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A few issues have to be addressed in relation to SP Trading

First post
Author
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2016-01-25 10:49:04 UTC
In a nutshell:

. Up to now you can get SP by being subbed or by buying a character on the bazaar

. In a few weeks you'll also be able to get SP from somebody else's characters (or your alts)


Not sure what p2w has to do with this specific change. Note that both the current two SP-gaining options and the new one require you or someone else to pay CCP for the privilege.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2016-01-25 10:57:52 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
In a nutshell:

. Up to now you can get SP by being subbed or by buying a character on the bazaar

. In a few weeks you'll also be able to get SP from somebody else's characters (or your alts)


Not sure what p2w has to do with this specific change. Note that both the current two SP-gaining options and the new one require you or someone else to pay CCP for the privilege.



over 60 pages of why's

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2016-01-25 11:03:52 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
In a nutshell:

. Up to now you can get SP by being subbed or by buying a character on the bazaar

. In a few weeks you'll also be able to get SP from somebody else's characters (or your alts)


Not sure what p2w has to do with this specific change. Note that both the current two SP-gaining options and the new one require you or someone else to pay CCP for the privilege.



over 60 pages of why's
Yeah, read some of that, there's no coherent argument about this specific change making eve more or less p2w than it currently is.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2016-01-25 11:12:51 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
In a nutshell:

. Up to now you can get SP by being subbed or by buying a character on the bazaar

. In a few weeks you'll also be able to get SP from somebody else's characters (or your alts)


Not sure what p2w has to do with this specific change. Note that both the current two SP-gaining options and the new one require you or someone else to pay CCP for the privilege.



over 60 pages of why's
Yeah, read some of that, there's no coherent argument about this specific change making eve more or less p2w than it currently is.


plenty, but more likely you "don't want" to find those arguments

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Mithandra
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2016-01-25 11:36:46 UTC
Its just another method for ccp to generate income with people having to buy extractors

Doesn't matter how many sp you have if you lack experience in what you are flying

good thing? bad thing? I'm taking the "wait and see" approach.

Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2016-01-25 13:15:08 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
In a nutshell:

. Up to now you can get SP by being subbed or by buying a character on the bazaar

. In a few weeks you'll also be able to get SP from somebody else's characters (or your alts)


Not sure what p2w has to do with this specific change. Note that both the current two SP-gaining options and the new one require you or someone else to pay CCP for the privilege.



over 60 pages of why's
Yeah, read some of that, there's no coherent argument about this specific change making eve more or less p2w than it currently is.


plenty, but more likely you "don't want" to find those arguments
Probably these coherent arguments that you speak of are well hidden among the over 1000 posts of nonsense.

Help me out, point out a couple of good ones.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Keno Skir
#27 - 2016-01-25 14:03:05 UTC
More unskilled players flying battleships they bought SP for is a win in my book, and in my wallet.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2016-01-25 15:52:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
In a nutshell:

. Up to now you can get SP by being subbed or by buying a character on the bazaar

. In a few weeks you'll also be able to get SP from somebody else's characters (or your alts)


Not sure what p2w has to do with this specific change. Note that both the current two SP-gaining options and the new one require you or someone else to pay CCP for the privilege.



over 60 pages of why's
Yeah, read some of that, there's no coherent argument about this specific change making eve more or less p2w than it currently is.


plenty, but more likely you "don't want" to find those arguments
Probably these coherent arguments that you speak of are well hidden among the over 1000 posts of nonsense.

Help me out, point out a couple of good ones.


Sorry can't point to a specific post, but I will say that CCP has been rather clever here.

Outright selling of SP (created out of "thin air" by CCP) would be a disaster. Here CCP has created a scenario where aside from standard training SP in the game cannot increase and if anything may decrease.

Too the extent that the SP differential between older and newer players is a potential issue in terms of the game experience, this may...or may not be a good thing. There are a number of threads about gating, the power of older players with alot of SP, etc. with alot of sturm und drang and people just talking past each other.

CCP's view is (probably) that this new feature is taking the character bazaar to the next step. As I noted with the character bazaar there is much less choice. You may find a near match, but not a perfect match. This new feature will give greater control to the player, but at a cost (the decreasing marginal returns is pretty steep).

The fear is that veterans might find a way to use this to an overwhelming advantage relative to new players. The problem with this view point is that the "overwhelming advantage" might not be readily apparent. For example, the FW Exploit of 2012. A small number of clever players saw the problem. They warned CCP. CCP ignored them and so those players decided...okay, fine...and proceeded to abuse the frack out of it. Scroll down to the chart to see the problem.

