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Dev blog: Skill trading in New Eden

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Arithron
107th Suicide Kings
#381 - 2016-01-19 00:29:03 UTC
Mr Grape Drink[/quote wrote:



You're all bad at math. To get to 500M Sp from 80M SP would take 420M SP or 420,000,000 SP /150,000 per injector = 2800 Injectors. The amount of SP wiped from the game would be 500,000 - 150,000 = 350,000. 350,000 * 2800 injectors = 980M SP .

Using the random pulled from ass number of 300M each, with 840B you can get from 80-500M SP.

Plex go for about 1.2 bil each. Thats 700 plex to do this if paid entirely in plex. Thats about $10,500 to max from 80-500M SP. Now if we assume 300M each, that means you could get 4x extractors per plex with 0 profit. I don't see that happening, but lets roll with that. $10,500/4 = $2625 to buy all the extractors needed. So with $13,125 and the equivalent of 2 perfect characters worth of SP removed from the game you could infact perfect a character. Assuming 300M for each injector.


At about 1,944,000 SP per month (2700 SP/Hr) with perfect remap and implants and 1.2B per month of game time. You're looking at about 617 ISK/SP or 308M per 500k SP. Which after the cost of the extractor would probably put it between 400 and 500 mil per injector.

At 450 mil each its up to 1.26Trillion Isk or 1050 Plex or $15,700 + $3925 = $19,625

Practical? No. Possible? Certainly.

End note. I think we need to add another upper tier somewhere!



Okay, lets accept I could implant/remap and generate 1.9 mil SP per month. There is no incentive, at 300 mil an injector, for me to extract these at all. I'll generate a little more than the current cost of a PLEX (EXPECT THESE TO RISE- INVEST NOW!), but still have the cost of the aurum etc (so I might as well buy PLEX and sell into market, instead of making injectors). In short, to make this cost effective the price will be significantly higher. If it stayed at 300 mil an injector or thereabouts, we won't see clever SP farmers (just dumb ones that can't do maths).

Of course, if the cost of the injectors gets to a certain point, expect to see characters purchased from the Character bazaar for the express purpose of SP milking and selling. EXPECT TO SEE THE PRICE OF CHARACTERS increase also.
Faith Xavier
Eclipse Mariner
#382 - 2016-01-19 00:35:38 UTC
Large alliances will buy these up left and right, inflating the price and accumulating the most valuable resource in EVE: SP. Will those alliances then dump all that SP on their new recruits, who they don't know very well and who may or may not stick around? Or will they dump the SP on the alts of their senior members instead? I'd bet on the latter.

Perhaps I underestimate the market supply, but I believe these will be in low supply and high demand (read: SUPER EXPENSIVE), making them inaccessible to new players without a credit card. The power blocs will absorb most of the SP that makes it to the market while CCP makes a bit of cash. Those newbros who don't want to shell out money for PLEX (i.e. most of them) will continue training skills at the normal pace, and will be largely unaffected.

CCP makes money, big alliances get a tad stronger, and the new players (who this was supposedly going to help) don't see the change at all.

NOTE: I'm betting these Skill Injectors will be so expensive that the character bazaar will remain more efficient in terms of SP per dollar spent (unless they are doing away with the bazaar?). That will make the bazaar the better option for new players who want to skip the waiting, while Skill Injection is used by older players to reassign a few unwanted skills (or to add more, if they can afford it), or to bolster their alts.
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings
#383 - 2016-01-19 00:38:02 UTC
Also, implement no benefit at all (ie, no SP gained for injecting) for characters with more than 80 mil SP. We don't need it.

My paltry 180+ mil SP has only taken me 10 years to gather together....all the effort and planning seems like a little waste of time now (like the training of learning skills!). However, this has been a passive benefit of playing after I learnt how to play EVE. I am going to start producing ships again, as I see the potential for a lot of inexperienced players in nice shinies :)

This change will make us older players richer P

Thanks CCP!
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#384 - 2016-01-19 00:39:07 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
I do wonder if the majority of the people who are complaining are also the people who are butt-hurt that their ''character bazaar'' character farming setup is going to be obsolete after this change.

or the butthurt high sp people who see newbies being able to train faster than ever could due to alliance funded newbie sp starter gifts.

