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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

First post First post First post
Author
Specia1 K
State War Academy
Caldari State
#841 - 2016-01-21 01:31:55 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Because I'm not debating the decision, but rather trying to understand the reasoning behind the opposition. That and pointing out where it seems to logically fail.


Tippia won the logical argument in the initial thread.
This thread is all redundant.

Said my piece, I'm out.

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#842 - 2016-01-21 01:34:24 UTC
Specia1 K wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Because I'm not debating the decision, but rather trying to understand the reasoning behind the opposition. That and pointing out where it seems to logically fail.


Tippia won the logical argument in the initial thread.
This thread is all redundant.

Said my piece, I'm out.
Not sure I can agree with that assessment, but ok.

Later.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#843 - 2016-01-21 01:52:43 UTC
Character sales were a necessary evil to combat gold sellers.
This is not, this is a cash grab and an introduction to buying significant steps up for your character.

Now.... I suppose if they stopped character selling so you always know who owns a particular character and instead replaced the mechanic with this I could live with this.

However that is not what they are doing. And it is a very dangerous step as a result.
Memphis Baas
#844 - 2016-01-21 02:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
CCP, please implement character appearance options for heavy skill extractor / injector users. Something like reddened skin and a grouping of needle marks on the temples or forehead or whatever. Maybe bloodshot eyes too. Or hair styles where a small circular patch of hair is missing (at the extraction/injection site).
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#845 - 2016-01-21 02:53:15 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
CCP, please implement character appearance options for heavy skill extractor / injector users. Something like reddened skin and a grouping of needle marks on the temples or forehead or whatever. Maybe bloodshot eyes too. Or hair styles where a small circular patch of hair is missing (at the extraction/injection site).


+1

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#846 - 2016-01-21 02:56:51 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
CCP, please implement character appearance options for heavy skill extractor / injector users. Something like reddened skin and a grouping of needle marks on the temples or forehead or whatever. Maybe bloodshot eyes too. Or hair styles where a small circular patch of hair is missing (at the extraction/injection site).


Saw the fan-made concept art for this on Reddit, +1.

Make the impure ones readily visible. Lol

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Memphis Baas
#847 - 2016-01-21 02:59:25 UTC
Link?
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#848 - 2016-01-21 03:14:40 UTC
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/41nzds/adding_lasting_consequence_to_skill_packet_use/

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Scott Dracov
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#849 - 2016-01-21 03:23:52 UTC
Sad day for me personally upon hearing this...

My desire to make sure I train skills relentlessly just abruptly stopped and I do not know why.

Please explain my reaction.
Memphis Baas
#850 - 2016-01-21 03:32:19 UTC
That looks more like a skin rash, rather than damage / partially-healed skin from "injectors". Which would go directly into the head, rather than the spinal pod connectors. Still, cool art.

What I suggested is completely optional; I don't think anyone would like losing control over their portraits like the reddit thread suggests. I also think that API checks to the skills and wallet will probably be sufficient to detect injector users.
Nootex Dox
Thukka Tribe
#851 - 2016-01-21 04:14:36 UTC
Dismantle New Eden Store or RIOT !!! Evil
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
#852 - 2016-01-21 04:46:39 UTC
Hmmm...It's officially Pay-to-Win
So is this the beginning of the End of EVE.
It was fun while it lasted.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#853 - 2016-01-21 04:52:28 UTC
Ideas I have seen in this thread and plan on bringing up with CCP include . . .

Edit Filter to remove 0 pt skills from showing (Yes I know you know they are there but it will look cleaner just the same)

Banned (or those with a 'record')characters are limited in their ability to use this, taking out or putting in.

Skills do not instantly appear but speed training ala Blood Raider devices. Even if it took a few hours for the full 500k that still keeps from insta-flavour of the month nonsense.

SP changes (poditive or negative) should show on the character sheet or at least on an API pull. This IS part of who and what you are.

