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More Group PvE or Encouraging New Player Group PvE

Author
Taggerung Viliana
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-01-02 03:30:56 UTC
Hey guys,

So I figured I'd post something here since I saw a comment thread on another forum that I thought I should at least be thrown out there.

I'd love to see PvE sites or some kind of mechanic that encourages small-group PvE similar to how some WH groups run C3-C5 sites. While we didn't run them very often due to activity and member numbers, when I was in a WH group some of the most fun I had outside of PvP fleets (those that actually ended up fighting instead of fighting rep mechanics anyway...) was when I was in a group of 7-15 people running C3 or C5 sites.

I know we've got Incursions, but I haven't had any good experiences with them and they don't seem widespread enough to really contribute to what new or mid-tier players can do as a group. That could just be my ignorance on the subject though.

I had so much fun because those sites required us to pay attention since the Drifters hit so hard, but we weren't dialed in the whole time. We could chat about mechanics or the game while still enjoying ourselves. The sites also had a nice payout to make the time investment worth it.

I don't really have thoughts on how exactly that stuff should work, but I know from working in software that the kind of customer feedback on feature requests that helps the most is when someone tells you what they want to accomplish rather than exactly what they want so hopefully I've provided that kind of good feedback.

Tailoring that content into new player specific PvE groups would also be cool, although I don't quite know how that would be accomplished in high or low-sec compared to my time in null.

Thanks!
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#2 - 2016-01-02 04:19:07 UTC
Incursion do have something for small group (3-5 people) but most people feel it is undervalued for its difficult

maybe I recommend make scout site (for small group) much more easier to manage as entry level into Incursion.
Iain Cariaba
#3 - 2016-01-02 07:29:41 UTC
For vets: Running existing PvE as a group gets it done much faster, allowing you to make more isk. Just because it can be done solo does not mean it has to be done solo.

For newbies: Running existing PvE as a group allows them to tackle harder sites, thus making more isk.

For OP: We don't need new content for group PvE. You just need to lose the mindset that PvE is a solo activity unless specifically designed to be group ran.
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2016-01-02 12:22:44 UTC
Maybe this is what level 5 missions should become, since nowadays nobody ever runs them.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#5 - 2016-01-02 13:49:29 UTC
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
Maybe this is what level 5 missions should become, since nowadays nobody ever runs them.


A what? Big smile

I did one once a long time ago. Was challening, I give you that and I was in lowsec. Bad thing was I only got to shoot Gallente, so no bounties for me Sad
Could be of here but when the level 5's came out and level 4's got nerfed (whyyyyyyy???????) it was supposed to be a group activity, not an "I yolo my sooper-dooper here"-ish activity.



7-15 for a c3 site that is over when you are done alinging your tengu? For a c5 I believe that to be more accurate at least for the sake of the numbers you bring.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#6 - 2016-01-02 14:31:56 UTC
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
Maybe this is what level 5 missions should become, since nowadays nobody ever runs them.


Is this true? I have seen many people claim the contrary.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#7 - 2016-01-02 18:03:30 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
Maybe this is what level 5 missions should become, since nowadays nobody ever runs them.


Is this true? I have seen many people claim the contrary.

People do run them and people do run them with with others.

The common tactic is to use PvP tactics (and semi-PvP fits) and blitz them before anyone notices you are doing them. Doing five missions like this can net 10 people a pretty penny in LP.
Torrent Talon
Hierarch Apotheosis Consortium
#8 - 2016-01-02 19:19:54 UTC
This is a sandbox game, you want group PvE create a Corp based on running PvE
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2016-01-03 00:05:55 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
For vets: Running existing PvE as a group gets it done much faster, allowing you to make more isk. Just because it can be done solo does not mean it has to be done solo.

For newbies: Running existing PvE as a group allows them to tackle harder sites, thus making more isk.

For OP: We don't need new content for group PvE. You just need to lose the mindset that PvE is a solo activity unless specifically designed to be group ran.


Pretty much this.

For example, in the AFK cloaking thread the complaint is, "One guy thwarts the efforts of dozens of players." My standard response is to rat in a group. Fit more for PvP and 5-6 guys in ishtars will not be bothered by one guy (let alone one guy who is most likely AFK). Even if he has a cyno he better bring in a pretty sizeable gang to deal with 3,000-4,200 in DPS. So, put on your big boy pants, change the fit on the ratting ishtar around a bit, and undock and make lots of ISK.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2016-01-03 00:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
ShahFluffers wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
Maybe this is what level 5 missions should become, since nowadays nobody ever runs them.


Is this true? I have seen many people claim the contrary.

