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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Author
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#501 - 2016-01-19 11:56:41 UTC
Aerious wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Aroye wrote:
Daniela Doran wrote:
So CCP has decided to go on ahead and kill Eve huh? Mark my words CCP, this game's REAL decline starts here!

I don't think it will make any difference in the long run because extractors will probably cost way to much to be worth it. Something like a PLEX for a 7-8 days worth of SP. 400K sp is almost nothing in EVE. Some newbies will fall for it and wast money before they realize that it doesn't help.


The point is that this is a first step to p2w, and if people agree to it (by just passively accepting it even though they're not happy about the whole thing) then the next step will be a little bit further. And then a little bit more, and more and more. So if one's not happy with this whole thing then by simply condoning it you perpetuate it.

Me personally I draw the line here, not being dramatic about it but at some point you have to simply accept that the product you've been using for years is turning into something you don't want, and you decide to move on. Atm I'm consolidating my assets and then I'll delete my chars. And no you can't have my stuff, it'll be given to other folks.


There's no point threatning to leave, most of the people here raging and saying they will leave, will not, CCP know this after the monocle-crap a few years ago, hundreds threatend to leave, most are still here.

I as you am totally against this idea, but since there is a dev blog about it, i think it will be implemented, but im hoping CCP™ sees sense and cap it at a lower SP value so it's only of use by newer players and make it so there is a limit to the amount of SP that can be injected per year.



What you're doing right now is justifying it by adding some variables to it going "well if CCP crosses THAT line then surely, I'll go do something about it". I don't, this is a massive turning point in EVE and simply a bridge too far. I'm not interested in the result of that nor the changes leading to that.
Dracnys
#502 - 2016-01-19 11:56:51 UTC


1. Buying SP injectors is not the same as trading on the character bazaar. While both buying SP injectors and buying characters are a way to skip ahead in the wait for SP, there are major differences. These are that 1) buying a character requires a huge investment, whereas buying SP injectors can be done in small steps, 2) a bought character comes with a fixed name and reputation, which many potential buyers dislike, 3) the process of buying a character is complicated for a new player. All in all, these differences mean that SP injectors are more useable and will be used by more players than the character bazaar.

2. SP injectors change the game for new players (<3 months) in a huge way and give the impression that EVE is P2W. In the early days of a new player, every single SP makes a difference. An injection of 500k SP give him access to a new shipclass, or a new activity in industry or exploration. A new player will also not have enough ISK to be able to afford an SP injection. It’s hard to predict the final price, but it will almost certainly be more than 100m. This means that a new player has three options: 1) have a friend ingame who gives him SP injectors 2) buy PLEX with real money and 3) wait for the SP to come. Option 3 sounds like terrible gameplay and gives the impression that EVE is pay to win. Before SP injectors, a new player may have heard of the character bazaar, but due to the extreme amounts of ISK needed (from his perspective) it was never an option.

3. For intermediate players (>3 months but less than 12 months) SP injectors focus their attention on ISK. At that age SP is of course still extremely important. At a few months into EVE, intermediate players start to gain access to decently profitable ISK farming. With their attention focused on their SP count, they are incentivized to spend all their playtime farming. There’s a huge risk that they will not take the time to explore PVP, join a corporation or generally wander around the universe, trying new things. And that is where many will eventually quit because they perceive EVE as a grinding game.

4. On the other hand, new players now have a way of taking control of their SP development. Waiting can be very frustrating. If I tell a friend that it will take at least a few months until he can play a meaningful role in PVP, he will not join the game. Now I can offer to give him a few boosts, or point to profitable activities ingame.

5. Selling SP extractors gives CCP another way of making money. This is actually a good thing! As long as the company is healthy, EVE will continue to be developed. It’s just a question of whether selling SP extractors is the least painful way the playerbase can pay CCP.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#503 - 2016-01-19 12:01:52 UTC
Dracnys wrote:
If I tell a friend that it will take at least a few months until he can play a meaningful role in PVP, he will not join the game.


