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Decline in numbers... starting to turn into RAPID!!!

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Indahmawar Fazmarai
#2661 - 2015-12-07 13:24:11 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
what do you mean pve'ers are denied tools to create content?


There is no tools to generate content through PvE, only through PvP tools.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2662 - 2015-12-07 13:28:55 UTC
pvp tools?

i do solo pvp - i fly around and shoot people
i do solo pve - i fly around shooting npc's

everyone has the same tools to create content...so i dont get what you mean, you are denied tools, examples of what tool pvp'ers have which are denied to pve players please.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2663 - 2015-12-07 13:33:56 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

I really don't like how people make excuse after excuse, especially when a clear trend line has been established.

Not entirely sure how we are self serving by posting the decline of our server population, or how the decline or us pointing it out helps CCP. Roll

Whatever makes you feel better I suppose.


Here is the thing, I think no one disputes that there is decline in the numbers. What people are not agreeing on is how steep is the rate of decline and what is the reason. This is very complex and IMO no one are capable of answering this (As PCU does not equalize unique player count for one. and there are a ton of other factors that could affect this)

Where you become self serving is when you couple the decline to lack of focus on PVE (yes, you have done that). You have no way of knowing this, just like the people who claim it is due to too much highsec security....too little nullsec... too much low sec.. Or lack of big fleet fight.. etc. etc.

Where opinionated people become dangerous is when they push for changes based on loose speculations, without really knowing the true mechanisms behind (Thinking you do would be really arrogant and an overestimation of your own mental capabilities, again it is all IMO). The worst case scenario CCP listens in desperation and your fix was the wrong solution. Like what happened with SWG, finally killing the game.

Generally I am also perplexed about your atitude. If your hypothesis is correct that we are nearing the critical mass, your behaviour would equalize to a man on titanic, screaming I told you so... I told you so.
You would be right (not saying you are), but you are still on the boat and it wouldn't matter as you would still drown. So I fight to grasp what is the purpose of your posts? feeling good about what you perceive as being right? I tbh. would prefer if you gracefully and dignified, just would start playing the violin, as the ship is sinking(if it is).

What can one then do? As no figthing on the forums is gonna help, I am just gonna wait and see when the citadels come into play, how many will resub. Even the 8th of december release looks pretty good tbh. we will see.


My take on it is simple. The average "EVE is dying" poster is just someone displaying a bit of anxiety over the idea that something they like to do might go away. It's no different than people trying to predict the end of the world for the last 3000 years lol.

But then there is this fringe minority that is really unhappy, professional complainers basically. If you want a real life comparison, think about any co-worker you've ever had that always complained about work all day long but never complained on pay day lol. They've been saying EVE is dying since 2003 lol.

When EVE was growing, they kept saying "you better change the game to cater to my needs, or the game is in trouble". When the PCU numbers declined, confirmation bias jumped into high gear for them, thus threads like this. They are using the idea of decline as a long awaited lever to manipulate the Developers.

Add in a splash of "you don't care about the people, and by people I mean me and my interests" injustice thinking and you round out the situation of this thread. Some people just like and need to feel like they are on some victimized side (like how CCP is supposed to be all anti-PVE, which i find greatly irritating as someone who focuses mainly on PVE, I wish these people would just speak for themselves instead of pretending to represent all PVErs).

You are not the only one perplexed by the behavior, I've spent many hours thinking "if it's that bad why won't you just sod off" lol. but then I know the answer to that question, it's the same reason why many stay in bad real life relationships: the insane idea that the situation might one day, some how change.
Solecist Project
#2664 - 2015-12-07 13:38:44 UTC
I identify as PvEkin and you offend me, you pvpgender psychopath!

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2665 - 2015-12-07 13:38:46 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
pvp tools?

i do solo pvp - i fly around and shoot people
i do solo pve - i fly around shooting npc's

everyone has the same tools to create content...so i dont get what you mean, you are denied tools, examples of what tool pvp'ers have which are denied to pve players please.


Here you will wade into a world of "us vs them" delusion. In this case it's the idea that CCP doesn't care about PVE and doesn't let PVErs do anything interesting even though WE are the "majority" (forget about the fact that WE didn't appoint this person spokesman for all PVE).