''Oh noess the noobs are going to be able to fly stuff and enjoy the game rather than wait 2 months sp grinding like i had to back in the day.''

Just be wary CCP the complainers may actually not be legit.

Looking forward to this change ! As are the majority of people I fly with.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings
#385 - 2016-01-19 00:39:31 UTC
Faith Xavier wrote:
Large alliances will buy these up left and right, inflating the price and accumulating the most valuable resource in EVE: SP. Will those alliances then dump all that SP on their new recruits, who they don't know very well and who may or may not stick around? Or will they dump the SP on the alts of their senior members instead? I'd bet on the latter.

Perhaps I underestimate the market supply, but I believe these will be in low supply and high demand (read: SUPER EXPENSIVE), making them inaccessible to new players without a credit card. The power blocs will absorb most of the SP that makes it to the market while CCP makes a bit of cash. Those newbros who don't want to shell out money for PLEX (i.e. most of them) will continue training skills at the normal pace, and will be largely unaffected.

CCP makes money, big alliances get a tad stronger, and the new players (who this was supposedly going to help) don't see the change at all.

NOTE: I'm betting these Skill Injectors will be so expensive that the character bazaar will remain more efficient in terms of SP per dollar spent (unless they are doing away with the bazaar?). That will make the bazaar the better option for new players who want to skip the waiting, while Skill Injection is used by older players to reassign a few unwanted skills (or to add more, if they can afford it), or to bolster their alts.


No it won't...the characters will inflate in price, otherwise you could buy a cheap character on bazaar and extract all SP and sell for profit :)
Faith Xavier
Eclipse Mariner
#386 - 2016-01-19 00:45:51 UTC
Arithron wrote:
Faith Xavier wrote:
Large alliances will buy these up left and right, inflating the price and accumulating the most valuable resource in EVE: SP. Will those alliances then dump all that SP on their new recruits, who they don't know very well and who may or may not stick around? Or will they dump the SP on the alts of their senior members instead? I'd bet on the latter.

Perhaps I underestimate the market supply, but I believe these will be in low supply and high demand (read: SUPER EXPENSIVE), making them inaccessible to new players without a credit card. The power blocs will absorb most of the SP that makes it to the market while CCP makes a bit of cash. Those newbros who don't want to shell out money for PLEX (i.e. most of them) will continue training skills at the normal pace, and will be largely unaffected.

CCP makes money, big alliances get a tad stronger, and the new players (who this was supposedly going to help) don't see the change at all.

NOTE: I'm betting these Skill Injectors will be so expensive that the character bazaar will remain more efficient in terms of SP per dollar spent (unless they are doing away with the bazaar?). That will make the bazaar the better option for new players who want to skip the waiting, while Skill Injection is used by older players to reassign a few unwanted skills (or to add more, if they can afford it), or to bolster their alts.


No it won't...the characters will inflate in price, otherwise you could buy a cheap character on bazaar and extract all SP and sell for profit :)


Ah good point, so the two will normalize.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#387 - 2016-01-19 00:48:28 UTC
Rather than delete the skills option how would the OCD folks feel about a button that say' Do not show skills at 0'?

Then your sheet would be nice and clean but nothing would be removed.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings
#388 - 2016-01-19 00:49:19 UTC
Yeah- expect to see PLEX and Character price hikes. Buy up injectors when markets flooded and hold for profits later P

If you are an older character with iskies, you'll be making multiple 10's of bils for little effort.
Tamazaki
Doomheim
#389 - 2016-01-19 00:51:57 UTC
Arkady Romanov wrote:
Now for your next trick; price the extractors appropriately so that you have a genuine micro transaction that will be used and enjoyed, rather than a hilariously overpriced albatross that nobody except the idiotic or rich will use.


Yes!
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings
#390 - 2016-01-19 00:52:41 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Rather than delete the skills option how would the OCD folks feel about a button that say' Do not show skills at 0'?