Then you lied to him.
Nakaara Adahsa
Deep Void Enterprises
#504 - 2016-01-19 12:09:35 UTC
I continue to believe that this is an extraordinarily bad idea and will have negative consequences for the game. It is indeed a pay-to-win "feature".

A fair number of players are likely to create farms of alts for the sole purpose of skill-point farming, and I think this is exactly what CCP wants. More accounts, more alts = more money.

This is not likely to encourage more players to join the game. People don't decide to play games based on whether or not they can rapidly catch up with their friends' skill point levels. They decide to play a game because they enjoy it. There is enough flexibility in the game as-is for new players to join their friends in most aspects of gameplay. In the few areas where there may be exclusion for a while, it is definitely temporary and they will need that time to learn how to play the game anyway.

If CCP proceeds with the horribly bad decision to add this feature, you can expect gankers to start shaking down players for skill points. Miners, haulers, and small corps are likely to see increased harassment. This time, however, it won't just be ISK you'll be asked to pay but rather the life's blood of your characters: skill points.

If the latter happens, that seems pretty unhealthy for the game aside from just the sleaziness of skill-point farming. A lot of newbies are already turned-off by EVE due to the current level of ganking activity in highsec. I don't see how a ganking-for-skill-points game environment will help attract new players.

Maybe CCP already understands these risks and this feature is being added solely as a scheme to milk more money out of the existing player base. It may do that to some degree, but I think it is likely to alienate more than a few players.
Dibz
Doomheim
#505 - 2016-01-19 12:12:04 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Characters bought in the bazaar come with a name, a history and choices in regards to skill training. You agree to buying that character then you agree to the whole package so changing ownership of that character does not change the basic "choices have consequences" core concept of EVE. The character remains as is.

The new system allows you to syphon SP from any character with any background and any training choices and then redistribute that as you please. None of the choices that character made is retained, it throws the basic concept of EVE overboard. So a) it's so close to P2W it's not even funny and b) it completely fucks with EVE's main concept.

And then a clown PVPer turned "balancing expert", turned clown dev allowed it to happen.


What am I 'winning' when I redistribute SP from one character to another? Remember that winning implies someone else is losing as a direct consequence of my actions.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#506 - 2016-01-19 12:13:32 UTC
Dibz wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Characters bought in the bazaar come with a name, a history and choices in regards to skill training. You agree to buying that character then you agree to the whole package so changing ownership of that character does not change the basic "choices have consequences" core concept of EVE. The character remains as is.

The new system allows you to syphon SP from any character with any background and any training choices and then redistribute that as you please. None of the choices that character made is retained, it throws the basic concept of EVE overboard. So a) it's so close to P2W it's not even funny and b) it completely fucks with EVE's main concept.

And then a clown PVPer turned "balancing expert", turned clown dev allowed it to happen.


What am I 'winning' when I redistribute SP from one character to another? Remember that winning implies someone else is losing as a direct consequence of my actions.


Your logic (...) is dumb as hell, but thanks for playing.
Zeddrick Anthar
Golden Orb Ate My Grandma
#507 - 2016-01-19 12:14:57 UTC
Roughly how much AUR will the new skill extractor thing cost?
Rizz Razz
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#508 - 2016-01-19 12:18:02 UTC
Don't forget the impact on the economy! If i can maintain an account just by selling the SPs, i get a non-skiller account for free ... so why i shouldn't make an additionally mining account ... every single m3 Veldspar is profit ...

So you sell a company! Create an User-Bubble and max the profit of one good year (at cost of alle the following years) ... poor investor :)
Dibz
Doomheim
#509 - 2016-01-19 12:21:06 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Dibz wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Characters bought in the bazaar come with a name, a history and choices in regards to skill training. You agree to buying that character then you agree to the whole package so changing ownership of that character does not change the basic "choices have consequences" core concept of EVE. The character remains as is.