512k points rather than 500. I understand that one but I am afraid they will keep to the 500 to make you want o buy more as someone pointed out.

Take MORE than 4 hours for the process to remove the points. Yes this is focused directly at the 'hours for plex' crew from being able to strip an account without actually paying for a month usage. Alternative is ONLY subbed accts can use the skill extracation devices.

I am gonna keep reading what you gloriously angry but thoughtful people put here. Just letting you know the parts and suggestions I like of an idea that I do not like.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#854 - 2016-01-21 04:58:21 UTC  |  Edited by: King Aires
The mouth-breathers claiming this is not P2W are wrong.

When one loses a T3Cruiser they lose a skill level. Now they can "buy" that skill back instantly. This becomes important in long 0.0 wars where T3C fleets are more preferred for non-capital combat.

He who has the richest members, wins in the alliance wars.

It is also P2W because SP is necessary to unlock parts of this game. Without the skills for marauders, you can't fly them. Now in one day you could join and unlock whatever you want with enough cash.

Now any time CCP nerf hammers the FOTM, those with the credit cards ready to fly can switch skills right to the new hotness, while the rest of us are stuck with skills less than desirable and have to start training up the new stuff.

This might not be P2W in the sense that a newb won't be able to buy 100mil sp and solo win fights. But when it comes to being able to field large doctrine fleets, do profitable PVE or unlock parts of the game reserved to seasoned players, it is clearly P2W.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#855 - 2016-01-21 05:10:31 UTC
King Aires wrote:
The mouth-breathers claiming this is not P2W are wrong.

When one loses a T3Cruiser they lose a skill level. Now they can "buy" that skill back instantly. This becomes important in long 0.0 wars where T3C fleets are more preferred for non-capital combat.

He who has the richest members, wins in the alliance wars.
Sounds more like having a ship class balanced by SP loss rather than actually being balanced was maybe not the best idea.

King Aires wrote:
It is also P2W because SP is necessary to unlock parts of this game. Without the skills for marauders, you can't fly them. Now in one day you could join and unlock whatever you want with enough cash.

This might not be P2W in the sense that a newb won't be able to buy 100mil sp and solo win fights. But when it comes to being able to field large doctrine fleets, do profitable PVE or unlock parts of the game reserved to seasoned players, it is clearly P2W.
I guess I'm lost here. I think the skill system here is a pretty ideal progression mechanic in itself, but can't for the life of me understand some of the values associated with it. Specifically the idea that anything needs to be locked behind a mandatory wait to prevent someone from "winning" by the loosest use of the word I've ever seen.

The concept that certain players effectively don't deserve to do certain things due to tenure and there should be no way for them to speed the process short of spending 10s of billions is baffling to me. Leaving aside the fact that some simply tolerate even that method.

Basically it seems playing the game is equivalent to "winning" and that being the case younger players aren't allowed to get into the stuff that everyone is now saying is actually worthwhile.
Kyra Lee
Ixian Machines
#856 - 2016-01-21 06:36:22 UTC
Posted this in my Alliance's forums and thought I should post here as well. I read about 15 or so pages into this thread so forgive me if these things have been covered after that.

I for one see this a wholly bad change for the game. It removes consequences from the seller and reduces overall value for the buyer.

1. Removing consequences
The choices you made creating your character, skilling them up while you mined, ratted, or pvped are what made them into what they are today. You tried something and did or didn't like it and then made another choice. It took me like 6 years to decide I wanted to be an industrialist character. Those SP I put into spaceship command or drones is sort of useless now, but they are part of my characters history. I know why I did that at the time.

Players trained their skills based on decisions they made at the time. Some planned them out years in advance and some just picked the coolest named ones. Either way they have a consequence that must be payed for their decision. There seems to be a movement going around, in America at least, trying to remove negative history from all our records. To me this feels like the same movement, and you get to make ISK from it!