Basically, these problems boil down to not having perfect foresight...which obviously we humans don't have. Sometimes in our hubris we forget that and do dumb things. You can see it all the time in RL where **** really matters....as in billions of dollars are at stake if not trillions. Are we to believe that a handful of people at CCP are better at spotting these potential risks? They certainly were not able to see the problem with FW LP...and they were literally warned on that one.

I can assure you on one thing...PLEX prices will undoubtedly be affected by this. Already it looks like the recent price stability in PLEX is over with a new upward trend. That is going to cause another round of people posting about the unfairness of it all.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#29 - 2016-01-25 17:24:11 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
..

It would take a major change in EVE mechanics to 'free up' vast amounts of redundant SP that might then make it to market. Getting rid of Off Grid Boosting would be such a change and it will be interesting to see what happens...



not really sure why you think this. you will still need your booster alts, they will just be on grid with you. so i doubt you will a massive dumping of alts. tbh

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2016-01-25 20:01:31 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
..

It would take a major change in EVE mechanics to 'free up' vast amounts of redundant SP that might then make it to market. Getting rid of Off Grid Boosting would be such a change and it will be interesting to see what happens...



not really sure why you think this. you will still need your booster alts, they will just be on grid with you. so i doubt you will a massive dumping of alts. tbh


Yeah I didn't get that either. Maybe....the FC will not want to use the alt...maybe? In which case the he could sell then alt or sell the SP.

In any event, it would be transitory effect not a permanent one.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2016-01-25 20:27:45 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
In a nutshell:

. Up to now you can get SP by being subbed or by buying a character on the bazaar

. In a few weeks you'll also be able to get SP from somebody else's characters (or your alts)


Not sure what p2w has to do with this specific change. Note that both the current two SP-gaining options and the new one require you or someone else to pay CCP for the privilege.


Here is my objection - not to the ability itself to trade SP, rather that the ability to enable that trade comes with an AUR cost.

These are the things I can spend my real-world money to purchase:

  • A month's worth of game time. (Can be done by either a subscription, or a PLEX.)
  • The ability to resculpt the way a character looks. This has no effect on in-game activities.
  • The ability to train multiple characters on a single account. This has no effect on in-game activities.
  • Cosmetic items like clothing and SKINs. This has no effect on in-game activities.
  • The ability to transfer ownership of a whole character. This has no effect on in-game activities.


These are things I can do in the game that do not cost any real-world money beyond the sub price. Some of them are quite basic.

  • Undock.
  • Engage in PvP.
  • List an item on the market, including PLEX.
  • Purchase items from the market, including PLEX.
  • Purchase a BPO from an NPC.
  • Insert an implant.
  • Inject a skillbook.


To me, adding an AUR cost to purchasing a Skill Extractor is akin to adding an AUR cost to purchasing a BPO. Extracting SP and selling it for ISK is a simple market transaction between two players. The transfer of control of a whole character is a very different thing, although I must apologize that I'm having difficulty articulating the precise reason why I feel that way. It's like, the things the character can do immediately pre- and post-sale are identical. There's no more of an impact to the game world than there is when I change my password. It's purely an out-of-game change.

Extracting SP with an AUR price will be, I think, the first time ever an in-game action with tangible impact on the game world will come with a real-world money cost. I'm uncomfortable with that, just like I would be uncomfortable with a 1 AUR cost to undock each time.

I would consider neither to be pay-to-win, to be clear. Neither undocking nor adding SP to your character is winning. I very much like the idea of trading SP, and expect to make use of it depending on how much ISK it ends up costing. I am not concerned about fantastically wealthy alliances with trillions of ISK buying up vast quantities of Skill Injectors.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2016-01-25 20:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Eli Stan wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
In a nutshell:

. Up to now you can get SP by being subbed or by buying a character on the bazaar

. In a few weeks you'll also be able to get SP from somebody else's characters (or your alts)


Not sure what p2w has to do with this specific change. Note that both the current two SP-gaining options and the new one require you or someone else to pay CCP for the privilege.


Here is my objection - not to the ability itself to trade SP, rather that the ability to enable that trade comes with an AUR cost.

These are the things I can spend my real-world money to purchase:

  • A month's worth of game time. (Can be done by either a subscription, or a PLEX.)
  • The ability to resculpt the way a character looks. This has no effect on in-game activities.
  • The ability to train multiple characters on a single account. This has no effect on in-game activities.
  • Cosmetic items like clothing and SKINs. This has no effect on in-game activities.
  • The ability to transfer ownership of a whole character. This has no effect on in-game activities.