The ironic thing is that they are asking for something that already exists. When you pvp you might have a bit of a wider affect on the EVE world (blown up ships means a market for ship builders for example), but that affect is usually small. When we PVE we are affecting an ENTIRE market and causing stronger ripples across the game, and doing some with less effort.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#2666 - 2015-12-07 13:40:45 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Complete Pile of BS



Yeah, no

How about when Eve was growing I was not posting because CCP was obviously doing what people wanted at the time.

There is no "manipulating" going on here, at least not like on the scale of getting Devs drunk in real life and whispering in their ears... looking at you Jenn

You can also again attack the messengers without a single shred of substance to the discussion (Classic Jenn) but that doesn't stop the numbers reversing course.

Jenn, never change. You literally are the embodiment of everything that is wrong in this game. Self-entitled 0.0 brat that thinks their game age and station in this game empowers them to preach the gospel of eve to the unwashed masses. You talk about people wanting to change the game to protect their interests when that is all you ever do (veiled behind the cloak of "helping")

we call that Hypocrisy

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2667 - 2015-12-07 13:42:25 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Complete Pile of BS



Yeah, no

How about when Eve was growing I was not posting because CCP was obviously doing what people wanted at the time.

There is no "manipulating" going on here, at least not like on the scale of getting Devs drunk in real life and whispering in their ears... looking at you Jenn

You can also again attack the messengers without a single shred of substance to the discussion (Classic Jenn) but that doesn't stop the numbers reversing course.

Jenn, never change. You literally are the embodiment of everything that is wrong in this game. Self-entitled 0.0 brat that thinks their game age and station in this game empowers them to preach the gospel of eve to the unwashed masses. You talk about people wanting to change the game to protect their interests when that is all you ever do (veiled behind the cloak of "helping")

we call that Hypocrisy


This is the kind of post you get when you tell the truth about something and it hits someone really really hard lol.
Solecist Project
#2668 - 2015-12-07 13:43:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
pvp tools?

i do solo pvp - i fly around and shoot people
i do solo pve - i fly around shooting npc's

everyone has the same tools to create content...so i dont get what you mean, you are denied tools, examples of what tool pvp'ers have which are denied to pve players please.


Here you will wade into a world of "us vs them" delusion. In this case it's the idea that CCP doesn't care about PVE and doesn't let PVErs do anything interesting even though WE are the "majority" (forget about the fact that WE didn't appoint this person spokesman for all PVE).

The ironic thing is that they are asking for something that already exists. When you pvp you might have a bit of a wider affect on the EVE world (blown up ships means a market for ship builders for example), but that affect is usually small. When we PVE we are affecting an ENTIRE market and causing stronger ripples across the game, and doing some with less effort.

No offense, but egocentricity is when I say I'll go cook a meal ...
... and you ask why, because you're not hungry.

Wang wants to know from the person she asked and your explanation does not help a bit,
but instead shows attention grabbing and egocentricity. I can't spell that in english.

Seems to be common among you pve people...

Ha! xD


Edit: and then the perfect fit comes to argue with you.

On with the show, folks, I like to read your silly nonsense. :D

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2669 - 2015-12-07 13:46:14 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Complete Pile of BS



Yeah, no

How about when Eve was growing I was not posting because CCP was obviously doing what people wanted at the time.

There is no "manipulating" going on here, at least not like on the scale of getting Devs drunk in real life and whispering in their ears... looking at you Jenn

You can also again attack the messengers without a single shred of substance to the discussion (Classic Jenn) but that doesn't stop the numbers reversing course.

Jenn, never change. You literally are the embodiment of everything that is wrong in this game. Self-entitled 0.0 brat that thinks their game age and station in this game empowers them to preach the gospel of eve to the unwashed masses. You talk about people wanting to change the game to protect their interests when that is all you ever do (veiled behind the cloak of "helping")

we call that Hypocrisy


This is the kind of post you get when you tell the truth about something and it hits someone really really hard lol.


He is a troll.
You are a psychopath.

But one thing I know for sure, you wouldn't know the truth if it was growing on your face.

Neither of you speak for me.
One is a troll, the other clearly has a full blown case of that disease that starts with a capital A and ends in ism.

Have a nice day
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2670 - 2015-12-07 13:48:50 UTC
King Aires wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Complete Pile of BS



Yeah, no

How about when Eve was growing I was not posting because CCP was obviously doing what people wanted at the time.

There is no "manipulating" going on here, at least not like on the scale of getting Devs drunk in real life and whispering in their ears... looking at you Jenn

You can also again attack the messengers without a single shred of substance to the discussion (Classic Jenn) but that doesn't stop the numbers reversing course.