2. Reducing value
Part of the draw, for me at least, was learning new things in this game. Figuring out how mechanics work and how to use them against other players. All of that stuff takes time. I learned how to manually pilot in a Rifter and when I lost one it wasn't that big of a deal. I moved up to a Moa and learned how to snipe, meaning I didn't need to it as strong of a tank for the missions I was on. I also learned I needed tracking to deal with those frigates. I know I lost at least one Moa due to that mistake. I took what I had learned and then moved into a Ferox. I fit it with 200mm rails to deal with the frigates but then found that I didn't have enough damage to deal with the BS belt rats in nullsec. That is when someone told me about tracking computers!

All of this learning was done as my core and support skills trained up. I was able to afford to replace my losses with the isk I had earned. A new player starting out with isk from Plex and SP from injectors isn't going to know all of the nuances of how to properly fly their ships. They won't have as strong of a connection to their ship because they didn't earn it. At best they will see them all as 100% expendable cause they can just buy a new one. At worst they will think, I just bought this ship with real money and it got blown up in 10 seconds, why should I keep doing this? Overall they are just going to end up with more expensive losses and need to buy more Plex to replace them, and keep paying their subscription. Dropping that much cash on a game doesn't seem appealing to me when there are many others out there that either only charge a subscription or are free to play but have micro transactions, but not both.

People keep talking about this existing through the character bazaar. This is not the same though. With the bazaar someone still paid for the consequences of the decisions that made that character who they are. You have to keep the name, have to live with them being an AWOXer, have to live with their faction warfare standings, and so on. The bazaar was not designed to sell SP, it was designed to limit black market character sales.

There seems to be a trend happening to this game that I find very unsettling. The devs seem to be trying to limit peoples risk or increase their isk payout. This in turn has lead to small plex farming in rookie ships, roaming in frigates and destroyers instead of larger more expensive ships, safer and more lucrative ratting, huge isk faucets in highsec, and groups like CODE and Marmites popping up to generate content because it isn't really happening elsewhere. The new asset safety system in the new citadels is another step in that direction. This harsh and unforgiving world we started with is feeling a lot less harsh and more forgiving(if you buy some Plex) each and every patch.

All this was said without addressing any balance issues dealing with older players exploiting this system to increase their power even further. That will happen.

I am going to think about this some more before I decide but right now I think I will be unsubbing my accounts when this patch drops. I am getting tired of seeing this game hulled out into a shell of its former self.
Zozoll Neblyn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#857 - 2016-01-21 06:43:04 UTC
Personally I won't know how I feel about this for sure until I see the price. I want to know if it is "pay to win", or "pay A LOT to win".

If it's "Pay A LOT to win", then I don't mind seeing a few rich players subsidizing the game for the rest of us.

If it's just "pay to win" (at a reasonable price) then I'll be annoyed, because it will mean you have to pay or you will fall behind the curve and be unable to compete. But if it's "pay A LOT to win" then there's nothing to worry about because probably the majority of players won't be doing it.



King Aires wrote:
The mouth-breathers claiming this is not P2W are wrong.

When one loses a T3Cruiser they lose a skill level. Now they can "buy" that skill back instantly. This becomes important in long 0.0 wars where T3C fleets are more preferred for non-capital combat.


I'm not overwhelmed by the difference that would make.

Quote:

Now any time CCP nerf hammers the FOTM, those with the credit cards ready to fly can switch skills right to the new hotness, while the rest of us are stuck with skills less than desirable and have to start training up the new stuff.


This is quite a bit more serious. They need to quit flipping around the skill benefits so much!

A player who has subbed for 3+ years has already paid the ISK to have good skills. Making their skills no good anymore reverses that.

I'd hate to see a situation where a new player paying their way to skills instantly actually does BETTER than a patient player waiting for them (and also paying, via their subs).
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#858 - 2016-01-21 07:09:45 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Sounds more like having a ship class balanced by SP loss rather than actually being balanced was maybe not the best idea.

and introducing this feature before balancing T3 will be a disaster. Wait what balance? We have D3 with dead focus group.