People do run them and people do run them with with others.

The common tactic is to use PvP tactics (and semi-PvP fits) and blitz them before anyone notices you are doing them. Doing five missions like this can net 10 people a pretty penny in LP.


Yep, did this a few years back, it was a corp thing.

After one mission I had a huge increase in my Minmatar LP...I was shocked. Everyone else on comms who had been running them before laughed at my reaction....ahhhh the good ol' days.

Oh, and that is where the money is in these missions, the bounties, IIRC, sucked, but damn the LP....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#11 - 2016-01-03 01:17:40 UTC
Besides where PvE could do with a general touch up, what you seek can be achieved by running sites or missions in low or null or you can go into wormholes from hi-sec. Or just running level 4s in cruisers and frigs with logi.

The advantage of numbers is that you can run things super quick in dangerous space and/or deter small gang PvP'ers.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#12 - 2016-01-03 05:54:06 UTC
unidenify wrote:
Incursion do have something for small group (3-5 people) but most people feel it is undervalued for its difficult

maybe I recommend make scout site (for small group) much more easier to manage as entry level into Incursion.


Even though scouts were buffed, to run them effectively you are looking at needing a full group of marauders. Unless you and your group are dead set on running scouts, you are pretty much better off just running with a light vanguard group. You just need your 2 logi, ideally 1 vindicator for the webs but you can get by with any ship that can fit the proper tank with webs and high tracking guns and then whatever ships that can apply some decent dps.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#13 - 2016-01-03 16:24:50 UTC
Confession time, I read the OP then scanned the rest so some of this may be duplicated information.

Iain Cariaba wrote:
For vets: Running existing PvE as a group gets it done much faster, allowing you to make more isk. Just because it can be done solo does not mean it has to be done solo.

For newbies: Running existing PvE as a group allows them to tackle harder sites, thus making more isk.

For OP: We don't need new content for group PvE. You just need to lose the mindset that PvE is a solo activity unless specifically designed to be group ran.

I agree with the speed aspect and more ISK per hour for vets, however in an overall sense it still cannot reach the ISK per hour level of a good solo mission blitz pilot because travel time and a fleet cannot change that.

In years past it was not uncommon for me to warp into a level 4, shoot all the groups to draw agro and then have as many as 5-6 new / newer players join me in whatever they could fly. However due to the changes CCP made to the NPC Ai and the agro switching that is now common these mission fleets with new players are rare, even fleet runs into level 3 are rare these days.

I think the solo mindset is driven more by changes to the game than it has been by the players themselves.
Blitzing has always been an option, however in the past there was no clear ISK / Hr advantage to doing so over running level 4's solo or in fleets. However the changes to reprocessing, changes to the loot and salvage drops and the addition of the burner missions have all made blitzing the best option for ISK / Hr and blitzing is best done solo. In this regard CCP has done a lot to destroy the player cooperation that they claim they want to foster and they will have to make changes to bring it back. To that end I believe that reducing LP, mission pay and completion time bonuses significantly in all forms of PvE while increasing the bounties paid for red crosses killed could be a big step in making group based PvE more attractive.

Torrent Talon wrote:
This is a sandbox game, you want group PvE create a Corp based on running PvE

And no one would join because no one wants to do group PvE because solo blitzing makes more ISK / LP per hour.
The only exception seems to be the Incursion players, but they do not have any choice the DPS output from the NPC fleets mandates the use of player fleets. And yet even there the ISK / LP per hour rules the day and fleet sizes and make up are tightly controlled to maximize the ISK / LP per hour.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#14 - 2016-01-03 16:33:12 UTC
Who says you can't already do what you do solo now with a group instead?

Notice how missions and DED site gates have ship restrictions but no one's even heard of a player number lockout? It's so either one player can run them solo or a group can if a group wants to. If you want more group PvE, then I'd say you already have both the incentive and the means. Group PvE in Eve doesn't need its own content, PvE in Eve is already able to accommodate a group same as the solo player. All that needs to be really done is for players who genuinely want more group PvE is to simply fleet up with some friends and go talk to an agent or find some sites to run, same thing you do now solo. The tools are already their. CCP doesn't really need to do anything, even though they are already in fact been working on PvE content intended for groups both past and present: Incursions, Drifter Incursions, upper tier wormhole classes too harsh for one ship, etc.

That said, with most people asking for more group centered PvE, what they are really asking for is for group centered rewards. It's the only group-oriented element that's really missing from most PvE activities, and thank the Maker it is so; it's already massively simple and easy to make tons of ISK solo or group. Why do you think L5's are in Low?

