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The Ferox is underpowered and needs a buff
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#21 - 2016-01-25 11:25:30 UTC
A Ferox can outclass a Harbinger simply by being faster and having more range. A Harbinger fleet has no way of winning against a similarly strong Ferox fleet for the simple reason that the Harbs cannot get in range of the Feroxes, whereas Feroxes can simply fly circles around them without problems. The same goes for a Brutix and Hurricanes. That is all in fleet scenarios. However, as demonstrated by suitonia even before the BC changes, a Ferox can also perform very well in solo/small gank scenarios.

As said, I do not see a problem at all with Feroxes.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2016-01-25 13:59:49 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

How do you get figures suggesting to you that the DPS is the same? The Brutix has much better DPS than the Ferox.


No it doesn't, it gets "slightly" more dps but has worse damage projection than the ferox. The ferox is great with blasters or rails and has a good tank.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#23 - 2016-01-25 15:25:37 UTC
Reaver, you make me sad. I thought your were above this sort of thing. Shame on you.

Either of your proposed changes would have the same outcome - The ferox would be THE BC blob ship of choice. It would just simply be better than all the others at flying around in flocks chewing through everything. Superior Scimi survivability or superior damage projection. Sigh....

I'm going to go sit in a corner and try to come to terms with this thread. You've betrayed us all.
Lann Shahni
The Cinder Cell
#24 - 2016-01-25 15:30:58 UTC
I don't understand why you insist on trying use the ferox as a Brawler, when it's a sniper boat,
like trying to use fork as spoon, you can do it, just not very well!
it's the best medium sniper, that sniper it's not much used is another case!
if you wana a brawler ship use one!
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#25 - 2016-01-25 15:50:45 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Yet somehow people love the ferox and it's featuring very strongly in fleets. EFT warrioring on very specific aspects with weird choices of numbers does not tell the whole story.


It's almost like you have to undock and fly the ships to see how they perform, rather than simply reading the description.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2016-01-25 18:37:42 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
A Ferox can outclass a Harbinger simply by being faster and having more range. A Harbinger fleet has no way of winning against a similarly strong Ferox fleet for the simple reason that the Harbs cannot get in range of the Feroxes, whereas Feroxes can simply fly circles around them without problems.

That is patently false, Harbingers are much faster than Feroxes. Also, MMJDs.

Rivr Luzade wrote:
However, as demonstrated by suitonia even before the BC changes, a Ferox can also perform very well in solo/small gank scenarios.

Battlebadgers prove that bad ships can do great things. That doesn't mean the Ferox isn't underpowered.

Rek Seven wrote:
No it doesn't, it gets "slightly" more dps but has worse damage projection than the ferox. The ferox is great with blasters or rails and has a good tank.

No, it gets WAY more damage. A Brutix with rails can outdamage a Ferox with blasters by a good margin. And then it gets a tank bonus on top.

All Combat Battlecruisers have good tank, but the Ferox does not stand out above the others for its tank.

Serendipity Lost wrote:
Either of your proposed changes would have the same outcome - The ferox would be THE BC blob ship of choice. It would just simply be better than all the others at flying around in flocks chewing through everything. Superior Scimi survivability or superior damage projection. Sigh....

Please give any reason at all to defend why you think this would be true? Just saying it doesn't make it true and all evidence seems to suggest the opposite. I've never seen or heard of a Ferox fleet doctrine.

Lann Shahni wrote:
I don't understand why you insist on trying use the ferox as a Brawler, when it's a sniper boat,

At what point did I ever suggest using the Ferox as a brawler? I am well aware it is a sniper. It's not a very good sniper. The only reason it has a niche at all is because it's the only sniper combat battlecruiser. That also makes it difficult to offer up comparisons but I still don't see how you guys don't see the glaring error here.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2016-01-25 18:38:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
FT Diomedes wrote:
It's almost like you have to undock and fly the ships to see how they perform, rather than simply reading the description.

I have to wonder if anyone posting here has ever flown a Ferox -OR- put it into EFT.



Serendipity Lost wrote:
Reaver, you make me sad. I thought your were above this sort of thing. Shame on you.

I'm going to go sit in a corner and try to come to terms with this thread. You've betrayed us all.

I'm having a really hard time understanding what you guys don't get about this.

I even made a chart showing damage projection on all ammo types, Brutix vs Ferox.
CHART
Blue/green is Brutix with rails, red/orange is Ferox with rails. Higher dots are higher DPS values, and dots further to the right have further range. All non-pirate ammo types are shown.


As you can clearly see, the Ferox's damage projection is very similar to the Brutix's damage projection in the ranges where they meet. Naturally, the Ferox can hit longer ranges but with lower DPS, while the Brutix can hit higher DPS but with shorter ranges.

They're roughly equivalent. But contrary to what you guys keep saying about the Ferox having some magical unseen defensive powers it doesn't actually have, the Brutix actually does have much better tank than the Ferox. In some ways, the Brutix is a better sniper than the Ferox, and it'll do especially well when the sniper fleet gets a brawler fleet dropped on it. Drop a brawler fleet on Feroxes and they're done for. They should at least be good at their only niche.


edit: I should clarify that a Brutix has better defense than a Ferox in some situations, primarily when used for solo or small gang operations. A fleet-fit Brutix has about the same defense as a fleet-fit Ferox. The Ferox does not, at any point, have better defense than a Brutix.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#28 - 2016-01-25 21:12:34 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
It's almost like you have to undock and fly the ships to see how they perform, rather than simply reading the description.

I have to wonder if anyone posting here has ever flown a Ferox -OR- put it into EFT.



Serendipity Lost wrote:
Reaver, you make me sad. I thought your were above this sort of thing. Shame on you.