Then your sheet would be nice and clean but nothing would be removed.

m



Total waste of time and effort. Keep skills at 0 to remind players that a) they were once (or still are) a dickwad for training it in the first place and b) they are a dickwad for selling SP Roll
Arithron
107th Suicide Kings
#391 - 2016-01-19 01:15:05 UTC
Seriously, there should be no SP gain from injectors for 80mil+ SP

If you can't build a character that is a good pilot for 80mil+ SP, you shouldn't be playing.


I expect all diehard EVE players that have 80mil+ SP to agree with this idea, as they all play for the love of the game, as opposed to P2W right?

Or are there not many of us left with a sense of fair play? Ugh
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#392 - 2016-01-19 01:15:54 UTC
Even if it has already been suggested ...

CCPLEASE LET US DELETE SKILLS!

I don't want a skillbook refund. Just let me delete the dang skills.
Charlie Corday
Doomheim
#393 - 2016-01-19 01:21:35 UTC
Pay to Win - another nail in Eve's coffin. Cry
Mance Sevrin
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#394 - 2016-01-19 01:22:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mance Sevrin
..
Rimstalker
Aesirian Industry and Mining
#395 - 2016-01-19 01:30:43 UTC
Man, how about instead of trying to nailed down a lot of stupid ideas on how to make this place more attractive, you focus more on making it a better game; something you are not really doing right now?

Witness, the more you try and make this game more appealing to a bunch of people who aren't here, the fewer people that actually show up. I would have thought you would have realized this at this point but apparently not.

Why don't you spend a couple of updates on fixing problems and glitches in your current system and get that nailed down and then spend some time and effort on adding new things.

Next, if you want to actually improve this place, why dont you listen to the CSM...bwahahahaha...I am just kidding so lets get to something more realistic; why don't you take a good look at some of the incredibly good ideas that many many many people have had over the years and sent in to you. You don't need to toss something out there and then see what people say, you should have boxes and folders of that already.

Of course this may go the way of ...walking around stations!...or any number of other items that we have heard of over the years.

Get a grip on reality and go find my slaves...I spilled some Quafe here and the strippers are late.
BAWBAG74
Doomheim
#396 - 2016-01-19 01:42:04 UTC
I am not in agreement with MOST of this, and I'll explain below:

If CCP want to implement skill trading it should be for new players/ low skill point characters only to get them into the game. Not to have some rich character buy a **** ton of injectors to become even more elite.

The people who have put years into training, and countless $ on subscriptions should have some protection from people swooping an buying something, that until this discussion was "priceless" and many of you will say "well its not priceless as character trading exists" but your not seeing the bigger picture. Someone else put the time and $ into that character, AND those skills are separated for that character only....not added to you own.

I agree at this stage of the game it is hard to entice new players to play, so maybe instead of outlining diminishing returns for older/higher sp players, just do away with that part totally. OR put in some limit per year (like remapping limitations) where people with say over 100 mil sp's, they can only add so many sp's per year and then effectively max out, and cant use any until a certain date.

some cap needs to be put into place somehow that allows the newer playing to get to a certain point faster, if they are willing to spend the isk or $$ I guess, but stop the super rich form become skill point gods.

I don't what else it is about this, but the thought of just insta training a skill just takes away from the game. getting skills to 5 is something you wait for, and are proud of when the time comes, knowing you've "done the time" waiting for it. I think with this suggestion the game will go downhill rather fast

Just my 2 cents
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#397 - 2016-01-19 01:43:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Mike Azariah wrote:
Rather than delete the skills option how would the OCD folks feel about a button that say' Do not show skills at 0'?

Then your sheet would be nice and clean but nothing would be removed.

m

No thanks. Us OCD folks would know it is there, and it would still drive us nuts.

It is kind of like hanging a picture to hide a hole in a wall, or moving furniture to hide stains on a rug.

Plus it would still appear in the API.

Example: Confused Amarr Starship Engineering with Amarr Engineering Systems *cries* I'd even pay $20 to fix that; it bugs me that much.
MidnightWyvern
Fukamichi Corporation
SAYR Galactic
#398 - 2016-01-19 01:46:28 UTC  |  Edited by: MidnightWyvern
Querns wrote:
ViolentDesire wrote:

Total joke and unforgivable. What is claimed is essentially impossible to conclude. The overwhelming majority other than maybe goons + pets and trolls saw this as a clearly destructive change and were against it. I don't think I've ever seen anything so untrue in relation to Eve. The amount of confirmation bias and dishonesty required to make this claim is astounding.