The new system allows you to syphon SP from any character with any background and any training choices and then redistribute that as you please. None of the choices that character made is retained, it throws the basic concept of EVE overboard. So a) it's so close to P2W it's not even funny and b) it completely fucks with EVE's main concept.

And then a clown PVPer turned "balancing expert", turned clown dev allowed it to happen.


What am I 'winning' when I redistribute SP from one character to another? Remember that winning implies someone else is losing as a direct consequence of my actions.


Your logic (...) is dumb as hell, but thanks for playing.


Answer the question. What am I winning? And how is another player being put at a disadvantage?
Aerious
Faceless Heavy industry
Cyno.Up
#510 - 2016-01-19 12:21:22 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:

What you're doing right now is justifying it by adding some variables to it going "well if CCP crosses THAT line then surely, I'll go do something about it". I don't, this is a massive turning point in EVE and simply a bridge too far. I'm not interested in the result of that nor the changes leading to that.


Well, i don't see many people blowing up monuments in Jita over this, so i guess it's been accepted by the masses.

"They worried we would eventually offer not just vanity items, but ones that would give the Haves an unfair advantage over the Have-Nots."

Turelus
Utassi Security
#511 - 2016-01-19 12:23:35 UTC
Not really sure how this will help new players simply because they'll lack the funds to use it.

As others have said it's more likely going to be used for alts of players with well established income within the game. Personally I have an alt account which the character is trained in all it needs to be, might as well make an SP siphon character to get more SP/Month on my main.

This all comes down to the cost of the injectors I guess.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#512 - 2016-01-19 12:25:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
Aerious wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:

What you're doing right now is justifying it by adding some variables to it going "well if CCP crosses THAT line then surely, I'll go do something about it". I don't, this is a massive turning point in EVE and simply a bridge too far. I'm not interested in the result of that nor the changes leading to that.


Well, i don't see many people blowing up monuments in Jita over this, so i guess it's been accepted by the masses.


You see it as a good thing that the masses of players who have spoken against this can't even be bothered to protest? I see it as a sign that the existing community are losing the will to care. That is most definitely not a good thing.
Pandora Bokks
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
Externa Group
#513 - 2016-01-19 12:25:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Pandora Bokks
Tristan Agion wrote:
[quote=Damjan Fox]The skill injectors can be bought in the New Eden Store with Aurum. PLEX can be converted to Aurum. That's why.


Actually, the skill extractors have to be bought with AUR. The injectors are player made by using a skill extractor to convert SP into an injector.

So demand for extractors will push AUR demand. As AUR can be bought with ISK, there should be no direct impact on PLEX prices. If the business model is working, PLEX prices should rather go down as more people shall buy PLEX with RL money in order to convert into ISK and buy injectors. This does of course not consider all the other factors that influence PLEX prices - so my prediction is that PLEX will decrease, increase or stay stable.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#514 - 2016-01-19 12:34:23 UTC
Pandora Bokks wrote:
Tristan Agion wrote:
[quote=Damjan Fox]The skill injectors can be bought in the New Eden Store with Aurum. PLEX can be converted to Aurum. That's why.


Actually, the skill extractors have to be bought with AUR. The injectors are player made by using a skill extractor to convert SP into an injector.

So demand for extractors will push AUR demand. As AUR can be bought with ISK, there should be no direct impact on PLEX prices. If the business model is working, PLEX prices should rather go down as more people shall buy PLEX with RL money in order to convert into ISK and buy injectors. This does of course not consider all the other factors that influence PLEX prices - so my prediction is that PLEX will decrease, increase or stay stable.


What happened to PLEX last time they introduced something into the AUR store? I thought prices went up?
Zeddrick Anthar
Golden Orb Ate My Grandma
#515 - 2016-01-19 12:39:56 UTC
Pandora Bokks wrote:
Tristan Agion wrote:
[quote=Damjan Fox]The skill injectors can be bought in the New Eden Store with Aurum. PLEX can be converted to Aurum. That's why.