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2016-01-03 18:32:05 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Confession time, I read the OP then scanned the rest so some of this may be duplicated information.

Iain Cariaba wrote:
For vets: Running existing PvE as a group gets it done much faster, allowing you to make more isk. Just because it can be done solo does not mean it has to be done solo.

For newbies: Running existing PvE as a group allows them to tackle harder sites, thus making more isk.

For OP: We don't need new content for group PvE. You just need to lose the mindset that PvE is a solo activity unless specifically designed to be group ran.

I agree with the speed aspect and more ISK per hour for vets, however in an overall sense it still cannot reach the ISK per hour level of a good solo mission blitz pilot because travel time and a fleet cannot change that.

In years past it was not uncommon for me to warp into a level 4, shoot all the groups to draw agro and then have as many as 5-6 new / newer players join me in whatever they could fly. However due to the changes CCP made to the NPC Ai and the agro switching that is now common these mission fleets with new players are rare, even fleet runs into level 3 are rare these days.

I think the solo mindset is driven more by changes to the game than it has been by the players themselves.
Blitzing has always been an option, however in the past there was no clear ISK / Hr advantage to doing so over running level 4's solo or in fleets. However the changes to reprocessing, changes to the loot and salvage drops and the addition of the burner missions have all made blitzing the best option for ISK / Hr and blitzing is best done solo. In this regard CCP has done a lot to destroy the player cooperation that they claim they want to foster and they will have to make changes to bring it back. To that end I believe that reducing LP, mission pay and completion time bonuses significantly in all forms of PvE while increasing the bounties paid for red crosses killed could be a big step in making group based PvE more attractive.

Torrent Talon wrote:
This is a sandbox game, you want group PvE create a Corp based on running PvE

And no one would join because no one wants to do group PvE because solo blitzing makes more ISK / LP per hour.
The only exception seems to be the Incursion players, but they do not have any choice the DPS output from the NPC fleets mandates the use of player fleets. And yet even there the ISK / LP per hour rules the day and fleet sizes and make up are tightly controlled to maximize the ISK / LP per hour.


PvE is more than missions. Yeah blitzing lvl 4 solo is a thing. However, for something like NS anomalies, burning them faster means you do more meaning more chances of an escalation...which over time means more escalations.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-01-03 19:51:18 UTC
Why don't we just make PVE more like PVP. Less rats, stronger rats, rats that have capacitors and respond to EWAR, rats that have randomized fits and don't always use the same tactic. Less static scripting and more dynamic scripting.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#17 - 2016-01-04 04:47:58 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Why don't we just make PVE more like PVP. Less rats, stronger rats, rats that have capacitors and respond to EWAR, rats that have randomized fits and don't always use the same tactic. Less static scripting and more dynamic scripting.


This is the direction id also like to take. Ive read ccp are also considering ways to make pve more dynamic and scale with the amount of players running it, but its gonna take a long time to do.

Good way to make soloing missions less efficient is to do to mission rats what they did with the rats in fw sites. Decent size buffers with hefty active tanks.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#18 - 2016-01-04 06:23:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
There's actually a whole host of problems when it comes to introducing group orientated PvE in Eve.

- Trust, or lack thereof, is a pretty big one especially for Eve and excludes things like Pug type groups in any situation where there isn't a lot of safety. Think Low/Null incursions.

- Needing it to be comparable in rewards to existing(Solo) PvE content or else no one will run it. This is probably the 2nd biggest concern and taking a stick to current solo rewards will have an extremely nasty effect on the game and is definitely not recommended.

- Not be soloable(Null Anoms, Burners, etc) or exploitable/alt exploitable(Incursions, WH to a lesser degree and Null anoms) or mass/infinitely farmable(Incusions, FW though they're working on that, Null Anoms).

- Be actually interesting to people outside of a small erm, special group of people. Incursions pay out nice but damn the same 4 or 5 sites doing the same thing with the same ship in the same system listening to the same person saying the same thing every 10-15min for 8h or more... Been there, never doing it again.

- Permanent ship loss, ties in with the trust issue. Don't get me wrong, this shouldn't change at all but compare the ease and fluidity of other MMOs group content (think STO for example) with Eve's current popular group PvE content like incursions. Paranoia and permanent ship loss rules how and where incursions are run and not run and with what they are run. This should at the least be a consideration when suggesting PvE group content. Maybe an opportunity here for game supplied ships and/or scenario based PvE content? Just spit-balling here.

- Ingenuity, drive of the playerbase and the complexity/number of parts, both ship and mechanics, available to said player base and just general sandbox nature of the game already require heavy limitation of what the player can do or bring to the content(Think Burners, WHs, Lv5s, FW, etc.)

