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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6421 - 2016-01-20 19:40:41 UTC
Jayden Thomas wrote:
One big part of a sandbox is that each decision you make carries weight. Skill training is a very long process, ie a BIG decision. Allowing people to take shortcuts (or fix mistakes) in this incredibly long process sort of takes the weight out of the decision, at least for those of us that aren't paying CCP for ISK.

I'd agree that the sandbox has changed. You mentioned the whole consequences for your mistakes but this is nothing new. Look at the clone changes. Remember when you had to buy a clone and if you were too stupid to you lost SP?

Jayden Thomas wrote:
I'm also bummed that CCP continues to cater to the newer and younger EVE pilots. Where's the love for their veteran players? How about free subscriptions if you have more than 5 years of game time on your account?

This has been going on for a while. Loyalty is great and all but if they can do something that attracts five noobs that means more subscriptions. They're paying the same monthly subscription for their 900k SP pilot as your 100m one. Even if you quit they're still up four subs. Now lets say even if only two of the original five continue to play after a few months they just doubled their subscriptions. Combine this with making more ways to spend RL cash and their profits go up! I hate to say it but CCP is going to profit from this at least in the short run.
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#6422 - 2016-01-20 20:48:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
What will happen of course is people will train their own alts and inject the points they gain through multi-training into their main, speeding up the training process in the extreme. If that's what you're after.. congrats.. Also say you have a really nasty character with a terrible rep.. he scammed a ton of people and stole a whole bank worth of ISK... Owner shaves off the skills and profits on an anonymous and easier to play character - thus, in theory, escaping some of the consequences his actions ...and in effect changing his character name.

It's an interesting twist in the "selling skill points" idea... I'm not sure I could accept it.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -


School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6423 - 2016-01-20 21:11:21 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
What will happen of course is people will train their own alts and inject the points they gain through multi-training into their main, speeding up the training process in the extreme. If that's what you're after.. congrats.. Also say you have a really nasty character with a terrible rep.. he scammed a ton of people and stole a whole bank worth of ISK... Owner shaves off the skills and profits on an anonymous and easier to play character - thus, in theory, escaping some of the consequences his actions ...and in effect changing his character name.

It's a interesting twist in the "selling skill points" idea... I'm not sure I could accept it.

Yea that's another interesting concept that will happen. People will recycle their SP into new pilots... This is one way to get away from a killboard or bad rep that you no longer want to have.

One main complaint I have about this is they should make it fair to older high SP pilots. I don't see how this would hurt newer pilots and it would still allow older pilots to use the feature. 70 percent SP loss is just silly. If you're going to make the game "New player friendly" it's whatever but you don't need to be hostile towards older players... Even noobs become veterans at some point. I still remember my first Cormorant fitted with a mix of blasters, railguns, and autocannons...Cool
Tobias Lee
Star Mercs
#6424 - 2016-01-21 20:49:34 UTC
I have been playing EVE since 2003, I do not agree with this and will have 8 months subscription remaining in February, if this happens I want the rest of my game time refunded cause I will quit.
Captain IQ
Innocent Traders Ltd
#6425 - 2016-01-22 00:02:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain IQ
Even though I suspect this is a foregone conclusion, I'll just be putting my hands up to say "Don't Do It!!"
Vanessa Mangeiri
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6426 - 2016-01-22 08:09:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vanessa Mangeiri
If you remove all the SP for a skill is the skill removed?

Or does it still remain injected?

Those of us with OCD would like to know.
Tamreal Orti
Society of Misfits
What Could Possibly Go Wr0ng
#6427 - 2016-01-22 14:23:37 UTC
Hate the Idea of PAY to Win. So now you want to introduce an opportunity for players to BUY the SP's needed to be a success in the game. If you want to put something else on the market for players to buy with their ISK open the market to LP trading. I and many others always need more LP than we can generate alone, at least with LP trading the acquisition would not bypass TRAINING time that SHOULD be EARNED not bought.
Anabuki Tomoko
Caldari Strike Witches
#6428 - 2016-01-22 14:40:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabuki Tomoko
can't w8 for this.
as a new player, the ability to get 500k skill points fast is GREAT for trying out new ships and getting into the game (Manticore, Confessor, Jackdaw, Retriever, Covetor, maybe even a cov ops venture)

its a much needed boost for new players =D

so this way, instead of w8ing for 2 WEEKS to get a mining barge, or cov ops ship, or t3 destroyer. i can pay a bit and get it now.

which beats w8ing 2 WEEKS, during which time i get bored w8ing and wander off to other games because fk w8ing 2 weeks in the venture to get a mining barge =/ plus thats basically half the monthly sub fee.....doing nothing but w8ing to play the ship...