These are things I can do in the game that do not cost any real-world money beyond the sub price. Some of them are quite basic.

  • Undock.
  • Engage in PvP.
  • List an item on the market, including PLEX.
  • Purchase items from the market, including PLEX.
  • Purchase a BPO from an NPC.
  • Insert an implant.
  • Inject a skillbook.


To me, adding an AUR cost to purchasing a Skill Extractor is akin to adding an AUR cost to purchasing a BPO. Extracting SP and selling it for ISK is a simple market transaction between two players. The transfer of control of a whole character is a very different thing, although I must apologize that I'm having difficulty articulating the precise reason why I feel that way. It's like, the things the character can do immediately pre- and post-sale are identical. There's no more of an impact to the game world than there is when I change my password. It's purely an out-of-game change.

Extracting SP with an AUR price will be, I think, the first time ever an in-game action with tangible impact on the game world will come with a real-world money cost. I'm uncomfortable with that, just like I would be uncomfortable with a 1 AUR cost to undock each time.

I would consider neither to be pay-to-win, to be clear. Neither undocking nor adding SP to your character is winning. I very much like the idea of trading SP, and expect to make use of it depending on how much ISK it ends up costing. I am not concerned about fantastically wealthy alliances with trillions of ISK buying up vast quantities of Skill Injectors.


You forgot one:

Buy PLEX, sell for ISK, buy new 67 million SP character 3 days into the game.

Edit: Oh, and people can buy extractors and sell them on the market too for ISK--i.e. you may very well be able to buy them for ISK. Depends on how liquid the market is though.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2016-01-25 22:06:09 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

You forgot one:

Buy PLEX, sell for ISK, buy new 67 million SP character 3 days into the game.


I did not forget that one. It's covered by combining the first and fifth points of my first list and third point of my second list. One of the cool things about EVE is that a collection of simple independent steps can be combined to result in a complex outcome.

Quote:
Edit: Oh, and people can buy extractors and sell them on the market too for ISK--i.e. you may very well be able to buy them for ISK. Depends on how liquid the market is though.


Yes, I fully expect that, depending on the market relationships between AUR, ISK, empty Extractors and PLEX, players will investigate the profitability of turning real-world money into ISK via purchasing AUR with real-money, then purchasing Extractor via AUR, then selling the Extractor for ISK. My theory is that it will be more profitable to simply purchase AUR and sell it for ISK directly, however.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2016-01-25 22:08:37 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

You forgot one:

Buy PLEX, sell for ISK, buy new 67 million SP character 3 days into the game.


I did not forget that one. It's covered by combining the first and fifth points of my first list and third point of my second list. One of the cool things about EVE is that a collection of simple independent steps can be combined to result in a complex outcome.

Quote:
Edit: Oh, and people can buy extractors and sell them on the market too for ISK--i.e. you may very well be able to buy them for ISK. Depends on how liquid the market is though.


Yes, I fully expect that, depending on the market relationships between AUR, ISK, empty Extractors and PLEX, players will investigate the profitability of turning real-world money into ISK via purchasing AUR with real-money, then purchasing Extractor via AUR, then selling the Extractor for ISK. My theory is that it will be more profitable to simply purchase AUR and sell it for ISK directly, however.


The point is that there are things in game that can already be traded for Aurum. I don’t see that as a serious problem at all.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2016-01-25 23:05:19 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
The point is that there are things in game that can already be traded for Aurum. I don’t see that as a serious problem at all.


Indeed. Currently, the things that one can trade for Aurum are:


  1. ISK. I have no problem with that.
  2. Vanity items like SKINs and clothing. I have no problem with that either.


I have no problem with item #1 due to the nature of item #2.

However, soon we will have a new item that requires Aurum to trade for - one that is not just vanity, rather it has a direct impact on gameplay. That makes me uncomfortable.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2016-01-25 23:12:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Eli Stan wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
The point is that there are things in game that can already be traded for Aurum. I don’t see that as a serious problem at all.


Indeed. Currently, the things that one can trade for Aurum are:


  1. ISK. I have no problem with that.
  2. Vanity items like SKINs and clothing. I have no problem with that either.


I have no problem with item #1 due to the nature of item #2.