I'm going to go sit in a corner and try to come to terms with this thread. You've betrayed us all.

I'm having a really hard time understanding what you guys don't get about this.

I even made a chart showing damage projection on all ammo types, Brutix vs Ferox.
CHART
Blue/green is Brutix with rails, red/orange is Ferox with rails. Higher dots are higher DPS values, and dots further to the right have further range. All non-pirate ammo types are shown.


As you can clearly see, the Ferox's damage projection is very similar to the Brutix's damage projection in the ranges where they meet. Naturally, the Ferox can hit longer ranges but with lower DPS, while the Brutix can hit higher DPS but with shorter ranges.

They're roughly equivalent. But contrary to what you guys keep saying about the Ferox having some magical unseen defensive powers it doesn't actually have, the Brutix actually does have much better tank than the Ferox. In some ways, the Brutix is a better sniper than the Ferox, and it'll do especially well when the sniper fleet gets a brawler fleet dropped on it. Drop a brawler fleet on Feroxes and they're done for. They should at least be good at their only niche.


edit: I should clarify that a Brutix has better defense than a Ferox in some situations, primarily when used for solo or small gang operations. A fleet-fit Brutix has about the same defense as a fleet-fit Ferox. The Ferox does not, at any point, have better defense than a Brutix.


Exactly what fit are you using for the Brutix? Because that fit on page one with the XL-ASBs is pretty valid, and very tanky. Would easily out tank a dual-rep Brutix.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2016-01-25 21:23:42 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Exactly what fit are you using for the Brutix? Because that fit on page one with the XL-ASBs is pretty valid, and very tanky. Would easily out tank a dual-rep Brutix.

Shield boosters have more raw restored HP amount than armor repairers. Are you trying to suggest that armor repairers are underpowered? Because if not, then the Brutix is a better rep-tanker than the Ferox, end of story.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2016-01-26 07:56:39 UTC
end of the day, your suggested change isn't going to happen. Caldari hybrid ships get more range and gallante get higher damage, as it has always been.

Fly the brutix if you feel it's the better ship better.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2016-01-26 09:19:20 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
end of the day, your suggested change isn't going to happen. Caldari hybrid ships get more range and gallante get higher damage, as it has always been.

Not contrary to my suggestion. I included two solutions in my post, one makes the Ferox more powerful than the Brutix at the cost of defense, and the other brings back the Ferox's defense bonus and leaves its relative offense equivalent in terms of range to damage ratios. Actually my defensive suggestion reduces the Ferox's damage a bit at skill 5 as I suggest only a 20% damage role bonus after removing the 5% per level.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#32 - 2016-01-26 10:49:56 UTC
So, either case makes the Ferox worse than it is now? Either more Damage with worse tank (making it less viable as a fleet or solo platform) or more tank but less DPS (making it less able to kill things).

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2016-01-26 10:59:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Rivr Luzade wrote:
So, either case makes the Ferox worse than it is now? Either more Damage with worse tank (making it less viable as a fleet or solo platform) or more tank but less DPS (making it less able to kill things).

I don't know if you checked recently, but the Ferox doesn't have its resist bonus anymore. Previously, when it still did, it had 7 turret slots and no damage bonus, forcing it to spend a larger percentage of its fitting on weapons for a significantly lower damage output.

My suggestion is far from a nerf. Increasing its damage won't decrease its tank, and increasing its tank (with my suggestion) gives it a marginal decrease in damage far smaller than the gap that already exists between it and the Brutix in terms of damage.

Please do some basic research before posting.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#34 - 2016-01-26 11:52:58 UTC
Quote:
...one makes the Ferox more powerful than the Brutix at the cost of defense,

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2016-01-26 12:35:13 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Quote:
...one makes the Ferox more powerful than the Brutix at the cost of defense,

It already costs the defense. If you had read my proposal you would have seen that I didn't suggest any further reductions.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#36 - 2016-01-26 13:19:07 UTC
Reaver, ships don't all have to be the same. You seem to want to homogenize Eve. We had a Ferox doctrine before we switched to Hurricanes because alpha damage is very nice. Plenty of folks still have the Ferox and use them effectively in the small gangs I lead. The Ferox is unquestionably a better shield doctrine fleet ship than the Brutix. That's its role.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2016-01-26 14:39:00 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Reaver, ships don't all have to be the same. You seem to want to homogenize Eve.

I've given no such indication.

FT Diomedes wrote:
The Ferox is unquestionably a better shield doctrine fleet ship than the Brutix. That's its role.

I never suggested that the Brutix is a better shield-tanker.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2016-01-26 14:59:03 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Reaver, ships don't all have to be the same. You seem to want to homogenize Eve.

I've given no such indication.

FT Diomedes wrote:
The Ferox is unquestionably a better shield doctrine fleet ship than the Brutix. That's its role.

I never suggested that the Brutix is a better shield-tanker.


Then the Ferox is better than the Brutix at something so there is no need to change it seeing as it already has it's own use case that isn't a stupid gimmick.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2016-01-26 15:28:47 UTC  |  Edited by: ChromeStriker
Show us your fits.

Somethings wrong with your statements and the only way to prove this to you is through the fits....

Ferox and Brutix.

No Worries
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2016-01-27 02:37:49 UTC
So you want to say that because the Ferox can do something that no other combat battlecruiser can do, that therefore means it isn't underpowered? If the Cerberus had its missile rate of fire bonus removed, would it not be underpowered? It would still outrange any other HAC but at considerably reduced DPS. Does that mean it would be fine without the rate of fire bonus? Should the bonus be removed? Is it overpowered to have the bonus? Because by your logic apparently it is.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."