(no seriously. as much as i like Kestrel. w8ing 2 weeks to get manticore is lame. on top of that i cant use manticore effectively until i get cloaking thats another few days. oh and torpedos. so another few days....and so really adds up)

don't get me wrong. i can see why it would be bad for high skill point players. but for new players with under 10mill sp (or me with 1mill). its much needed
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6429 - 2016-01-22 21:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: voids
I have been watching this and I say it makes sense, even more so it also makes sense to have name changes , quite simple really, if you want to escape a bad char you already can by buying a new char You want to get more skill points you can again; buy a new char , so what does it really matter that someone swipes skill points from alt to a main or vice versa its gonna cost them either way , however I do feel that it is bad to penalize sp period, after all everyone still has to pay for injectors or the other part so penalizing sp that was hard earned over the years (with real life money and time) seems silly imho if you want to limit amount of sp limit it but don't take it away. make special injectors for levels that will only extract and supply 150k -500k
1-50m sp gets 500k injectors 50 to 100m sp gets 250k injectors and 100-200m gets 150k injectors.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
Infinite Pew
#6430 - 2016-01-22 23:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Opinion on pricing of the Skill Extractor:

This is an extract from some searching I did. Original poster was Tony Moor:

(Lowest Possible SP per hour)
"Previously the lowest possible sp/hr was 450. This was if you had 5 for both applicable attributes, no learning skills and no implants (although this ignores the fact that it was in fact possible to have an attribute below 5 on certain racial types if you had never remapped)

Now the minimum sp/hr is 1,530. This is with minimum attributes of 17 and no implants.

So, assuming no gaps in training, the minimum you will now earn in an average length month (30.417 days) is 1,116,900."

If this still holds true, I think the extractors should be priced at a decent $10-$15 bucks (USD). Pretty high, in my opinion, but it will average to about twice that amount in the market after the boom, i'd say. What people are basically paying for is the extractor cost and the accumulation of time, in terms of the 500k SP gained, required to fill a single extractor.

Median SP per hour was averaged to about 2000? I think this leaves plenty of room for fair trading in what they decide their time is worth, along with how much they think the extractor is worth after AURUM - which would fall to about 2000-2500 AUR. In the end, they will be nearly as expensive as what a PLEX is going for ATM. 2000 is not a bad number, as it would land on the mid-point AUR package as a sweet spot for acquiring two extractors.

So, about $10 bucks (USD) along with what equates to half a month of training pumped into an injector. That would round out easily to an ETC. I could live with that. And more importantly, noobs that would find this most appealing could live with that cost too. I doubt very much you will be seeing much P2W scenarios with this price point. It will be VERY expensive to reach 40-60mil SP, and a far shot to the moon in how expensive it will be to hit triple digit SP for a new character. So, I think many people are very much over exaggerating the P2W scenario. At most you will see people buying 3-4 of these to get a racial BS to V and top off lvl 4's with the remaining SP or something similar.

In time PLEX will probably double in value with this in the short term with people investing PLEX training time into SP vat-farming capsuleers with dual (future triple?) character training.

A huge ISK sink. The economy graphs will be wonderful to behold.
0bama Barack Hussein
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6431 - 2016-01-24 03:09:11 UTC
I started to think about this all more positive way since my last posts:

Actually can´t wait for new SP trade, I have dormant accounts with lots not needed skillpoints+chars, and almost ready chars for certain stuff not necessary to skill anymore, so I can just start SP farm and pay all my accounts by PLEX, and forgot grinding.

In fact, just start to finally have just fun again... Also more time for Elite and other games, then.
So you want to be a Hero
#6432 - 2016-01-24 11:05:35 UTC
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Looking back through bits of this thread and the ones at /r/eve, I get the impression that there’s this huge disconnect between the advocates and the opponents of this idea. I’ll confess that I genuinely don’t understand what is meant to be so attractive about skipping the training for a battleship—to take Rise’s example from his blog—and just buying a character. My sense is that “character” means no more than “chess piece” in that scenario. The way you swap a pawn out for a queen the moment the opportunity presents itself.

Pawns, of course, don't have histories. They don’t make mistakes and learn from them, they don’t have stories one could tell. They’re just pieces on a board. Weapons to be used against an opponent. If a weapon is not good enough, you swap it out for a better one. I’m trying to grasp what I find so depressing about this approach, and it has to do with this notion of treating a character merely as a tool that you buy or sell or dismantle for parts / skill points. History, story, narrative within the world we call New Eden becomes completely superfluous at that moment. The only goal is pawning the other guy and total control over how that can be made to happen. Doesn’t Rise say that that is meant to be “Eve’s core design”: “player control above all else”? If that is true, there should be no constraints at all. Instant god-mode for everyone. Surely that’s the logic of this position.

But I think Rise is wrong: “player control above all else” is not the core design of Eve. I don’t think anyone (apart from him, apparently) thinks this. The challenge of Eve lies in there not being total control, in there being barriers and hindrances that force you to take a different path from the one you would have taken at first glance if all roads had lain open. I see considerable value in that. It makes Eve into a world that can surprise you, rather than just another virtual arena where the instant gratification crowd can live out its monotonous domination fantasies. (Perhaps that was a little uncharitable. But I really don’t get it.)