Jenn, never change. You literally are the embodiment of everything that is wrong in this game. Self-entitled 0.0 brat that thinks their game age and station in this game empowers them to preach the gospel of eve to the unwashed masses. You talk about people wanting to change the game to protect their interests when that is all you ever do (veiled behind the cloak of "helping")

we call that Hypocrisy


This is the kind of post you get when you tell the truth about something and it hits someone really really hard lol.


He is a troll.
You are a psychopath.

But one thing I know for sure, you wouldn't know the truth if it was growing on your face.

Neither of you speak for me.
One is a troll, the other clearly has a full blown case of that disease that starts with a capital A and ends in ism.

Have a nice day

Erm, when did I claim to speak for you?
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2671 - 2015-12-07 14:16:14 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

The case for PvE is a bit stronger than that.

First, CCP was kind enough to provide some actual info and confirm what we already knew: Most people pay a subscription to do PvE and they barely PvP.
Second, CCP informed on something we suspected: an ample majority of new players only do PvE.
Third, CCP also confirmed another known fact: people who PvE stay subscribed for shorter tenures.
And fourth, CCP also stated that there is an issue with PvE players who quit.

So we have a solid case: numbers go down, PvE is going down, PvE is the new player's favorite activity and PvErs are a majority of the subscribers.

Now, what CCP is attempting is to retain PvP players and improve the amount of PvE players who become PvP players. CCP have decided that PvP is more relevant than PvE to their long term interests, and so they're focused on PvP... althought they made that decission BEFORE having actual data on the PvE / PvP subscriber ratio.

This is why some PvE players think that CCP is wrong to ignore us, or give up on us, and it would be wiser if they worked to retain us and put our gamepaly on par with PvP.

What makes EVE unique is content generation. Your actions matter and yadda yadda. Yet PvErs are denied tools to do that unless they PvP. There is no reason for this.

There are many ways to compete. As I've said many times, chess is as much a mean to PvP as boxing. Yet not in EVE.


This is where we disagree, and you in my opinion are wrong.

The trends you see are not proof at all, but patterns your brain picks up on, be they true or not (objectively speaking). Do people not know what proof means anymore?

In these forums you can find people everywhere claiming a correlation between nerf of highsec and loss of subscriptions. There are even nice graph made, that I am sure you have seen. Does this mean they are right? There is a correlation.. and charts... so it must be true... right?

They are on just as thin ice as you. There could be a lot of different complex reasons behind it, that you do not see. You need to accept this.

Your inability to understand on how bad a foundation, you make your statements are what keeps these trench war discussions going here on the forums. you cannot know.

The other side does the same. You have no hard proof, only speculations on trends, no matter how much you think otherwise (Here i think of reallife standarts for proof, not internet "lawyer" levels).

But you have your idea of what you want, and use every possibility to push your point of view through. Completely disregarding the possibility you could be wrong and send the game in a direction that leads to it shuts down. If everybody would just chill and not toxify the forums with unproven die-hard points of view this would be a nice place ...

wait and see how the big changes that are coming will affect the retention of the game. You huffing and puffing claims, does not change anything in this game. But you know this already, which is why you are so negative.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#2672 - 2015-12-07 16:22:09 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

The case for PvE is a bit stronger than that.

First, CCP was kind enough to provide some actual info and confirm what we already knew: Most people pay a subscription to do PvE and they barely PvP.
Second, CCP informed on something we suspected: an ample majority of new players only do PvE.
Third, CCP also confirmed another known fact: people who PvE stay subscribed for shorter tenures.
And fourth, CCP also stated that there is an issue with PvE players who quit.

So we have a solid case: numbers go down, PvE is going down, PvE is the new player's favorite activity and PvErs are a majority of the subscribers.

Now, what CCP is attempting is to retain PvP players and improve the amount of PvE players who become PvP players. CCP have decided that PvP is more relevant than PvE to their long term interests, and so they're focused on PvP... althought they made that decission BEFORE having actual data on the PvE / PvP subscriber ratio.

This is why some PvE players think that CCP is wrong to ignore us, or give up on us, and it would be wiser if they worked to retain us and put our gamepaly on par with PvP.

What makes EVE unique is content generation. Your actions matter and yadda yadda. Yet PvErs are denied tools to do that unless they PvP. There is no reason for this.