There's many more minor and not so minor issues around introducing any kind of group PvE and we can already see where CCP has tried things and failed and how they're desperately trying to make it work with the Drifter Incursions. Also how the player base has reacted and how the game itself has reacted. The players has balked hard enough at the guaranteed ship loss of the drifter DD that CCP has made it so you can speed tank it. The game itself broke so badly due to the AI changes that they had to disable Drifter incursions as it was having performance impacts on the systems they were in. And a lot of what I've seen people want in terms of AI or Dynamic behavior is far beyond what caused those performance issues.

I think one of the biggest opportunities being missed here both by CCP and by the player base is that they're still stuck thinking inside the incursion box. Burners I think is something that they did right because it adds a lot of content with very attractive rewards simply because almost every mission requires it's own fit to do optimally. As a bonus it's borderline impossible to exploit with multiple alts. This means people are undocking in more and different ships, skills previously exclusive to PvP are being trained on PvE only characters and people are being exposed to PvP concepts like OH, Links, Logi and Solo Frigate/Cruiser combat. And it's very focus intensive content meaning you'd be hard pressed to run it on multiple characters at the same time.

Think what kind of group content will continue to push those concepts without falling into the pitfalls above. Who knows, maybe with some fine tuning Drifter incisions will be a stepping stone to the group PvE content we want.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2016-01-04 07:17:00 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
- Needing it to be comparable in rewards to existing(Solo) PvE content or else no one will run it. This is probably the 2nd biggest concern and taking a stick to current solo rewards will have an extremely nasty effect on the game and is definitely not recommended.

People miss a simple solution to this:

In designing the rats to focus fire on one player, CCP is directly reducing the value of having multiple players in the area. If the NPCs would spread out their attacks across all the players in their vicinity, then having more players would have the effect of reducing personal tank requirements in addition to increasing how fast the site goes down and reducing the payout per person, and it would be easier to justify adding another player to the group.

CCP tries to make NPC AI less "exploitable", and this is the wrong method. It polarizes the playerbase--the fewer players who still can exploit the NPCs reap the rewards while most of the playerbase doesn't want to bother with those NPCs because they just lose ships to them and don't make any money. And people still do it solo. Burner missions are the worst here, because once you know how to do it you can make ISK really fast, in good safety. But players who don't own the top-end gear and know exactly what fit to use cannot win and instead will find these sites to be a big waste of time and valuable ships.

Instead they should take a lesson from other MMOs and make the NPCs more exploitable. They should make the enemies respond to player tactics and combinations of players in ways that can be exploited far better by the right teams of players than by one player alone, but one player alone should still be able to exploit the NPCs as well.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#20 - 2016-01-04 07:37:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Anize Oramara
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
- Needing it to be comparable in rewards to existing(Solo) PvE content or else no one will run it. This is probably the 2nd biggest concern and taking a stick to current solo rewards will have an extremely nasty effect on the game and is definitely not recommended.
Burner missions are the worst here, because once you know how to do it you can make ISK really fast, in good safety. But players who don't own the top-end gear and know exactly what fit to use cannot win and instead will find these sites to be a big waste of time and valuable ships.

Please excuse me for selective quoting here but I just want to mention that I agree with you to a degree here. This is part of the reason why I put a burner guide together in the first place. Getting as many people on the same playing field as possible means you can more accurately see what effect a specific PvE activity has on the game. Incursions is a perfect example of this as it has a disproportioned effect on the game compared to the amount of players taking part in it.

The difference between incursions and Burners in this sense is that because incursions is an inherently group activity the know how you talk about is quickly and easily disseminated. With a Solo activity like Burners not so much. Maybe Burners are payout too much LP and too little isk, maybe it pays out too much isk but not enough LP, maybe it's paying out the right amount and maybe it's paying out too little. Without enough datapoints anything anyone says is theory. An interesting thing I have noticed is that SOE LP items value has gone up over the last month or two. This is counter to what certain people have been predicting rather vocally. I don't know why this is happening as it's counter to logic. Need more data to understand why and need more players to take part to get more data. If the rewards aren't good enough you will never get enough people and thus enough data so a small handful profit while no one else makes use of the content.

I would also like to add that an interesting side effect of this has been that gankers started targeting the blingy fits, this lead to people now mostly using T2 fits thus reducing income and tempering the issue you have of top-end gear.

Emergent, dynamic, player driven game play. That's what Eve is all about right? Now imagine if Group PvE can get in on some of that.

Edit: Also I like the idea of how to adjust NPC AI to make it possible to add more people and AI to a site without making it impossible etc.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

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