512k SP? Ppl are so naive. It's all about money. Some of you are happy that you'll respec you mining skills. Right...you'll pay for SP loss, because that is what it be, unless you are <5mil SP.

EvE is eating it's tail. Overall PCU will increase, but we are going back to alts on-line with spike on new citadels.

Focus Nordgren. If this don't work you'll be the person resposible for slow death of EvE. We will see in feburaury 2017 I guess.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#859 - 2016-01-21 07:19:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
Mike Azariah wrote:
Ideas I have seen in this thread and plan on bringing up with CCP include . . .

Edit Filter to remove 0 pt skills from showing (Yes I know you know they are there but it will look cleaner just the same)

Banned (or those with a 'record')characters are limited in their ability to use this, taking out or putting in.

Skills do not instantly appear but speed training ala Blood Raider devices. Even if it took a few hours for the full 500k that still keeps from insta-flavour of the month nonsense.

SP changes (poditive or negative) should show on the character sheet or at least on an API pull. This IS part of who and what you are.

512k points rather than 500. I understand that one but I am afraid they will keep to the 500 to make you want o buy more as someone pointed out.

Take MORE than 4 hours for the process to remove the points. Yes this is focused directly at the 'hours for plex' crew from being able to strip an account without actually paying for a month usage. Alternative is ONLY subbed accts can use the skill extracation devices.

I am gonna keep reading what you gloriously angry but thoughtful people put here. Just letting you know the parts and suggestions I like of an idea that I do not like.

m

It is a bit late isn't it? All this ideas and suggestions where around the last time and CCP ignored them. Why do you think they listen now? They probably already implemented the feature. They probably even implemented it before the first blog and it was just some trick to defuse the bomb this would be before the officially commit to the idea and say it is coming. I don't think the players had any voice at all in this.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#860 - 2016-01-21 07:53:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Ideas I have seen in this thread and plan on bringing up with CCP include . . .

Edit Filter to remove 0 pt skills from showing (Yes I know you know they are there but it will look cleaner just the same)

Banned (or those with a 'record')characters are limited in their ability to use this, taking out or putting in.

Skills do not instantly appear but speed training ala Blood Raider devices. Even if it took a few hours for the full 500k that still keeps from insta-flavour of the month nonsense.

SP changes (poditive or negative) should show on the character sheet or at least on an API pull. This IS part of who and what you are.

512k points rather than 500. I understand that one but I am afraid they will keep to the 500 to make you want o buy more as someone pointed out.

Take MORE than 4 hours for the process to remove the points. Yes this is focused directly at the 'hours for plex' crew from being able to strip an account without actually paying for a month usage. Alternative is ONLY subbed accts can use the skill extracation devices.

I am gonna keep reading what you gloriously angry but thoughtful people put here. Just letting you know the parts and suggestions I like of an idea that I do not like.

m

It is a bit late isn't it? All this ideas and suggestions where around the last time and CCP ignored them. Why do you think they listen now? They probably already implemented the feature. They probably even implemented it before the first blog and it was just some trick to defuse the bomb this would be before the officially commit to the idea and say it is coming. I don't think the players had any voice at all in this.


Probably right. But Mike is also right, if CCP is gonna gift us an herpes with our money, we should be allowed to have a voice on what kind of herpes will be.

Admittedly, I am culturally inclined to fatalism, so I will just weather this storm hoping that it won't affect me via PLEX prices. Because there's little things that can be done now and weren't suggested in the threadnaught, and of the things that could be done, none would really work to remove this feature once CCP has comitted to it.

CCP needs/wants more money from EVE. They've decided that double charging players for skills is the safest/easiest to implement option at the moment. This will change EVE forever, but very likely CCP can't do anything else, or maybe doesn't wants.

As I said, if they can't make EVE a better game, they will sell it in a different way.

And thus it begins.