEX on banned accounts during a market intervention in the past.

So the notion that CCP could use some of those PLEX as an item for a loot drop is quite possible and it removes a liability from their balance sheet.

To be clear a PLEX represents a liability on CCP's balance sheet and it can only be removed when it is used for game time. I don't think they can just be deleted from a banned account.



PLEX is a game object, so I don't see why it can't be deleted.

When you buy PLEX from CCP you are buying an object that when you redeem it, it enters the game. Once it's in-game you can do what you want with it.

CCP are effectively getting subs+ upfront when someone buys PLEX from them, but a percentage of those may never get used as they may just sit on inactive accounts. Others will get converted into AURUM. It can be a liability if they've not invested what they received in advance properly.

Still don't see why they would need to use banned account PLEX. As they can just create new ones, even for rat drops as long as they're rare. I suspect if they did what you said it was more a PR exercise, showing they ban accounts and giving some of the spoils back to the community.


PLEX represent a liability on CCP's balance sheet...just deleting them is like just deleting liabilities...pretty sure that is going to be a big no-no.

If an account is banned, then any PLEX on that account will not be used for game time, character transfers, AUR, destroyed, etc....in perpetuity. Since reducing one's liabilities is a good thing, having PLEX "stranded" in a banned account is a Bad Thing™. Finding a legitimate use for them that also removes the liability is a Good Thing™.

Think of it this way...using PLEX on a banned account kills 2 birds with one stone, you get to have an awesome loot drop...and you reduce your liabilities at the same time. Win-win. Win for the guy getting the loot drop. Win for CCP.


If they become the "owner" of the liability, it kind of stop mattering. It's like they own themselves 30 days of game time. I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong about "forgetting" that you owe yourself some "value".
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#77 - 2016-01-27 15:33:02 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:




PLEX represent a liability on CCP's balance sheet...just deleting them is like just deleting liabilities...pretty sure that is going to be a big no-no.

If an account is banned, then any PLEX on that account will not be used for game time, character transfers, AUR, destroyed, etc....in perpetuity. Since reducing one's liabilities is a good thing, having PLEX "stranded" in a banned account is a Bad Thing™. Finding a legitimate use for them that also removes the liability is a Good Thing™.

Think of it this way...using PLEX on a banned account kills 2 birds with one stone, you get to have an awesome loot drop...and you reduce your liabilities at the same time. Win-win. Win for the guy getting the loot drop. Win for CCP.



I don't think it is a liability on the balance sheet.

You are buying PLEX which is just an in-game object, not really any different from buying an item from an in-game shop.

You wouldn't be able to calculate it as a liability anyway, as PLEX are used for more than just extending a subscription. You wouldn't know exactly how they will be used.

If CCP had to stop trading and it wasn't through gross negligence, they wouldn't have to honour those PLEX.

PLEX in-game only have an isk value and as we know that can fluctuate. So when you extend your game time via PLEX you are using something with an isk value.

The only real problem for CCP would be if, people stopped buying PLEX and more started using in-game PLEX to extend game time. Which is why CCP needs to have more ways to use PLEX so that there isn't such a surplus of them in-game.


It's a liability just like gift cards are. You already have the money but still owe something to someone.
Avvy
Doomheim
#78 - 2016-01-27 15:44:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Frostys Virpio wrote:


It's a liability just like gift cards are. You already have the money but still owe something to someone.




Not sure that is the same.


Gift card is like an IOU it still has a real currency value.

PLEX in-game doesn't have a real currency value. You are buying the PLEX which is an in-game object.
Officer Pressly
Doomheim
#79 - 2016-01-27 15:51:07 UTC
Kuetlzelcoatl wrote:
One nice aspect is the ability to repect your characters after major game changes.

I found about 100 mil SP I could free up on a few characters of mine that I could transfer to a couple new alts.

All that SP comes from old gameplay I don't do anymore or skills I probably won't need due to the recent announced Cap changes. No need for level V remote rep skills on a ship that isn't bonused for it anymore. Not looking to go the Cap Logi route.



They dont want to see the benefits, they are just complaining about something they think they dont like. Nothing new tbh. I think this is one of the better changes in a long time. Its a good isk sink. It doesnt add sp. And it gives options you didnt have before, unless you bougth another character. This lets you keep the uniqeness of Your character, and lets you fix stuff, when changes come.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2016-01-27 16:32:05 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


It's a liability just like gift cards are. You already have the money but still owe something to someone.




Not sure that is the same.


Gift card is like an IOU it still has a real currency value.

PLEX in-game doesn't have a real currency value. You are buying the PLEX which is an in-game object.


It's an IOU for game time or other services offered just like a gift card can be used for a DVD, Kleenex boxes or gummie bears. It's an "e-gift card".