However, soon we will have a new item that requires Aurum to trade for - one that is not just vanity, rather it has a direct impact on gameplay. That makes me uncomfortable.
Characters can be traded for isk, and those DO have a gameplay impact as Teckos Pech pointed out. As you also pointed out, since isk can be had for AUR, AUR has the same indirect impact on gameplay here as it does through skill injectors.

Also I think it's worth arguing that easy access to abundant isk is also a factor that affects gameplay in its own manner.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2016-01-25 23:25:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Eli Stan wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
The point is that there are things in game that can already be traded for Aurum. I don’t see that as a serious problem at all.


Indeed. Currently, the things that one can trade for Aurum are:


  1. ISK. I have no problem with that.
  2. Vanity items like SKINs and clothing. I have no problem with that either.


I have no problem with item #1 due to the nature of item #2.

However, soon we will have a new item that requires Aurum to trade for - one that is not just vanity, rather it has a direct impact on gameplay. That makes me uncomfortable.
Characters can be traded for isk, and those DO have a gameplay impact as Teckos Pech pointed out. As you also pointed out, since isk can be had for AUR, AUR has the same indirect impact on gameplay here as it does through skill injectors.

Also I think it's worth arguing that easy access to abundant isk is also a factor that affects gameplay in its own manner.


Yeah, I'm just not seeing this as a problem, at least a significant one. So Bob buys Aurum and decides to use it to buy skill injectors…? You can also buy Aurum with ISK, no? Thought I saw some listed on the market in Jita not too long ago. Maybe you can explain your concerns a bit more?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2016-01-25 23:28:17 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Characters can be traded for isk, and those DO have a gameplay impact as Teckos Pech pointed out.


I do not consider that moving a character from one account to another as having any direct EVE-world impact. Snapshot the EVE database before and after a character move, and you will see no differences. No items moved from one hangar to another. No market orders were affected. No ships or rats will show as having been destroyed. No character's or alliance's wallet will show a different balance. The only thing different is the login ID that character is associated with, and login IDs are entirely outside of the game world.

Quote:
As you also pointed out, since isk can be had for AUR, AUR has the same indirect impact on gameplay here as it does through skill injectors.


It's the things that go to CCP and redeem AUR for that concern me, not that AUR can be passed between players for an agreed upon ISK amount. Currently, somebody can spend millions of real-world currency and acquire millions of AUR - and it really wouldn't have much effect on the game no matter what they did with it, since it can only be redeemed for vanity items, except perhaps drive down the ISK value of AUR by flooding the market, which again doesn't really matter much since AUR will still be available to everybody for the same real-world cost. Skill Extractors and the resulting Injectors, however, are not vanity items, and somebody spending millions of real-world currency to acquire AUR in order to acquire Extractions, can, assuming they have access to enough SP, have a significant impact on the game-world.
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2016-01-25 23:31:59 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

Yeah, I'm just not seeing this as a problem, at least a significant one. So Bob buys Aurum and decides to use it to buy skill injectors…? You can also buy Aurum with ISK no? Thought I saw some listed on the market in Jita not too long ago. Maybe you can explain your concerns a bit more?


A Skill Extractor has an in-game effect. Undocking has an in-game effect. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of Skill Extractors requiring AUR for the exact same reason I would be uncomfortable with undocking requiring an AUR cost, even if I can use my time in-game to acquire ISK that I then use to purchase AUR from somebody else who has acquired that AUR by spending real-world currency. It increases the real-world cost of playing the game (even though it's an optional aspect of it) beyond the month's worth of game-time that is currently, other than the character bazaar and vanity items, the only cost to playing EVE.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2016-01-25 23:35:17 UTC
Eli Stan wrote:


It's the things that go to CCP and redeem AUR for that concern me, not that AUR can be passed between players for an agreed upon ISK amount. Currently, somebody can spend millions of real-world currency and acquire millions of AUR - and it really wouldn't have much effect on the game no matter what they did with it, since it can only be redeemed for vanity items, except perhaps drive down the ISK value of AUR by flooding the market, which again doesn't really matter much since AUR will still be available to everybody for the same real-world cost. Skill Extractors and the resulting Injectors, however, are not vanity items, and somebody spending millions of real-world currency to acquire AUR in order to acquire Extractions, can, assuming they have access to enough SP, have a significant impact on the game-world.


I’m still not seeing the problem here? Okay…so millions of SP in injectors are now on the market…and the problem is?

To use your character transfer example: In terms of SP, the amount of SP in the game is the same before and after the extractors are used then put on the market. In fact, when people buy them the total amount of SP in the game may very well go down.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online