There are many ways to compete. As I've said many times, chess is as much a mean to PvP as boxing. Yet not in EVE.


This is where we disagree, and you in my opinion are wrong.

The trends you see are not proof at all, but patterns your brain picks up on, be they true or not (objectively speaking). Do people not know what proof means anymore?

In these forums you can find people everywhere claiming a correlation between nerf of highsec and loss of subscriptions. There are even nice graph made, that I am sure you have seen. Does this mean they are right? There is a correlation.. and charts... so it must be true... right?

They are on just as thin ice as you. There could be a lot of different complex reasons behind it, that you do not see. You need to accept this.

Your inability to understand on how bad a foundation, you make your statements are what keeps these trench war discussions going here on the forums. you cannot know.

The other side does the same. You have no hard proof, only speculations on trends, no matter how much you think otherwise (Here i think of reallife standarts for proof, not internet "lawyer" levels).

But you have your idea of what you want, and use every possibility to push your point of view through. Completely disregarding the possibility you could be wrong and send the game in a direction that leads to it shuts down. If everybody would just chill and not toxify the forums with unproven die-hard points of view this would be a nice place ...

wait and see how the big changes that are coming will affect the retention of the game. You huffing and puffing claims, does not change anything in this game. But you know this already, which is why you are so negative.



Put all the graphs and speculation as to the reasons why the numbers are still dropping aside.

Let us forget or ignore all data as it isn't 100% available anyways.

Now, simply apply logic. CCP has been doing X for 5 years now and the numbers have been decreasing.

Should:

A) CCP double down like you propose and continue doing X because "we don't want those people anyways" or "CCP needs even more X"

B) Go back to doing Y, like they did in 2010 that brought massive growth to the game

C) Do Z, something completely different

You pick. But I find it odd that I am the supposed status quo person when all I am proposing is they stop the path they started in 2011 and go back to content creation instead of balance and nerf.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2673 - 2015-12-07 16:28:02 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:


You pick. But I find it odd that I am the supposed status quo person when all I am proposing is they stop the path they started in 2011 and go back to content creation instead of balance and nerf.


When i say you support the status quo I'm talking about your (ironically backwards) support for the PVE imbalances (that you deny exist). I say Ironic because those imblances actually benefit null sec (because null sec alts make up a big chunk of that "1.5% on any given day"). That's a separate issue.

What you want CCP to do in this regard is nothing less than return to Jesus Feature Theme-park mess that set the stage for a lot of the problems we have today. No thanks, EVE Online is fine even if it did shed a few non-contributing high sec hermit casuals and alts due to high plex prices.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#2674 - 2015-12-07 16:29:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
sero Hita wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

The case for PvE is a bit stronger than that.

First, CCP was kind enough to provide some actual info and confirm what we already knew: Most people pay a subscription to do PvE and they barely PvP.
Second, CCP informed on something we suspected: an ample majority of new players only do PvE.
Third, CCP also confirmed another known fact: people who PvE stay subscribed for shorter tenures.
And fourth, CCP also stated that there is an issue with PvE players who quit.

So we have a solid case: numbers go down, PvE is going down, PvE is the new player's favorite activity and PvErs are a majority of the subscribers.

Now, what CCP is attempting is to retain PvP players and improve the amount of PvE players who become PvP players. CCP have decided that PvP is more relevant than PvE to their long term interests, and so they're focused on PvP... althought they made that decission BEFORE having actual data on the PvE / PvP subscriber ratio.

This is why some PvE players think that CCP is wrong to ignore us, or give up on us, and it would be wiser if they worked to retain us and put our gamepaly on par with PvP.

What makes EVE unique is content generation. Your actions matter and yadda yadda. Yet PvErs are denied tools to do that unless they PvP. There is no reason for this.

There are many ways to compete. As I've said many times, chess is as much a mean to PvP as boxing. Yet not in EVE.


This is where we disagree, and you in my opinion are wrong.

The trends you see are not proof at all, but patterns your brain picks up on, be they true or not (objectively speaking). Do people not know what proof means anymore?

In these forums you can find people everywhere claiming a correlation between nerf of highsec and loss of subscriptions. There are even nice graph made, that I am sure you have seen. Does this mean they are right? There is a correlation.. and charts... so it must be true... right?

They are on just as thin ice as you. There could be a lot of different complex reasons behind it, that you do not see. You need to accept this.