Actually, the skill extractors have to be bought with AUR. The injectors are player made by using a skill extractor to convert SP into an injector.

So demand for extractors will push AUR demand. As AUR can be bought with ISK, there should be no direct impact on PLEX prices. If the business model is working, PLEX prices should rather go down as more people shall buy PLEX with RL money in order to convert into ISK and buy injectors. This does of course not consider all the other factors that influence PLEX prices - so my prediction is that PLEX will decrease, increase or stay stable.


Right now the supply of Aurum on the market is tiny compared with the PLEX supply. If there's any demand for extractors at all (and lets face it there will be because a ton of people want rid of mining 5 for starters ...) then pretty much instantly people will have to switch to buying PLEX and converting them to Aurum. So it's very unlikely this will have no effect on PLEX prices.

Whether it gets compensated by people effectively buying skills for RL money remains to be seen. That might well happen. Or people might just rat/mine/whatever more to make more ISK and spend that on skills. But this feature doesn't take any ISK out of the game -- it just moves from person to person. It does take Aurum out of the game, meaning that it will remove PLEX from the game too and that certainly ought to make the price of it go up.

Z.


Pandora Bokks
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
Externa Group
#516 - 2016-01-19 12:42:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Pandora Bokks
Zeddrick Anthar wrote:

... people will have to switch to buying PLEX and converting them to Aurum ...



How do you convert PLEX into AUR?
Zeddrick Anthar
Golden Orb Ate My Grandma
#517 - 2016-01-19 12:45:34 UTC
Pandora Bokks wrote:
Right now the supply of Aurum on the market is tiny compared with the PLEX supply. If there's any demand for extractors at all (and lets face it there will be because a ton of people want rid of mining 5 for starters ...) then pretty much instantly people will have to switch to buying PLEX and converting them to Aurum. So it's very unlikely this will have no effect on PLEX prices.

Whether it gets compensated by people effectively buying skills for RL money remains to be seen. That might well happen. Or people might just rat/mine/whatever more to make more ISK and spend that on skills. But this feature doesn't take any ISK out of the game -- it just moves from person to person. It does take Aurum out of the game, meaning that it will remove PLEX from the game too and that certainly ought to make the price of it go up.

Z.




How do you convert PLEX into AUR?[/quote]

I don't really deal with Aur so I've never tried but I believe you can convert a single PLEX into 3500 AUR somehow? That was certainly what they said when PLEX was added and I've heard it repeated over the years.

Z.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#518 - 2016-01-19 12:46:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Pandora Bokks wrote:
How do you convert PLEX into AUR?


Market, Aurum tokens.

This is also why the "logic" some people use about how it can't be converted (and thus couldn't be used in rmt) are mistaken, either because they don't know how it works or because they're just doing their PR shill talks.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#519 - 2016-01-19 12:51:02 UTC
Yes, you can convert Plex into 3500 aurum (right click option)

Or you can buy Aurum directly with RL money ( https://secure.eveonline.com/AurStore/ , generally a better deal than going through plex)

And in case anyone is looking for my reaction:

I wasn't a fan when this was first brought to the CSM. I still have concerns over it, but I've been talking with some of the proponents (players) for the idea, and what they're saying has some merit. My main concern stems from the "I have to pay how much to catch up?" reaction it may cause in some new players.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Pandora Bokks
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
Externa Group
#520 - 2016-01-19 12:53:15 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Pandora Bokks wrote:
How do you convert PLEX into AUR?


Market, Aurum tokens.

This is also why the "logic" some people use about how it can't be converted (and thus couldn't be used in rmt) are mistaken, either because they don't know how it works or because they're just doing their PR shill talks.


Actually this I knew. What I did not know, is that there is a direct conversion method as well (1 PLEX into 3,500 AUR) .
You learn something new every day even after years of playing.