The only thing that's destructive about this change is the death of SP leaderboard onanism. Fortunately, such masturbatory pursuits, like real masturbation, are completely meaningless.

This is a god-tier post. Holy ****.

As to the TSPs, I initially had a knee-jerk freakout at the first DevBlog, but after I sat down and thought about it for a while this isn't really different from the Character Bazaar we have now.

All the arguments being made about Pay-to-Win microtransactions are the same arguments that could be made about the Character Bazaar, and I have literally never seen a single player give a **** about that.

If anything this means that you can start a new character in EVE and save up for TSPs to get a faster start instead of feeling like you have to go to the Character Bazaar to get a new character.

As someone who has played EVE for over 7 years, I have to wonder whether the people complaining about this are legitimately concerned about the game, or just mad because they won't be able to wag their giant SP e-peen in the faces of everyone in the game anymore?

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)
Shinshi Kuroi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#399 - 2016-01-19 02:01:30 UTC
This seems like a great idea, but I'm not sure I agree with the suggested mechanics and execution plan.

I don't think there should be diminished returns at all for skill injectors.

-BUT-

I believe that a reactivation and fatigue effect - like jump reactivation and fatigue with capitals and jump bridges - might be a way to keep the sp trading from getting too out of hand. A cool down timer based off the number of skill points the character using the injector has to calculate how long until they can use another skill injector - low sp characters might only have to wait minutes or hours whereas someone who has been training for years has to wait a few days, a week, with an eventual maximum they can reach. In this way you allow the low skill pilots the ability to make skill point leaps but also gives them time to go out and use those new skills before dumping into more. It also keeps high skill point, isk rich players from 'destroying' skill points, gobbling up all the skills points themselves, or from suddenly flooding the game with market/industry alts over night - but they can still get some nice chunks of time cut off some of those epic level 5 skills which take months to complete.

I'd think a similar system could work for the skill extractors, except in this case perhaps using a flat recycle timer akin to the one we use for jump clones.

With this kind of system CCP could even expand the Neural Enhancement Skills to reduce the fatigue effects slightly - again, like jump clones - or even make it necessary to have certain skills to implant specific implants to even be able to inject or extract skills.
MidnightWyvern
Fukamichi Corporation
SAYR Galactic
#400 - 2016-01-19 02:10:51 UTC
Shinshi Kuroi wrote:
This seems like a great idea, but I'm not sure I agree with the suggested mechanics and execution plan.

I don't think there should be diminished returns at all for skill injectors.

-BUT-

I believe that a reactivation and fatigue effect - like jump reactivation and fatigue with capitals and jump bridges - might be a way to keep the sp trading from getting too out of hand. A cool down timer based off the number of skill points the character using the injector has to calculate how long until they can use another skill injector - low sp characters might only have to wait minutes or hours whereas someone who has been training for years has to wait a few days, a week, with an eventual maximum they can reach. In this way you allow the low skill pilots the ability to make skill point leaps but also gives them time to go out and use those new skills before dumping into more. It also keeps high skill point, isk rich players from 'destroying' skill points, gobbling up all the skills points themselves, or from suddenly flooding the game with market/industry alts over night - but they can still get some nice chunks of time cut off some of those epic level 5 skills which take months to complete.

I'd think a similar system could work for the skill extractors, except in this case perhaps using a flat recycle timer akin to the one we use for jump clones.

With this kind of system CCP could even expand the Neural Enhancement Skills to reduce the fatigue effects slightly - again, like jump clones - or even make it necessary to have certain skills to implant specific implants to even be able to inject or extract skills.

Huh...that's an interesting idea.

I mean I do see where some of the people are coming from on the idea of the diminishing returns. If they are completely unattractive to high-SP players, the supply of them will be consistently low and the price will be astronomical.

That WOULD mean you could make a lot of money off of them but since most of the newer players these things are meant for wouldn't be able to afford them, you end up with a gimmick that doesn't get used.

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)