Your inability to understand on how bad a foundation, you make your statements are what keeps these trench war discussions going here on the forums. you cannot know.

The other side does the same. You have no hard proof, only speculations on trends, no matter how much you think otherwise (Here i think of reallife standarts for proof, not internet "lawyer" levels).

But you have your idea of what you want, and use every possibility to push your point of view through. Completely disregarding the possibility you could be wrong and send the game in a direction that leads to it shuts down. If everybody would just chill and not toxify the forums with unproven die-hard points of view this would be a nice place ...

wait and see how the big changes that are coming will affect the retention of the game. You huffing and puffing claims, does not change anything in this game. But you know this already, which is why you are so negative.


See, this is a discussion forum. If you don't want to discuss, go to reddit or whatever.

I already lost a war when CCP decided that they wouldn't implement WiS in incremental steps rather abandoned it, and now I am waging another lost war so CCP recognizes EVE as a PvE game where they're mismanaging the potential of the massive PvE population just because PvP is shinier.

PvE content is stale because it's static because it depends on what CCP does and CCP were such bunch of idiots that didn't had PvE development tools until last year... that's how much PvE mattered to CCP despite it is earning them half their income. So, either CCP hires level designers and launches new PvE each patch, or just face that PvE needs the kind of dynamic content generation which only players can provide.

Excelling and putting a lot of cunning and effort in PvE should be rewarded, at least, to equal degree than excelling at PvP is rewarded.

EVE is a sandbox where 62% of the population doesn't uses the provided construction tools. CCP stance is half pitying them and half despising them, claiming that "there are some tools, should use them". Yet players can't use the tools that don't exist, and that is CCP's sole fault to not develop them.

Last but not least, independently of PvE, either CCP comes up soon with new reasons to join EVE or the game is going to die from lack of fresh blood.

Doing more of the same and selling the game again to the same people who bought it in the past is a recipe to disaster. It's "customer oriented development" of the worst kind, and personally it's the reason why I think that CCP Seagull is a tragedy for EVE. Instead of finding and exploiting untapped customers, she's lead the game into a 2 years chase of past glories to keep the old guard happy.

The ugly truth about all what CCP plans to launch in 2016 is this: what people didn't bought in 2003-2015, they won't buy it in 2016. So, who's gonna buy the game...?
Solecist Project
#2675 - 2015-12-07 16:31:21 UTC

Best thread right after the old WiS thread ...
... almost as good as the classic threads about suicide ganking.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2676 - 2015-12-07 16:35:53 UTC
still waiting for these examples of tools denied to pve'ers Roll

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#2677 - 2015-12-07 16:36:39 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:

Best thread right after the old WiS thread ...
... almost as good as the classic threads about suicide ganking.


Certainly it's funnier than playing the game, which I haven't done since september. And if weren't for CCP's trickery with subscription renewal, probably I wouldn't even be subscribed now. Roll
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2678 - 2015-12-07 16:37:52 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

I already lost a war when CCP decided that they wouldn't implement WiS in incremental steps rather abandoned it, and now I am waging another lost war so CCP recognizes EVE as a PvE game where they're mismanaging the potential of the massive PvE population just because PvP is shinier.


You will always lose wars you are on the wrong side of lol. WiS was an attempt to expand a niche game beyond the niche it was successful in, the old "gain more players of a different type" gambit game developers sometimes do. I've seen it a lot and it never works.

The reason you are losing the PVE war is because there is no war. I'm as PVE centric player, I accepted on Day 1 that EVE is a pvp game, and adapted my approach to the game to fit in with that (rather than your approach of "ignore what the game is and expect the developers to shift focus because you say so" lol). It's that understanding that lets me be happy with the game even though I prefer to shoot NPCS for loot rather than people for lulz. You will always be unhappy with what EVE is.



Quote:


The ugly truth about all what CCP plans to launch in 2016 is this: what people didn't bought in 2003-2015, they won't buy it in 2016. So, who's gonna buy the game...?


People like me.
Solecist Project
#2679 - 2015-12-07 16:39:51 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
still waiting for these examples of tools denied to pve'ers Roll

Quoting for emphasis.

Indah please!

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#2680 - 2015-12-07 16:40:20 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
still waiting for these examples of tools denied to pve'ers Roll


My point is that there's no content generation tools based on PvE. Why you ask examples of things that don't exist?