Hilmar tells a story—a little too often, maybe—about a mining cruiser back in the day. You’ve probably heard this. He’s borrowed it from someone else in order to go mining and it gets blown up. He’s unhappy, because his character doesn’t have the ISK to replace it. And then he thinks, hey, I’m the CEO of CCP, I could just wave a magic wand and make a cruiser, right? But he doesn’t. He mines for a whole week to get the cash together to buy a new cruiser on the market. Why? Because short-cutting the process would have entailed the admission that none of it was real.

That was the original vision of New Eden. A world where you can’t just dev hack or buy your way out of your biography. Because it’s real.

People are going to disagree with this violently and I’m fine with that. This is just my take on it, and an attempt to clarify for myself a little better why I find the idea of buying and selling a character’s past so disheartening.

CCP Rise

nuff said Roll

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6433 - 2016-01-24 18:45:46 UTC
There is nothing good about this idea, pleas pull the plug on it CCP, before your devalue all the work your dedicated players have put into their toons over the past decade or so.

If you really must go ahead with this though, at least make the diminishing returns taper off into nothing at around 80 mill or something.

Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#6434 - 2016-01-25 17:08:38 UTC
i think i would pay to remap my own skills with no loss the the sp but i am not going to pump a load of monies into this game in its current state.

Joseph Guillotine
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6435 - 2016-01-29 19:49:56 UTC
This is just horrible bad ideal i don't support this at all lol Pirate
Jim Georage
#6436 - 2016-01-31 22:54:56 UTC
If CCP goes through with this, I will no longer play this game......
Absolutely the WORST idea i have heard yet Ugh
Sophia Electra
#6437 - 2016-01-31 22:57:16 UTC
Have to agree with people, I do not support this.
Captain IQ
Innocent Traders Ltd
#6438 - 2016-02-01 12:58:26 UTC
I think there's some amazingly insightful comments that are coming from the NO Camp, many I hadn't even considered and many I doubt that CCP have either.

On an emotional level and something I'm sure older players will recognise is that the easy transference of SP means that basically our old characters are nothing more than hulks carrying skills that can be easily stripped away, rather than quirky characters with a bit of this and a bit of that that somehow makes us feel like they're individuals and unique to us, it does a lot to take away how we will feel about them.

Our first characters are full of mistakes making them feel more human, like our own characteristics, like our disposable and newer alts, those perfectly trained characters in the Bazaar are all specific, perfect and manufactured and they have no history or blemishes with which many of our affections are based on, if we feel less about our characters then I am sure we will feel less about this game.
Trevier Bardou
Fondation Stellaire
#6439 - 2016-02-01 17:04:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Trevier Bardou
Ok, now as I'm aware about it, I wanna throw my hat into the ring aswell

I know, i paused the game for a longer period again (due to my personal time management), and started on Dec 4th with my 3 alts because I always loved the concept of this whole sandbox universe.
Why did I came back the 3rd time, after being some time "offline"?
Because of the charms Eve had in the past and because I'm convinced than Eve has a concept who can substain some more time
More than this, I thought it might be a good idea to talk to some real-live friends if they wanna start with eve. And, surprise, they started with eve on the 6th and 7th of Dec, having fun since then in a cool sandbox universe!

PLEASE considere: Eve is the only MMO were you have such a this long time motivation, fair to said other games have other things, but this makes Eve precious and unique, defferent of the other 1000th MMOs

If SP trading will be made posible this means:
- Pay to win!
- No one cares about any Alt decisions you made, as you can easily create a new account and transfer everything to the new account.
- Past of Eve Alts will be rewriten as players actions will be forgotten as the numbers of new Alts will emerge once and once again, creating tons of new accounts and old accounts will be deleted in order to free space for the next new alt.
- Players community will definitively descend, as you are not gonna met old pales ever again, motivation to play with good ingame friends will be about 0, as you will find you entire friendlist get distracted if they persist in eve.

So this will mean for us, being a player with some years of experience and 4 folks who started right away, a point of no return / discussion.
If Eve implements this Pay4Win feature, then we will move along and try some of the other new emerging MMOs

I know, than we are only 7 accounts, but considere than you will lose us (5 player / 7 Accounts) for 100% sure and dispite of what I readed on the first pages, there are many paople who think samehow!

If SP trading will get realeasd, well then we quit, and thats for now!

Hope you reconsidere the feedback of this 3xx pages and be aware of what you change in this game we all love so much!

Best regards

Alavaria Fera
#6440 - 2016-02-01 20:18:50 UTC
Trevier Bardou wrote:
I know, than we are only 7 accounts, but considere than you will lose us (5 player / 7 Accounts) for 100% sure and dispite of what I readed on the first pages, there are many paople who think samehow!

If SP trading will get realeasd, well then we quit, and thats for now!

Oh snap, I'll be checking to make sure you actually followed through, and thats for now!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?